Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

We are Europeans living near Birmingham and have often business and personal
friends visiting us. In recent months, we have heard from 2 couples and
several single travelers that European travel agencies are warning to stay
away from Delta (long waiting times at check-in and poor service,
particulaly eastbound over the Atlantic) and Atlanta ( very slow arrival
clearance with baggage that has to be recovered, handled and checked in
again. Long lines in front of uninterested customs people etc.)
Why are Atlanta and Delta singled out?

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

Well, it confirms my own experience. I have been flying out of Atlanta to
Frankfurt/Germany quite frequently for more then 15 years. AFAIK, Delta has
declared bankruptcy and seems to operate with a minimum of service persons.
I have switched to Lufthansa for most of my travel to Europe, but last week
I tried Delta's new service to Düsseldorf / Germany. Check-in in Atlanta
took 1.5 hours just to get the luggage weighted and then you still get your
luggage back and have to go to another counter and wait again! During the
long night flight not a single flight attendent showed up to even offer a
cup of water! I used to love Delta........


"Herb Ludwig" wrote in message
...
We are Europeans living near Birmingham and have often business and
personal friends visiting us. In recent months, we have heard from 2
couples and several single travelers that European travel agencies are
warning to stay away from Delta (long waiting times at check-in and poor
service, particulaly eastbound over the Atlantic) and Atlanta ( very slow
arrival clearance with baggage that has to be recovered, handled and
checked in again. Long lines in front of uninterested customs people etc.)
Why are Atlanta and Delta singled out?

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

Why are Atlanta and Delta singled out?

Delta being in bankruptcy probably has something to do with it.
Atlanta being the busiest airport in the country also probably has
something to do with it. If possible, connect through Cincinnati
(CVG), as it is much less busy than Atlanta (ATL). The queues
at CVG are not near as long.


Pete

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

Some of those samaritan-type City of Atlanta downtown helpers
might/oughtabe re-positioned to the airport during the busiest times if
the situation is as cruddy as it appears to be, though I suppose the
regular employees whom are being layed-off or kept from getting
over-time would not agree.
Hey, it's only an idea--not necessarily realistic nor adaptive to
Delta's crisis situation. I think the State should subsidize 'em in any
legal, helpful ways we can, though I'll fly Air Tran to save a buck,
and, helle yes, I'm a fool-hypocrite.


Pete wrote:
Why are Atlanta and Delta singled out?

Delta being in bankruptcy probably has something to do with it.
Atlanta being the busiest airport in the country also probably has
something to do with it. If possible, connect through Cincinnati
(CVG), as it is much less busy than Atlanta (ATL). The queues
at CVG are not near as long.


Pete

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

In article ,
Herb Ludwig wrote:

In recent months, we have heard from 2 couples and
several single travelers that European travel agencies are warning to stay
away from Delta (long waiting times at check-in and poor service,
particulaly eastbound over the Atlantic) and Atlanta ( very slow arrival
clearance with baggage that has to be recovered, handled and checked in
again. Long lines in front of uninterested customs people etc.)

Delta is a fairly mediocre airline, but certainly no worse than
European carriers. As for Atlanta, it's a model of efficiency and
good customer service compared to a big European airport (with very
few exceptions like Schiphol).

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

My 3c worth:

Ever since reading this group I can' stop wondring about the number of
posts suggesting that Airline X is worth less than all others, or
Airport B is worth less than all olthers.

Guys, please understand that you are reporting individual experiences,
and even if you flew, say, once a month, they will remain individual
experiences. Only a well-designed and impartial survey could really
differentiate between airlines and airports Such surveys do exist,
although I don't have a link at hand.

In the particular case of airline and and airport, Delta is no worse
than any other major US airline; bankrupcy or no bankrupcy. I was
recently on an Air France flight where the flight attendants closed
themselves off behind curtains immediately after serving dinner and
were very angry if someone tried to lift the curtain to ask them for
something. "Don't you see we are having dinner?" was one response. The
other was "Don't you see we are having rest?" Some crews are better
than others within one airline -- I had previously experienced very
good service on AF, so I really won't generalize on this single
experience.

As for checking in luggage, yes, you have to get it weighted and then
you have to carry it yourself for TSA inspection. But this has nothing
to do with Delta -- it's a federal requirement. All other airlines in
the US are currently obliged to do the same.

So guys, tried to grow up a little and look at things from a distance.
There is no question that the overall standard of air travel have
declined immensely in recent years. But singling out particular
airlines and/or airports really needs some solid statistical data.
Otherwise, it just serves the purpose of venting your individual
frustrations, however justified, and is thus completely unhelpful to
other members of this group.

