Canadians out donut the Americans, and the Europeans??

Earl Evleth wrote:
On 6/06/05 5:30, in article
. net, "Gregory Morrow"
gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net wrote:


Unlike Jews, Muslims in the States are generally pretty poor (they are too
busy always "praying" and whingeing), manufacturers have no incentive to
cater to the "halal" demographic...


Do you have any statistics on Muslims being generally "pretty poor" in the
US? I have not seen them.

I have run into web comments like

"Almost three-quarters of American Muslims are under age 50, and about seven
in ten are married. Fifty-eight percent graduated from college and half earn
$50,000 or more each year. They are very likely to participate in school,
youth and community service organizations, and roughly the same number ‹
three-fourths ‹ report being active in Muslim organizations."

The general experience with all immigrants to the US is that they do not
remain poor for long. I have seen studies and I seem to remember that a 10
year period is enough time to permit exiting poverty for most.

Likewise, some of the US "Muslim" population are Christian Arabs who came
from Lebanon, Palestine, Syria and Iraq. I know a Syrian doctor living in
the NY area, for instance. He is not poor.

Earl

Anyway, since Kosher has more strict rules than Halal what is Kosher is
Halal but not the other way around.

emilia wrote:

[]
Anyway, since Kosher has more strict rules than Halal what is Kosher is
Halal but not the other way around.

No, that's not true. There are similarities between Kosher and Halal,
but a lot of uncommon ground. You'd be surprised at the list of items
which can be Kosher, but never Halal- and not just alchohol, or products
containing it. Besides, Kosher has varying degrees of strictitude.

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

Earl Evleth wrote:

On 6/06/05 5:30, in article
. net, "Gregory Morrow"
gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net wrote:

Unlike Jews, Muslims in the States are generally pretty poor (they are
too
busy always "praying" and whingeing), manufacturers have no incentive to
cater to the "halal" demographic...

Do you have any statistics on Muslims being generally "pretty poor" in the
US? I have not seen them.

I have run into web comments like

"Almost three-quarters of American Muslims are under age 50, and about
seven
in ten are married. Fifty-eight percent graduated from college and half
earn
$50,000 or more each year. They are very likely to participate in school,
youth and community service organizations, and roughly the same number
three-fourths report being active in Muslim organizations."



That must be from some pro - Muslim site ;-) ...the ones I've encountered
are generally very poor, e.g. the best job they can get is usually as a taxi
driver or a down - scale waiter gig...

The problem is that a goodly number of them are illegals...and they also to
their detriment tend to segregate themselves, they have no use for the
American "mainstream"...


The general experience with all immigrants to the US is that they do not
remain poor for long. I have seen studies and I seem to remember that a
10
year period is enough time to permit exiting poverty for most.



Tell that to the Mexicans Earl, many have been here for decades are still
just scraping by, same for many Haitians, etc...

Some groups though seem to thrive, they also have a history of supporting
their new immigrant brethern, e.g. Koreans, Viets, Jews from the ex - USSR,
etc...


Likewise, some of the US "Muslim" population are Christian Arabs who came
from Lebanon, Palestine, Syria and Iraq. I know a Syrian doctor living in
the NY area, for instance. He is not poor.


In hospital once I "ran" into a female Muslim doctor. My response was "Get
me another doctor!". They did :-)

--
Best
Greg

chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco wrote:

emilia wrote:

[]
Anyway, since Kosher has more strict rules than Halal what is Kosher is
Halal but not the other way around.

No, that's not true. There are similarities between Kosher and Halal,
but a lot of uncommon ground. You'd be surprised at the list of items
which can be Kosher, but never Halal- and not just alchohol, or products
containing it. Besides, Kosher has varying degrees of strictitude.



Yup...from the Kosher signs I see on many food products one could I guess
"keep Kosher" by buying a variety of mainstream US stoopidmarket food
products...

In any case it's pretty much a fool's errand - strictly speaking it's not
really possible to "keep Kosher" in the average household...

