France, the culture wars over head scarves
 

This is a ongoing battle in France over the head scarves.

Some wish to ban them in schools or worn by public employees.

Slightly more (49%) of the Muslim women in France were polled
to be AGAINST the wearing of the scarves than for (41%). So
the idea that this is purely a conflict between the Christian
and Muslim communities is not exactly true. There is a lot of
pressure from the Muslim religious right for ALL Muslim women to wear the
scarves. One is not a "good" Muslim girl or woman unless one wears one. The
conflict can also occur within the family with the males backing
the wearing of the scarves, the teenage girls, sometimes their
mothers not. That becomes a problem of parental or husband-wife
authority.

So there has been nasty exchanges within in the same community.

A considerable portion of the young musulmanes are for integration
into French culture and don`t want to be identified with the
backwardness implied by wearing the scarves. So we have
a ³sisterly² conflict. There is no solution to this conflict except
time.

With regard to the ethnic French community, there are a variety
of attitudes opposing the scarf wearing.

1) Some, as with the Front National, are basically
anti-immigrant. Ethnically nationalist, they would like all
foreigners to "go home". That most of the young Arab community
in France were born and raised here has not sank into their
mentalities.

2) Some French are basically conformist. Anybody who is born
here and grows up, must receive a French education, speak
and write in France and behave as French. There is no
particular room for ethnic diversity in this group.

3) Some have a strong republican attitude, anti-clerical.
The nation has a large non-religious majority. They
don`t go to church nor have strong religious beliefs.
For them there should be no religious display, no crosses or head
displays from which a persons religious beliefs are
evident in school or in public service. On the street is
a different thing. There are no Christians, Jews or
Muslims in school for this group.

4) Educators don`t like displays and especially anything which
interfers with their educational mission. That mission is
to put out ethnically French students, white, black or brown,
they must be French all educated in the same manner.

So how do Muslims girls take the required swimming lessons
with scarves on? The Islamic religious right does not want their girls in
bathing suits much less without their scarves! Other sports activities are
hard to participate in with scarves on. The religious right do not want
their girls taking biology classes where sex is discussed.

5) French feminists view the scarves as a symbol of religious
repression, so they are against it. This "repression" issue
also exists with a portion of the French left.

On the other side of the fence one has those who are for
freedom of religion and expression.

Whatever, the issue is not simple, the culture war wages.

Earl

France, the culture wars over head scarves
 

Following up to Earl Evleth

4) Educators don`t like displays and especially anything which
interfers with their educational mission. That mission is
to put out ethnically French students, white, black or brown,
they must be French all educated in the same manner.

what happens with orthodox jews and sikhs?
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Walking-food-photos, Wasdale, Thames, London etc "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
and same for Spain at "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

France, the culture wars over head scarves
 

Earl Evleth writes:

Whatever, the issue is not simple, the culture war wages.

The only party without an opinion is God.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

France, the culture wars over head scarves
 

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:02:55 +0100, Earl Evleth
wrote:



This is a ongoing battle in France over the head scarves.

Some wish to ban them in schools or worn by public employees.

Slightly more (49%) of the Muslim women in France were polled
to be AGAINST the wearing of the scarves than for (41%). So
the idea that this is purely a conflict between the Christian
and Muslim communities is not exactly true.

As far as I'm concerned, the government should make no rules about the
wearing of any religious garb unless absolutely necessary. I can see
that it would be necessary to forbid the wearing of a face veil for an
identity card photo and it might be necessary to forbid wearing a
Roman toga while on duty as a firefighter. However, in the case of
headscarves (or yarmulkes) in school, I don't see any reason why the
government or the school should have anything to say about it. The
fact that many Muslims don't want to wear veils is irrelevant. If many
young Catholics don't want to go to Mass, the government has no reason
to outlaw going to Mass.

4) Educators don`t like displays and especially anything which
interfers with their educational mission. That mission is
to put out ethnically French students, white, black or brown,
they must be French all educated in the same manner.