Again, this was my 3c worth.

jrk


Hanna Lahy wrote:
Well, it confirms my own experience. I have been flying out of Atlanta to
Frankfurt/Germany quite frequently for more then 15 years. AFAIK, Delta has
declared bankruptcy and seems to operate with a minimum of service persons.
I have switched to Lufthansa for most of my travel to Europe, but last week
I tried Delta's new service to Düsseldorf / Germany. Check-in in Atlanta
took 1.5 hours just to get the luggage weighted and then you still get your
luggage back and have to go to another counter and wait again! During the
long night flight not a single flight attendent showed up to even offer a
cup of water! I used to love Delta........


"Herb Ludwig" wrote in message
...
We are Europeans living near Birmingham and have often business and
personal friends visiting us. In recent months, we have heard from 2
couples and several single travelers that European travel agencies are
warning to stay away from Delta (long waiting times at check-in and poor
service, particulaly eastbound over the Atlantic) and Atlanta ( very slow
arrival clearance with baggage that has to be recovered, handled and
checked in again. Long lines in front of uninterested customs people etc.)
Why are Atlanta and Delta singled out?

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

wrote:
In the particular case of airline and and airport, Delta is no worse
than any other major US airline; bankrupcy or no bankrupcy. I was
recently on an Air France flight where...

= I agree. Extrapolating one bad experience, like one marriage, to
an entire fleet (or gender) don't make a whole lot of sense, without
a valid statistical sample.

As for checking in luggage, yes, you have to get it weighted and then
you have to carry it yourself for TSA inspection. But this has nothing
to do with Delta -- it's a federal requirement. All other airlines in
the
US are currently obliged to do the same.

= At Virgin Atlantic in Orlando, I had to hand carry my luggage out the
door we just came in to hand it off to a screener. With Virgin, like
most
airlines, allowing online check-in, at least we didn't have to wait in
the
1.5-hour line. It was well worth the inconveniece of finding an
internet
service at my destination for our return flight. Besides, that way, I
could
lord it over the fools in the long-line and feel superior to them, even
tho
I was in the same sardine-class cabin.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

Herb Ludwig wrote:
We are Europeans living near Birmingham and have often business and personal
friends visiting us. In recent months, we have heard from 2 couples and
several single travelers that European travel agencies are warning to stay
away from Delta (long waiting times at check-in and poor service,
particulaly eastbound over the Atlantic) and Atlanta ( very slow arrival
clearance with baggage that has to be recovered, handled and checked in
again. Long lines in front of uninterested customs people etc.)
Why are Atlanta and Delta singled out?


The procedure of rechecking baggage when connecting from an
International flight is normal all over the US. You don't usually have
to do anything other than hand the bag to an airline employee just past
Customs. It is normally already tagged with your destination.

One thing that confuses me.. You indicate you are near Birmingham, but
you posted from an AT&T dialup address in ATLANTA,
240.131.77.12.in-addr.arpa 240.131.77.12.in-addr.arpa name =
240.atlanta-04-05rs.ga.dial-access.att.net.

Are you sure you aren't just some redneck in Atlanta that just doesn't
like tourists?

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

In article .net,
Hilary wrote:

It's not clear whether DL will keep flying

It seems very clear that DL will keep flying, bankruptcy or no
bankruptcy.

and therefore people booking a
year in advance may want to consider other alternatives.

Why on earth would anyone book an air ticket a year in advance?

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

It's not clear whether DL will keep flying

It seems very clear that DL will keep flying, bankruptcy or no
bankruptcy.

Since you obviously can foretell the future, why haven't you made a
fortune in the stock market? No, it is not "clear" that Delta will keep
flying. It is likely but hardly clear. If the price of oil takes another
upwards leap, a few airlines will be in trouble.

and therefore people booking a
year in advance may want to consider other alternatives.

Why on earth would anyone book an air ticket a year in advance?

Booking a frequent flier award ticket far in advance may be the only
way to ensure getting specific dates.


Pete

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

In article .net,
Hilary wrote:

Why on earth would anyone book an air ticket a year in advance?

Many people do. People who need certain dates, who get a good fare and
want to lock in

How can you possibly get a good fare a year in advance? I've never
seen a fare sale for more than 6 months out. Even on routes where
there is predictable, high demand (e.g., US to India for Christmas),
you'll never get a good price a year in advance.

I used to have people return from one flight and
immediately book the same for next year to get in before the price
increases.