--
Best
Greg

chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco wrote:
emilia wrote:

[]

Anyway, since Kosher has more strict rules than Halal what is Kosher is
Halal but not the other way around.


No, that's not true. There are similarities between Kosher and Halal,
but a lot of uncommon ground. You'd be surprised at the list of items
which can be Kosher, but never Halal- and not just alchohol, or products
containing it. Besides, Kosher has varying degrees of strictitude.

As far as I know, if one takes the strictest level of Kosher (I think it
is labeled U) then it is Halal.
Clearly not wine. I think a muslim would know that and wouldn't need a
label.

On 7/06/05 4:30, in article
, "Gregory Morrow"
gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net wrote:

Tell that to the Mexicans Earl, many have been here for decades are still
just scraping by, same for many Haitians, etc...


Well, I looked into this a couple of years ago and this is what I found
at that time----

1) *From 1979 to the late 90, Immigrants percentages of the total poverty
figure rose from 16 % to 22% so this may not upset the total picture
that much. So that change, 6% units in 20 years is not a revolutionary
one.

In the usual tables the composition of those in poverty is broken down
according to sex, age, race (White, Black, Hispanic). *Since most (I think
the figure is between 60-70%) of immigrants are Hispanic) some hint at the
impact of immigrants might come from the portion of Hispanics collecting
poverty, a change in their anatomy.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2/p op/p70/p70-55.pdf

gives data on Hispanics. *They now globally represent the same proportion
of the national population as Blacks and that data indicates similar
residence times.

This is also shown in data from The Statistical Abstracts of the United
States, the percent of those below the poverty line for Blacks and
Hispanics were, respectively (1998) 1,900,000 and 1,600,000 families
representing, respectively, each around 23% of their respectively
populations.

With age range the numbers are

* * * * *Blacks * *Hispanics

15-24 * *305,000 * 213,000
25-34 * *609,000 * 550,000
35-44 * *548,000 * 494,000
44-54 * *190,000 * 187,000
54-64 * *127,000 * *94,000
+65 * * *188,000 * *93,000

I assume that most the the Blacks in the US are native born.

These figures show a change in the over 54 group but the numerically biggest
poverty groups are in the 25-44 range. *The highest percentage of those in
poverty are in the 15-24 group were 54% of Blacks are poor, 25% even among
Whites and 34% among Hispanics. The overall Black rate for all ages is 23%,
the same with the Hispanics.

In all groups the poverty rates drop with age, with Blacks passing from 54%
to 14% at the end of their working lives. Both Whites and Hispanics show
similar drops (to 5% and 14% respectively). *These improvements are steady
as people gets older. This also happens with the immigrants (see below).

Next, the poverty rates do not change over time in an important way
since 1970 in terms of the % of each group in poverty .

Whites rates were 8% in 1970 and 8% in 1998
Black rates were 30% in 1970 and 23% in 1998
Hispanic rates were 25% in 1970 23% in 1998

BUT in the early 90s the rates of all groups rose to 9, 31
and 27% respectively, then dropped quickly. *This
was not driven by immigration but economics.

The poverty rates of immigrants as a function of both
time and period of entry is given in

http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/fac...on/RussiaDiver sity/Amer...
overtyHighest/PovertyHighest.html

As with native born in poverty , it drops rapidly with time, those recently
admitted have the highest poverty rates and area also dropping most
rapidly. *

This site *says

"Poverty levels are highest among the most recent immigrants , those who
have come to the United States since 1990, while poverty rates among
immigrants who arrived in the United States before 1970 more closely
resemble those of the native-born population. Recent immigrants tend to be
younger and therefore have less education and work experience than
immigrants who arrived in earlier decades. Since 1960, there has also been a
dramatic shift in the country of origin of new immigrants, from Europe to
Latin America, which could contribute to these poverty differentials."

If one exams the figures of this reference one see that even among
the post 1990 arrivals, the poverty rates are close to those of
the native born Blacks and Hispanics. *They do start out higher, however
but recovery is rapid, within 10 years 75% are out of poverty .