In other words, ethnically French means purged of all ethnic
diversity? This is the same sort of reasoning that led France to
forbid parents in Brittany giving Breton names to their children.

So how do Muslims girls take the required swimming lessons
with scarves on? The Islamic religious right does not want their girls in
bathing suits much less without their scarves! Other sports activities are
hard to participate in with scarves on. The religious right do not want
their girls taking biology classes where sex is discussed.

In a diverse society, schools have to do their best to accommodate the
beliefs of their various minorities. When I was a child, my family
belonged to a small religious sect that forbid dancing. My school had
folk dances classes as part of physical education. I was exempted from
these classes. Other children were Jehovah's Witnesses and were exempt
from the "saluting of the flag", an exercise that was almost universal
in my childhood but that had disappeared by the time my children were
in school.

In Pennsylvania, where I grew up, Amish children weren't supposed to
go to school beyond elementary school. This was a tough one, but the
state compromised by requiring the Amish families to send their
children to their (private) elementary schools until the eighth grade
and then to organize formal "apprenticeship" training at home for
another two years, for instance on the family farm.

More recently, a young girl in New Jersey who was a committed
vegetarian and animal rights activist won in court the right to be
able to study biology without having to dissect animals. The court
ordered the school to find some other way of teaching her anatomy, for
instance with computer simulations.

As far as I'm concerned, this tension between private beliefs and
public duties is a healthy one. However, there has to be debate and
compromise. I don't understand why only France has this huge problem
with its Muslim students. Other European countries have dealt with
this problem much more flexibly.

-----------
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

France, the culture wars over head scarves
 

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:26:38 +0100, B Vaughan wrote:

More recently, a young girl in New Jersey who was a committed
vegetarian and animal rights activist won in court the right to be
able to study biology without having to dissect animals. The court
ordered the school to find some other way of teaching her anatomy, for
instance with computer simulations.

I studied Biology at university from 1978 in the UK, we had disections and
other practicals to do that some might find unpleasant or unethical.
Nothing was compulsory. Either they could just watch someone else do it, or
come to some agreement with the staff to learn the anatomy. Computer
simulations were non-existent in those days. I didn't think that was
particularly unusual even then. When you say "recently" and "won the right"
worries me that this sort of attitude is still common.
Even at secondary school in Biology lessons we weren't forced to do
anything like that (although, most of us boys were chomping at the bit to
collect beakersfull of saliva, throw half-dissected bulls-eyes around the
room and slip a skinned lab-rat in to other pupils' school bags).

--
Tim.

If the human brain were simple enough that we could understand it, we would
be so simple that we couldn't.

France, the culture wars over head scarves
 

B staggered to the nearest keyboard and wrote:

As far as I'm concerned, this tension between private beliefs and
public duties is a healthy one. However, there has to be debate and
compromise. I don't understand why only France has this huge problem
with its Muslim students. Other European countries have dealt with
this problem much more flexibly.

Probably for the same reason that the Academie Française worries over
the incursion of terms such as "email" into the language; and the same
reason that French Canadians go around with rulers to make sure that
on bilingual signs the font on the French version is not smaller than
the font on the English version. (Yes, they really do this.) The
obsession of the French with preserving their language and culture
against outside influence is something many of us find difficult to
comprehend, but in the end it's their own business.


--
hambu n hambu hodo

France, the culture wars over head scarves
 

On 11/12/03 13:35, in article ,
"Reid" wrote:

Following up to Earl Evleth

4) Educators don`t like displays and especially anything which
interfers with their educational mission. That mission is
to put out ethnically French students, white, black or brown,
they must be French all educated in the same manner.

what happens with orthodox jews and sikhs?


I don`t about the Sikhs but the Jews or anybody
else can form private schools under contract
with the state. There are a number of Jewish
schools like this and they can do anything
they want in the school, except if they
are under contract they have to teach an
approved curriculum.