For a flight 12 months from now, the price will drop first before
increasing.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

In article , Pete wrote:

It seems very clear that DL will keep flying, bankruptcy or no
bankruptcy.

Since you obviously can foretell the future, why haven't you made a
fortune in the stock market?

How can I make a fortune in the stock market off of my prediction that
Delta will still be flying a year from now?

No, it is not "clear" that Delta will keep flying.

It's blindingly clear to me.

Why on earth would anyone book an air ticket a year in advance?

Booking a frequent flier award ticket far in advance may be the only
way to ensure getting specific dates.

Good point. I thought she was talking about paid tickets, though.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

In article .com,
wrote:

Why on earth would anyone book an air ticket a year in advance?

I would have for a cruise I am taking in April of 2007. I say this, as
I came across a fare of $191 + taxes for DEN-FLL or DEN-MIA on AA. I
figured that fare would not last and more than likely would go up in
price.

I doubt very much it would go up. It seems about the average for
this route, and there will be all kinds of sales between now and then.
Even now, I see that US Airways/America West are selling DEN-MIA for
$191 + taxes for this coming July, August, and September.

Also was locked into certain dates and wanted to make sure I got
a flight at a good price. I had to wait a few weeks before I could book
this fare (can only book 330 days in advance) and then I had to fly
DEN-FLL and MIA-DEN to get this fare.

Had you waited, you would have gotten a better price and better flights.
Of course, there is a lot to be said for the convenience of booking
and forgetting, even if you overpay for the ticket.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

I dont know about a year in advance but if you want to get decent fares
to some destinations like India at peak seasons like the last 2 weeks
of december, you need to book at least 9 months ahead.

Quark

VS wrote:
In article .net,
Hilary wrote:

Why on earth would anyone book an air ticket a year in advance?

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

Had you waited, you would have gotten a better price and better flights.
Of course, there is a lot to be said for the convenience of booking
and forgetting, even if you overpay for the ticket.

Possibly, but the last time we took a cruise out of Fort Lauderdale the
fares were never this low for DEN-FLL or DEN-MIA and I started looking
in September for a cruise in February. The cheaper fares were only
available on certain days and that not work with our cruise schedule.
Also just can't see the fare going too much lower than $216 with taxes.
Of course with Southwest flying from DEN we might have gotten a better
fare, but at this point their cheapest fare is around $280 with taxes.
Who knows maybe their fares will go down in another few months when the
allow reservations to be made for April of 2007. Just know that $216
with taxes seems like a good deal to me and can live with fact the fare
might go down by a few dollars.

Michael

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

No, it is not "clear" that Delta will keep flying.

It's blindingly clear to me.

Only because you are too young to remember Eastern.


Pete

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

I used to have people return from one flight and immediately
book the same for next year to get in before the price increases.

That's not literally true, is it? Most (all?) Americans airlines seem
to have 330 day (or thereabouts) limits on advance buying. Of
course, maybe you are referring to a 4+ week vacation, in which
case you literally could book immediately for next year.


Pete

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

In article , Pete wrote:

No, it is not "clear" that Delta will keep flying.

It's blindingly clear to me.

Only because you are too young to remember Eastern.

I remember Eastern and PanAm very well. I don't see many similarities
between Eastern and Delta. If anything, Delta pilots learned a good
lesson from their ALPA colleagues at Eastern.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

In article .net,
Hilary wrote:

Some airlines don't really do fare sales except on new routes, so if
you're flying an established route you gain nothing by waiting.

What airlines are those? I've seen a few turd-world airlines that have
fixed fares, but in the US and Europe every airline I can think of has
fares that vary all the time, starting from high, then getting lower,
then increasing again as time gets closer.

On popular routes - like UK-India or UK-Australia at Christmas - you need
to book as far in advance as possible to get the cheaper seats because
they sold out very quickly. 9+ months was normal for those.

Even for those, I find it very hard to believe that booking 12 months
out is the best strategy. 6 to 9 months sounds about right, but not
12 months.

For a flight 12 months from now, the price will drop first before
increasing.

Nope. Most airlines release an entire year's fares at once.

Give me a route where you think today's price for a flight in June
2007 is the best price one can possibly get, i.e., there won't be any
time between now and then when the same seat on the same flight will
be selling for less.

Now, some people don't really care about the price, and just want to
book and forget instead of hunting for the best deal. Even then I
doubt very much that booking 12 months in advance is a good strategy.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

because you're a douchebag

"Herb Ludwig" wrote in message
...
We are Europeans living near Birmingham and have often business and
personal friends visiting us. In recent months, we have heard from 2
couples and several single travelers that European travel agencies are
warning to stay away from Delta (long waiting times at check-in and poor
service, particulaly eastbound over the Atlantic) and Atlanta ( very slow
arrival clearance with baggage that has to be recovered, handled and
checked in again. Long lines in front of uninterested customs people etc.)
Why are Atlanta and Delta singled out?

