Back on topic - Lake Garda
 

D'yall remember that this is a European travel site?

For any interested, we have just given the Lake Garda, Italy, region a good 'go', and would be happy to advise or answer any questions.

Surreyman

Back on topic - Lake Garda
 

In article ,
Surreyman wrote:

D'yall remember that this is a European travel site?

For any interested, we have just given the Lake Garda, Italy, region a good
'go', and would be happy to advise or answer any questions.

Surreyman


I'm thinking of going to Verona and Sirmione would be a day trip to do.

Is there a lot more to the region around the Lake? Enough say to divert
more time from say the Dolomites?

Back on topic - Lake Garda
 

On Saturday, October 6, 2012 11:28:20 AM UTC+1, poldy wrote:
In article ,

Surreyman wrote:



D'yall remember that this is a European travel site?



For any interested, we have just given the Lake Garda, Italy, region a good

'go', and would be happy to advise or answer any questions.



Surreyman





I'm thinking of going to Verona and Sirmione would be a day trip to do.



Is there a lot more to the region around the Lake? Enough say to divert

more time from say the Dolomites?

Well, I'm a mountain man too! This area has so many attractions you're going to have to prioritise according to your time & interests.

Verona is quietly delightful. We prefer it as an environment to Florence (Florence's major attractions, of course, are largely indoors apart from the obvious sights).

Sirmione is probably one of the most attractive visits on Garda, and don't miss the superb Roman ruins at the northern cape.

You can encompass the whole Lake Garda scene by getting a return ferry ticket from, say, Garda town (south) to Riva (extreme north and, in fact, in the Tyrol!). In one day on a very pleasant cruise you see most of the villages.

Surreyman

Back on topic - Lake Garda
 

On Sun, 7 Oct 2012, Surreyman wrote:

to Riva (extreme north and, in fact, in the Tyrol!).

Sorry but this is incorrect.
The constitutional administrative division of Italy is in Regions and
Provinces (and Communes)

5 of the Regions have, constitutionally, a "special statute". Two are
islands (Sicily and Sardinia) and three are near the borders (Valle
d'Aosta, Friuli Venezia Giulia and Trentino Alto Adige). In the latter
three in PART of the territory there is a bilingual regime (in the
sense that respectively French, Slovenian and German are used for
official acts).

In the case of Trentino Alto Adige, the region (according to a bilateral
treaty between Italy and Austria) is divided in two "autonomous
provinces" (in this particular case the provinces have more power than
the regions. for instance the Regional Assembly is not elected, but
formed by the two joint Provincial Assemblies).

The (autonomous) province of Trento correspond to the part called
"Trentino" and is exclusively of italian language. The (autonomous)
province of Bolzano/Bozen correspond to the part called "Alto Adige /
Südtirol" and is bilingual (actually trilingual, citizens have to
declare whether they belong to the German, Italian, or Ladin group).

"Tirol" instead is a Bundesland (federated unit) of Austria (capital
Innsbrück).

Riva del Garda is in the province of Trento, so not even in Südtirol.

You might hear lot of people speaking German there (but also in the rest
of the Garda shores, even the Lombard or Venetian parts), but they are
tourists !

Back on topic - Lake Garda
 

On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 1:09:09 PM UTC+1, Giovanni Drogo wrote:
On Sun, 7 Oct 2012, Surreyman wrote:



to Riva (extreme north and, in fact, in the Tyrol!).



Sorry but this is incorrect.

The constitutional administrative division of Italy is in Regions and

Provinces (and Communes)



5 of the Regions have, constitutionally, a "special statute". Two are

islands (Sicily and Sardinia) and three are near the borders (Valle

d'Aosta, Friuli Venezia Giulia and Trentino Alto Adige). In the latter

three in PART of the territory there is a bilingual regime (in the

sense that respectively French, Slovenian and German are used for

official acts).



In the case of Trentino Alto Adige, the region (according to a bilateral

treaty between Italy and Austria) is divided in two "autonomous

provinces" (in this particular case the provinces have more power than

the regions. for instance the Regional Assembly is not elected, but

formed by the two joint Provincial Assemblies).



The (autonomous) province of Trento correspond to the part called

"Trentino" and is exclusively of italian language. The (autonomous)

province of Bolzano/Bozen correspond to the part called "Alto Adige /

S�dtirol" and is bilingual (actually trilingual, citizens have to

declare whether they belong to the German, Italian, or Ladin group).



"Tirol" instead is a Bundesland (federated unit) of Austria (capital

Innsbr�ck).



Riva del Garda is in the province of Trento, so not even in S�dtirol.



You might hear lot of people speaking German there (but also in the rest

of the Garda shores, even the Lombard or Venetian parts), but they are

tourists !

Well, I don't have your detailed knowledge, but everyone locally talks of Riva being in the South Tyrol.

Back on topic - Lake Garda
 

On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 1:16:27 PM UTC+1, Martin wrote:
On Tue, 9 Oct 2012 14:08:58 +0200, Giovanni Drogo

wrote:



On Sun, 7 Oct 2012, Surreyman wrote:



to Riva (extreme north and, in fact, in the Tyrol!).



snip



Riva del Garda is in the province of Trento, so not even in Südtirol.



You might hear lot of people speaking German there (but also in the rest

of the Garda shores, even the Lombard or Venetian parts), but they are

tourists !



Some of whom might actually be speaking Dutch

--



Martin

Yep indeed.
Met & chatted with several Dutch around the lake.
But there seemed even less of 'em than Brits.
Germans certainly predominated, even over Italians I suspect! :-))

Back on topic - Lake Garda
 

On Tue, 9 Oct 2012, Surreyman wrote:

Well, I don't have your detailed knowledge, but everyone locally talks
of Riva being in the South Tyrol.