That does not prevent them from ALSO teaching
religious subjects.

Few Islamic schools are under contract with the
state since they don`t want to also teach the
state approved curriculum. But there are a few.

Earl

France, the culture wars over head scarves
 

France, the culture wars over head scarves
 

On 11/12/03 15:26, in article , "B
Vaughan" wrote:

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:02:55 +0100, Earl Evleth
wrote:

I will comment on those items I felt commenting necessary.


If many young Catholics don't want to go to Mass, the government has no reason
to outlaw going to Mass.

The other items were about excluding visible signs of religious association,
which applies to Christians also as well as any political declartion (like
political buttons for a particular party, etc).

What one does outside the school wearing scarves or going to mass is not
covered under these kinds of laws. If the Moslem girls want to put
their scarves on on leaving the school grounds, nobody is trying to control
that.

4) Educators don`t like displays and especially anything which
interfers with their educational mission. That mission is
to put out ethnically French students, white, black or brown,
they must be French all educated in the same manner.

In other words, ethnically French means purged of all ethnic
diversity? This is the same sort of reasoning that led France to
forbid parents in Brittany giving Breton names to their children.

France has a list of names which you can give you children, yes.

I don`t know of Breton or Basque names are forbidden? This is the
first time I have heard of that. Do you have any information on that
law and how the EU situation might have changed it.

I gave a quick look on the www.google.fr and found nothing quickly.


So how do Muslims girls take the required swimming lessons
with scarves on? The Islamic religious right does not want their girls in
bathing suits much less without their scarves! Other sports activities are
hard to participate in with scarves on. The religious right do not want
their girls taking biology classes where sex is discussed.

In a diverse society, schools have to do their best to accommodate the
beliefs of their various minorities.

First, sports are considered part of the normal program. Swimming is
for safety reasons, or so claimed.

Are they not to be expose to the theory of evolution because it might
offend religious sensitivities? Or the flat earth people. Should society
protect the rights of parents to keep their children ignorant? Or is it the
responsibility of the collectivity to pass over the "rights of the parent"
to protect the "rights of the child" to be educated in the best manner
society seems fit? Unfortunately there is no easy answer to these
questions. Totalitarians societies will override the rights of the parents
but so will "liberal" societies who don`t want culturally crippled children.


More recently, a young girl in New Jersey who was a committed
vegetarian and animal rights activist won in court the right to be
able to study biology without having to dissect animals.

I never liked that part of the course either, especially when we killed
a live frog. Am I am not a kook in that regard. I don`t remember having
learned anything earth shaking from that experiment.

I think we should avoid cruelty in all forms. This include the cruelty
of enforced exclusion.

The Arabs In France are quite sensitized by the Arabophobia present in the
country (and in the US also) and some see the scarf issue as really an
attack in the Islamic and Arab community in France. I have commented here
before that anti-Arab prejudices in France are far greater than anti-Semitic
sentiments in spite of the support in France for the Palestinian people.

So France is going to have a hard time working through this particular
issue. It is not a black and white situation however, which is why I posted
this item to expose the complexity of the issue.

Earl

France, the culture wars over head scarves
 

On 11/12/03 16:36, in article , "Charles
Hawtrey" wrote:

Probably for the same reason that the Academie Française worries over
the incursion of terms such as "email" into the language;

The Academie might worry about this but nobody else does!

They do funny things anyway, the elected Giscard to their body today.

and the same reason that French Canadians go around with rulers
to make sure that on bilingual signs the font on the French
version is not smaller than the font on the English version. (Yes, they
really do this.) The obsession of the French with preserving their language
and culture against outside influence is something many of us find difficult
to comprehend, but in the end it's their own business.

Are you aware of the anti-Hispanic sentiment in the USA!!

Language protectionism is pretty strong, Anglos don`t want any instruction
in Spanish.

Languages don`t need protecting, they take a course of evolution which
is largely uncontrolled by those who speak it.

Earl