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:00:05 -0500, Hilary
wrote:

As early as possible. People travelling to Australia and NZ for Christmas
and New Year often booked the moment the dates became available, otherwise
they lost the dates they wanted at the cheapest fares.

That makes no sense from the airlines perspective, if the fares are in
such demand, why do they offer any cheap flights?

Jim.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:34:07 -0500, Hilary
wrote:

As early as possible. People travelling to Australia and NZ for Christmas
and New Year often booked the moment the dates became available, otherwise
they lost the dates they wanted at the cheapest fares.

That makes no sense from the airlines perspective, if the fares are in
such demand, why do they offer any cheap flights?

It's not "cheap" flights it's "cheapest". There is always a range of
fares, but in some cases the range is wider than others.

So why have a range at all, if these flights sell out immediately? it
seems rather strange, anything that sells out immediately normally
suggests you can charge a higher price, especially if it's selling out
immediately 11 months ahead!

Jim.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

In article .net,
Hilary wrote:

What airlines are those? I've seen a few turd-world airlines that have
fixed fares, but in the US and Europe every airline I can think of has
fares that vary all the time, starting from high, then getting lower,
then increasing again as time gets closer.

The basic fares don't change. They have specials which come and go

My point exactly. Nobody who wants to save money books 12 months in
advance, because there will always be some sale later on when the same
flights will be selling cheaper.

As early as possible. People travelling to Australia and NZ for Christmas
and New Year often booked the moment the dates became available, otherwise
they lost the dates they wanted at the cheapest fares.

I don't believe you. The cheapest Christmas tickets to Australia and
NZ are usually sold in the spring, not previous Christmas. In any case,
you were talking about Delta. Does Delta fly to Australia or NZ?

(I've also seen people do the same for trips to Florida during the
summer: June 30th was a very popular date and savy travellers booked very
early.)

Are you saying that July is the best time to buy tickets to Florida
for next June 30? This is nonsense. Let's do a little experiment.
Give me a route to Florida. I bet that tickets on that route for June
30, 2007, will be cheaper in November than in August.

Give me a route where you think today's price for a flight in June
2007 is the best price one can possibly get, i.e., there won't be any
time between now and then when the same seat on the same flight will
be selling for less.

As I said before, it depends on the airline and route.

So I am asking you - which airline and which route? Frankly, I just
don't believe you. Buying tickets 12 months in advance makes no
sense whatsoever. It is possible that there are some Delta routes
where prices only go up, but I have yet to see them.

People with limited holiday, or with needs for specific dates,
or people booking for very busy routes will all tend to book as early as
they can.

People do all sorts of stupid things. Most people know very little
about airfare pricing and yield management. They assume that airfares
are fixed - once the cheap bucket empties out, only expensive tickets
are left. It's usually the other way around. Airlines try to sell
midpriced and expensive tickets first, then resort to sales a few
months out, then jack up prices again 21 days before the flight.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:37:29 -0500, Hilary
wrote:

So why have a range at all, if these flights sell out immediately? it
seems rather strange, anything that sells out immediately normally
suggests you can charge a higher price, especially if it's selling out
immediately 11 months ahead!

The cheaper end of the range sell out very quickly for the most popular
dates.

So why do they offer tickets that sell out very quickly? it doesn't
make sense to offer such fares.

The point of the range is that some people won't travel at all
rather than pay fares higher than a certain amount - these people book
early to get the better fares.

You don't need to cater for such people if your plane is going to be
full anyway.

Some people don't/can't book early for
whatever reason, and they end up paying the higher fares. This way the
airlines cover all their bases.

But you keep saying that the plane will fill up anyway at these peak
times, if that's the case there's no point offering the discounts
early, they might aswell wait until a few months later if the seats
really aren't selling.

Jim.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

In article .net,
Hilary wrote:

Not all flights have specials, as I said before.

So far, you haven't given me any flights that don't have specials.
You say that EI doesn't have specials, but I don't believe you.
Just type ``Aer Lingus sale'' into Google. Next time I see them
advertising a fare sale, I'll make sure to post it here.

Are you saying that July is the best time to buy tickets to Florida
for next June 30? This is nonsense. Let's do a little experiment.
Give me a route to Florida. I bet that tickets on that route for June
30, 2007, will be cheaper in November than in August.