I doubt so.

The province of Trento (former domain of the bishop of Trento, part of
the Austrian empire until 1918) has always been italian-speaking, and
home of movements for annexion to Italy ("irredentismo").

On the contrary the province of Bolzano (aka Alto Adige, aka Südtirol)
has always been majoritary german-speaking (there were limited italian
communities only in the main towns in the valleys) and was annexed to
Italy after WW I mainly for military reasons. The german-speaking
community was oppressed under the fascist regime, which also sent there
lots of italian-speaking immigrants. At some point there was also an
agreement between Mussolini and Hitler by which german-speaking people
should have migrated to Germany ! The situation gradually reversed after
WW II with the so called De Gasperi-Gruber agreement leading to the
treaty between Italy and Austria (incidentally, De Gasperi, which was
prime minister of Italy after WWII, was born in Trentino, and had been
member of the austrian imperial parliament before WW I).

However, the official denomination of the region is now Regione Autonoma
Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol (http://www.regione.taa.it/), so if people
in Riva say that they are in such region, it could be possible they do
not quote the full name ( I guess "Alto Adige", which means the high
part of the course of river Adige, may not make much sense to a
foreigner) but say just Trentino/Südtirol ... and the listener might
skip the first part ...

Back on topic - Lake Garda
 

On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 10:13:52 AM UTC+1, Giovanni Drogo wrote:
On Tue, 9 Oct 2012, Surreyman wrote:



Well, I don't have your detailed knowledge, but everyone locally talks

of Riva being in the South Tyrol.



I doubt so.



The province of Trento (former domain of the bishop of Trento, part of

the Austrian empire until 1918) has always been italian-speaking, and

home of movements for annexion to Italy ("irredentismo").



On the contrary the province of Bolzano (aka Alto Adige, aka Südtirol)

has always been majoritary german-speaking (there were limited italian

communities only in the main towns in the valleys) and was annexed to

Italy after WW I mainly for military reasons. The german-speaking

community was oppressed under the fascist regime, which also sent there

lots of italian-speaking immigrants. At some point there was also an

agreement between Mussolini and Hitler by which german-speaking people

should have migrated to Germany ! The situation gradually reversed after

WW II with the so called De Gasperi-Gruber agreement leading to the

treaty between Italy and Austria (incidentally, De Gasperi, which was

prime minister of Italy after WWII, was born in Trentino, and had been

member of the austrian imperial parliament before WW I).



However, the official denomination of the region is now Regione Autonoma

Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol (http://www.regione.taa.it/), so if people

in Riva say that they are in such region, it could be possible they do

not quote the full name ( I guess "Alto Adige", which means the high

part of the course of river Adige, may not make much sense to a

foreigner) but say just Trentino/Südtirol ... and the listener might

skip the first part ...

This is becoming silly.
Now you're guessing what you feel I might have misheard!
I'm not a total moron - well, a bit of an intelligent one, at least. :-))
Your facts are no doubt impeccable.
But on several instances in Riva I was told (maybe incorrectly) that it was in South Tyrol.
Perhaps it's a shortform used by some locals?
But, strictly speaking, no doubt you're correct and they were wrong.

Back on topic - Lake Garda
 

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Surreyman wrote:

This is becoming silly.
Now you're guessing what you feel I might have misheard!

No offence was meant !

But on several instances in Riva I was told (maybe incorrectly) that
it was in South Tyrol. Perhaps it's a shortform used by some locals?

In what language were you speaking, and what kind of persons were these
locals ?

More than "misheard" I might imagine for instance that they could have
been simplifying things assuming that an expression like "Trentino Alto
Adige" would be too strange to remember for a foreigner.

Like somebody referring to Carlisle as "near" Scotland, or Shrewsbury
"near" Wales.

But, strictly speaking, no doubt you're correct and they were wrong.

Thanks

German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda
 

On 2012-10-09 07:08:58 -0500, Giovanni Drogo said:

The (autonomous) province of Trento correspond to the part called
"Trentino" and is exclusively of italian language. The (autonomous)
province of Bolzano/Bozen correspond to the part called "Alto Adige /
Südtirol" and is bilingual (actually trilingual, citizens have to
declare whether they belong to the German, Italian, or Ladin group).

Funny story. I was lost in Merano. This was back in 2009, the big
trip. The motorway from the south somehow enters Merano, but there was
no way to take the northerly road out, that I could see. I had to
navigate through the city. Got lost.

Once I drove around the same center three times, I asked for
directions. "Dove autostrada nord?"

And I get what I expected, a lightspeed response in Italian. Sigh.
The woman recognized I didn't follow, and perhaps because I was in a
German car, she asked, in German, if I spoke German! A little, I
replied. So through some pidgeon German and some pantomime (closing
and opening hands with fingers outstretched with the word "amphel"), I
know how many meters to travel until I went left, then after the third
"amphel", drive right, etc..

Finally made it out. SO glad they spoke German up there.

Later in my trip, I stopped for fuel in this part of Italy and the
clerk without pause starting talking to me in German. I escape a
tourist identification!

My German is the best non-English European language, and I've thought
to take a leave some day to immerse in a German language, maybe through
some classes at a local university. I always assumed it would be in
Germany or perhaps Austria. Maybe it could be south Tirol. Thoughts?
I understand the dialects can awkward to carry from place to place,
but, would it be any different in say, Berlin, if I spoke south
Tirolish German versus Bavarian, Stuttgartish, or Wiener German?

--
Dan Stephenson
http://stepheda.com
Travel pages for Europe and the U.S.A. (and New Zealand too)