I really don't see that immigrants have displaced native born
Americans in the poverty statistics in a revolutionary manner.

Earl

emilia wrote:

chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco wrote:
emilia wrote:

[]

Anyway, since Kosher has more strict rules than Halal what is Kosher is
Halal but not the other way around.


No, that's not true. There are similarities between Kosher and Halal,
but a lot of uncommon ground. You'd be surprised at the list of items
which can be Kosher, but never Halal- and not just alchohol, or products
containing it. Besides, Kosher has varying degrees of strictitude.

As far as I know, if one takes the strictest level of Kosher (I think it
is labeled U) then it is Halal.

That's wrong. There are certain foods which would be considered Kosher,
but not Halal. And, in the strictest reading of Halal, only _Halal_ is
Halal anyway. Muslims are encouraged only to choose Kosher as a stop
gap, and to set up Halal food preparation whenever possible.

Clearly not wine. I think a muslim would know that and wouldn't need a
label.

It doesn't just refer to wine!

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco wrote:
emilia wrote:


chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco wrote:

emilia wrote:

[]


Anyway, since Kosher has more strict rules than Halal what is Kosher is
Halal but not the other way around.


No, that's not true. There are similarities between Kosher and Halal,
but a lot of uncommon ground. You'd be surprised at the list of items
which can be Kosher, but never Halal- and not just alchohol, or products
containing it. Besides, Kosher has varying degrees of strictitude.

As far as I know, if one takes the strictest level of Kosher (I think it
is labeled U) then it is Halal.


That's wrong. There are certain foods which would be considered Kosher,
but not Halal. And, in the strictest reading of Halal, only _Halal_ is
Halal anyway. Muslims are encouraged only to choose Kosher as a stop
gap, and to set up Halal food preparation whenever possible.

Well, maybe one day you can explain this better to me.
I'm certainly not going to continue this conversation.
There seems to be great conterversy over this and I don't want to get
into it such a debate.

emilia wrote:

chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco wrote:
[]
That's wrong. There are certain foods which would be considered Kosher,
but not Halal. And, in the strictest reading of Halal, only _Halal_ is
Halal anyway. Muslims are encouraged only to choose Kosher as a stop
gap, and to set up Halal food preparation whenever possible.

Well, maybe one day you can explain this better to me.
I'm certainly not going to continue this conversation.
There seems to be great conterversy over this and I don't want to get
into it such a debate.

Well, then you maybe shouldn't have made the incorrect assertion you did
if you weren't going to back it up. I certainly don't find it
controversial (I'm not religious), but there are clear differences
between kosher and halal laws- for example with regard to gelatine.

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco wrote:
emilia wrote:


chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco wrote:

[]

That's wrong. There are certain foods which would be considered Kosher,
but not Halal. And, in the strictest reading of Halal, only _Halal_ is
Halal anyway. Muslims are encouraged only to choose Kosher as a stop
gap, and to set up Halal food preparation whenever possible.

Well, maybe one day you can explain this better to me.
I'm certainly not going to continue this conversation.
There seems to be great conterversy over this and I don't want to get
into it such a debate.


Well, then you maybe shouldn't have made the incorrect assertion you did
if you weren't going to back it up. I certainly don't find it
controversial (I'm not religious), but there are clear differences
between kosher and halal laws- for example with regard to gelatine.


The gelatin issue is not an issue when discussion the strictest Kosher
foods. Again, one must look for the labeling which indicates strict
Kosher vs the more "progressive" kosher. (which I believe I mentioned
in my previous post which has now been snipped.)

Having said that, I must concede that not all Kosher is Halal. But their
are Kosher products which are Halal.

You might not find it controversial, but there is in fact a controversy
over this issue. As Islam becomes more & more fundamentalized (?), these
fundamentalists are now telling Muslims even the strictest Kosher
products are not Halal, when they have considered so for sometime.