Let me recap slowly. Schools in Scotland break up at the end of June.
1st July is when the prices jump to peak-season prices. There are only a
limited number of seats on each date. People who *don't* want their kids
to miss school (or who are teachers themselves) and *do* want good prices
book as early as possible because otherwise it costs them more later.

Give me a specific route. How about GLA-MCO? You can bet your bippy
that GLA-MCO fares for travel on June 30, 2007, will be cheaper in
the winter than when they are first released in July 2006.

So I am asking you - which airline and which route? Frankly, I just
don't believe you. Buying tickets 12 months in advance makes no
sense whatsoever. It is possible that there are some Delta routes
where prices only go up, but I have yet to see them.

I already gave you an example earlier: EI. Any route, but most
particularly their transatlantics.

Are you saying that EI does not drop prices on transatlantic flights?
That the cheapest transatlantic fare on EI is the one you can buy 12
months in advance? I don't believe you. Again, give me a specific
flight and fare for May 2007. I promise you that there will be a
cheaper fare available on the very same flight between now and next May.

Buying tickets early may not make
sense to you but there are many reasons why other people do this, and they
are valid reasons. Just because you don't agree with them or have more
flexibility or different priorities does not mean these people don't
exist.

Alright, you convinced me that such people exist. What they do doesn't
make an ounce of sense, but I can see why some people would rather pay
more to book it early so that they don't have to worry about it later.
Even then, lots of things can happen in 12 months... Plans change,
airline schedules change, airfares are guaranteed to drop, etc. etc.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

Jim Ley wrote:
So why have a range at all, if these flights sell out immediately? it
seems rather strange, anything that sells out immediately normally
suggests you can charge a higher price, especially if it's selling out
immediately 11 months ahead!

And just because there won't be a seat sale on those dates doesn't mean
that the flight won't have advance booking standard return fares that
are much cheaper than full fare Y class tickets. (aka: what used to be
called APEX fares, standard return tickets booked 14 to 21 days in advance).

When they populate a flight that far ahead, they offer standard/default
booking classes and fares. And even on domestic routes because you often
have to combine a domestic fare to an intl one and often this requires
both be booked in the same booking class.

So, lets say they populate the christmas season for LAX-SYD, they may
offer some 50 seats in V class (standard advance purchase return fare).
Once those 50 seats are gone, you're left with more expensive fares.
Since this is a busy season, you can't expect seat sales to appear later
on, so you want to snatch enough V class seats to fit your family on
that flight before they are all gone. (note: airlines may use different
booking class for standard apex fares, but V is fairly common).

However, airlines don't have to announce a seat sale to "lower prices".
Say the 50 V class tickets sell out 11 months before the flight; 2
months before the flight, the airline may have sold only those 50 seats
and none other, so they may reallocate some Y seats into V seats to
allow more people to book in V. But with experience, an airline will do
initial allocations based on past demand and may not have to
dramatically adjust capacity for each booking class in a major way for
such a busy season.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

Hilary wrote:
airlines cover all their bases. They get good advance bookings (which
*all* airlines prefer) but don't lose too much money with them.

Actually, with wild fluctuation in petrol prices, airlines have lost
money. Say a passenger bought a ticket before airlines raised prices and
instituted fuel surcharges. He may have paid in advance, but his ticket
won't cover all the fuel cost increases that have happened since.

Airlines with serious hedging are much more protected against this
since, at the time they sell a ticket, they already know what the cost
of their fuel will be at the time the passenger actually travels.
Airlines without serous hedging cannot product what the actual cost of
transporting that passenger will be a year from nwo when he shows up at
the airport.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

VS wrote:
My point exactly. Nobody who wants to save money books 12 months in
advance, because there will always be some sale later on when the same
flights will be selling cheaper.

Hillary has shown you examples where this is NOT the case. There are
many periods where it is know that there will NOT be any seat sales. In
such cases, the initial capacity allocations don't change much and the
trick is to get your reservation early so that you can get the lowest
available fare before they are all sold.

If you are going to be travelling in a off season, then yes, you are
pertectly correct that the odds are high that a seat sale with lower
prices will be announced a couple of months (or less) before the flight,
so it is then not the best solution to book a year ahead.

Seat sales happen in seasons/periods where there haven't been enough
people who bought tickets at the standard fares. So they announce a
lower fare to try to attract more people.

Now, if they is gong to be a bird flue epidemic in Australia during
Christmas, then it is quite possible that the airlines would all
announce heavily discounted fares to try to get people to go. In such a
case, you would have lost out by buying a standard ticket a year before.
But the odds of that are fairly low and you cannot predict such an occurance.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

Another aspect of advanced fares.

If you buy a RTW ticket, you will want to have premilinary bookings on
each route in order to validate that your itinerary is valid under RTW
rules. While some of the later segments can be OPEN-DATED, they prefer
if you can book everything. For this to happen, flights as far ahead as
possible must have seats available in standard booking classes.


Note however that the above doesn't actually require the airline publish
fares for every booking class that is available. Bit it does require
the airline allocate seats in the booking classes that are valid for the
RTW fare.


There are enough examples where booking a year early is desirable or
necessary. There are examples where this is truly the only way to get
the cheapest fares on a route during a busy season where capacity is limited.

Say you have a 400 seat aircraft. And experience tells you that about
300 are desperate enough to pay full fare in order to travel just before
christmas. That still leaves 100 seats. So they offer apex V class fares
a year ahead, and people first flow to those, which sell out quickly.
You get 100 people who get cheaper fares with the caveat that they paid
a year early for that privilege. And later on, you'll get 300 people who
will pay the full fares. End result: full aircraft.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

VS is a know-it-all troll. Just put him in your filters and be done
with it.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

In article , nobody wrote:

My point exactly. Nobody who wants to save money books 12 months in
advance, because there will always be some sale later on when the same
flights will be selling cheaper.

Hillary has shown you examples where this is NOT the case.

Actually, she didn't. She mentioned something about Aer Lingus never
lowering fares (clearly bogus, as you can find plenty of past EI
sales by searching the net), but when I asked for a specific flight
where fares 12 months in advance are the cheapest fares available,
she couldn't give any such flight.

There are many periods where it is know that there will NOT be any seat sales.

What would they be? Just give me a flight number and a date, for
which the cheapest fare is the one that's available a year in advance.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

In article .net,
Hilary wrote:

Give me a specific route. How about GLA-MCO? You can bet your bippy
that GLA-MCO fares for travel on June 30, 2007, will be cheaper in
the winter than when they are first released in July 2006.

It's most likely that there won't be any of the cheaper fares.

Since the fares for June 2007 aren't out yet, I can't do the
experiment right away, but I went to a random UK-based airfare site
(flights4less.co.uk) and compared GLA-MCO fares for 2 adults and 2
kids for Aug 1-14, 2006 (presumably, main vacation season) and Apr
1-14, 2007.

Which one do you think was lower?

People in the UK generally need to book 1-2 holidays in advance to
even *think* about the cheaper fares.

I buy UK-originating tickets twice a year or so, rarely more than 1-1.5
months in advance. I seem to get reasonably cheap fares on the dates
I need. I usually buy from consolidators like Trailfinders and such.
Of course, this is just one person's experience, but somehow I doubt
that every Brit on a budget plans his or her vacation a year in advance.

Many passengers told me that they preferred booking 12 months in advance
because it was generally both easier and cheaper than they could get
later, unless they risked not going at all. And even their seat sales
weren't always cheaper than the previous year's fares.

I believe that. A lot of folks seem to have misconceptions about yield
management, and mistakenly think that if they don't book as early as
possible, the cheap seats are going to disappear. And you do have a
valid point that checking airfares throughout a year to save 50 quid
is nobody's idea of fun.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

I buy UK-originating tickets twice a year or so, rarely more than 1-1.5
months in advance. I seem to get reasonably cheap fares on the dates
I need. I usually buy from consolidators like Trailfinders and such.
Of course, this is just one person's experience, but somehow I doubt
that every Brit on a budget plans his or her vacation a year in advance.

Actually many of us do!

Quite often holiday plans need to be submitted to employers a year in
advance at the beginning of the 'holiday year' - if only to ensure adequate
work cover throughout the year.

My employer works on a January - December holiday year, my partners employer
works on an April - March holiday year. We both have to liaise with
colleagues to ensure that staffing levels are adequate throughout the whole
year.

We are quite fortunate that we don't have to stick to school holidays but it
can be an absolute nightmare for colleagues who are limited by this - they
grab the package holidays and/or flights as soon as possible as you simply
can't leave it to chance to book a holiday for two adults and three kids a
month before you want to go if you are limited to the last two weeks of
July!

My company has a rule that once your holiday dates are submitted then if a
company meeting/conference is scheduled during your pre-booked holiday dates
then you are OK not to attend - I book my holidays as far in advance as
possible!

Having said that, if you can travel at quite short notice there are bargains
to be had - we too have used Trailfinders for some cracking long haul
flights at short notice (we always keep a week or two holiday back for
'just-in-case').

Happy Travels.

Nigel.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

In article .net,
Hilary wrote:

Since the fares for June 2007 aren't out yet, I can't do the
experiment right away, but I went to a random UK-based airfare site
(flights4less.co.uk) and compared GLA-MCO fares for 2 adults and 2
kids for Aug 1-14, 2006 (presumably, main vacation season) and Apr
1-14, 2007.

Which one do you think was lower?

Well, let's see. Peak season 2006 vs shoulder season 2007.

Well, peak season 2006 is cheaper 1 month in advance than shoulder
season 2007 9 months in advance. Who coulda thunk.

I buy UK-originating tickets twice a year or so, rarely more than 1-1.5
months in advance. I seem to get reasonably cheap fares on the dates
I need. I usually buy from consolidators like Trailfinders and such.
Of course, this is just one person's experience, but somehow I doubt
that every Brit on a budget plans his or her vacation a year in advance.

What's the destination and the month of travel?

Last year it was London-Houston for July and London-Windhoek for August.

It is true that on some routes the cheaper seats vanish within about 6
weeks of being released. I can see that you've never travelled on routes
like this or tried to book them.

Apparently, you haven't either, because you still haven't given me a
flight and a date for which the fare will not drop between the moment
the flight opens for booking and, say, 2 months out.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

In article ,
Nigel wrote:

I buy UK-originating tickets twice a year or so, rarely more than 1-1.5
months in advance. I seem to get reasonably cheap fares on the dates
I need. I usually buy from consolidators like Trailfinders and such.
Of course, this is just one person's experience, but somehow I doubt
that every Brit on a budget plans his or her vacation a year in advance.

Actually many of us do!

Quite often holiday plans need to be submitted to employers a year in
advance at the beginning of the 'holiday year' - if only to ensure adequate
work cover throughout the year.

Wow, that's pretty harsh! I'll try to remember this next time somebody
brings up how horrible vacation policies are in the US :)

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

"VS" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Nigel wrote:

I buy UK-originating tickets twice a year or so, rarely more than 1-1.5
months in advance. I seem to get reasonably cheap fares on the dates
I need. I usually buy from consolidators like Trailfinders and such.
Of course, this is just one person's experience, but somehow I doubt
that every Brit on a budget plans his or her vacation a year in advance.

Actually many of us do!

Quite often holiday plans need to be submitted to employers a year in
advance at the beginning of the 'holiday year' - if only to ensure
adequate
work cover throughout the year.

Wow, that's pretty harsh! I'll try to remember this next time somebody
brings up how horrible vacation policies are in the US :)


Err not so horrible when you consider that I get nearly six weeks holiday a
year + statutory bank holidays. Most of my mates in the US seem to be lucky
if they get three weeks a year!

Don't misunderstand me - I don't *have* to put my holiday requests in a year
in advance, but by doing so it enables me to get the weeks that I want and
can plan accordingly. Which brings us back to the point that Hilary made
that yes indeed, some of us do book a year in advance (if we want to!).

Happy Travels.

Nigel.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

Hilary wrote:
Airlines with serious hedging are much more protected against this

It'd be interesting to know which airlines have this sort of flexibility -
is there a webpage somewhere that lists it, or is it a matter of searching
for each airline individually?


I don't know if there is a comprehensive list. Soutwest is one of the
more famous cases because they had locked in a very large percentage of
their fuel needs at $25 per barrel. I think their current edges are at a
higher price, but still quite low compared to the rest of the industry.
This means that they know how much most of their flights will cost to
operate well in advance and are sheltered by wild fluctuations.

Their hedges not only allow WN to offer remain profitable without too
many fuel increases, but it also give WN assurance that a ticket sold
today will still be profitable 6 months down the road.

Delta sold its hedge contracts for 80 million just before the fuel
prices started to go up big time. That year alone, the fuel increases
added $400 million to Delta's fuel bill. They haven't recovered since.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

VS wrote:
Well, peak season 2006 is cheaper 1 month in advance than shoulder
season 2007 9 months in advance. Who coulda thunk.

You need to look at more than just published fares. You need to look at
available fares. If you are trying to catch a LAX-SYD flight around
20-23 december, seats may be sold quickly, even though the fare still
apperas on the listings. And because the flight would be near full well
before travcel dats, the airline has no reason to offer a seat sale
during that period. But if you look between christmas and new years, you
will likely see seat sales because this is traditionally a less busy
week. So travelling on that week, you are better off waiting. But
travelling just before christmas, then you need to book well in advance.


Last year it was London-Houston for July and London-Windhoek for August.

"August" is a very long period. Not a very focused number of days with a
big rush. "May" is not a busy period for banks, but mother's day is
the year's busiest day for credit card transactiosn because everyone
buys flowers on the same day in the morning.

thanksgiving weekend is a very busy time for US airlines, but november
is not a busy month. You're not going to find too many seat sales that
apply on thanksgiving weekend. But you will find them for the rest of november.


Apparently, you haven't either, because you still haven't given me a
flight and a date for which the fare will not drop between the moment
the flight opens for booking and, say, 2 months out.



Hilary gave you specific examples (London-Sydney just before christmas
if I remember well).

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

In article , nobody wrote:

Well, peak season 2006 is cheaper 1 month in advance than shoulder
season 2007 9 months in advance. Who coulda thunk.

You need to look at more than just published fares. You need to look at
available fares.

Did you read my post? These fares are available to anyone with a
credit card. I typed in Glasgow to Orlando into a random UK travel site
(www.flights4less.co.uk), and the tickets for travel in August 2006
(August 1 through 14, presumably peak season for travel from Scotland
to Florida) are cheaper than the tickets for April 1-14.

This is not surprising at all. Cheapest tickets are usually sold
4 to 1 months before the date of travel, not 9.5 months in advance.
I am sure tickets for the same dates in April will be selling much
cheaper come January.

If you are trying to catch a LAX-SYD flight around
20-23 december, seats may be sold quickly, even though the fare still
apperas on the listings.

What is now, late June? These flights have been open for booking for
half a year now, and there is still plenty of availability between
LAX and SYD, at lowest published fares.

Qantas has every date between Dec 20 and Dec 23 available for $1900
roundtrip or so. Pricey, of course, but it's the lowest published
fare for these dates. Consolidators seem to have the same dates for
less on UA.

But travelling just before christmas, then you need to book well in advance.

Well in advance, maybe. But not 12 months in advance.

Last year it was London-Houston for July and London-Windhoek for August.

"August" is a very long period. Not a very focused number of days with a
big rush.

She asked a question, I answered. In this particular case, I had zero
flexibility on dates, and was buying my ticket 3 weeks in advance.
It wasn't a big deal - I called a few consolidators in the UK and bought
it from the cheapest one. It certainly would not have occurred to
me to buy a ticket like this 12 months in advance. Heck, Air Namibia
had not even been flying to London 12 months prior :)

Apparently, you haven't either, because you still haven't given me a
flight and a date for which the fare will not drop between the moment
the flight opens for booking and, say, 2 months out.

Hilary gave you specific examples (London-Sydney just before christmas
if I remember well).

It's a pretty bad example, because lowest published fares for these
dates are still plentifully available, and you can probably get a much
better deal by calling around a bit. Now, would I wait to buy these
tickets until November? Probably not. But booking them 12 months in
advance doesn't make much sense, either - they are not going anywhere
in a hurry.

Avoid Delta and Atlanta
 

VS wrote:
Qantas has every date between Dec 20 and Dec 23 available for $1900
roundtrip or so. Pricey, of course, but it's the lowest published
fare for these dates. Consolidators seem to have the same dates for
less on UA.

How do you know they are the lowest published fares for those dates ?
Are you 100% sure that whatever web site you are using isn't filtering
out fares that are no longer available ?


There are also cases of tour operators blocking large amount of seats
early on and later on releasing seats they may not need. Booking your
seats before the tour operators do means you have an assured place on
that aircraft at the lowest fare available at that time. Wait until the
tour operators release their unused seats and you risk not getting a
seat at all or not getting a seat at the lowest fare.

It really depends on the routes and specific dates.

A different example: this spring, a ferry, the Queen of the North sank
in BC. BF Ferries is stuck with only one ship capable of doing this open
water run through the inside passage, down from 2, and that ship has
less capacity than the QofN. Right now, there is no available space in
September because as soon as it happened, tour operators booked all
available space on all sailings to keep their options opened, and BC
Ferries is now working with them to release seats the tour operators
won't be using on a week by week basis. Those who had booked as soon as
the new schedules were announced would have had assured place on the
date of their choice. Thos who didn't will have to wait until probablty
a few weeks before their sailing time to get a confirmation and this may
wreck their plans.

There are times when paying a bit extra for a regular apex fare ends up
being more convenienty because you then have an assured seat on the day
of travel of your choice. Of course, that far ahead, you risk the
schedule changing as well. (and this comes back to Delta having higher
risk of changing its schedules in the next 12 months).