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#11
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This is a very interesting discussion...
I am French, but I obtained a MS degree in the US, and I worked in an US company for several years. Now my daughter is married to an american, and lives in the US. So, I know both countries a bit... And I have a few comments to make about what has been said in this thread. In the first place, it should be realized that Europe is much much more heterogeneous than the US. Not only languages, but cultures and customs are very different, even in the same country. Local dialects are still very much in use (you could hardly work in Alsace, a part of France, if you don't speak the dialect...). And people tend to spend all their live in the area where they were born. This to say that it is nearly impossible to apply any general statement to "Europe"... So, I will limit my comments to a comparison between what I know of France and what I know of the US... - Productivity : I worked in factories, in the US and in France. The difference in behavior is very significant : the american worker obeys orders, without much discussion. The french worker tries to be smart. The visitor who drives in both countries will immediately see the difference in the behavior of the drivers : the way people drive is, in my opinion, one of the best revelators of the psychology of the driver. Yes, the French worker is very productive. He is inventive, and will find ways to do his job better and more efficiently. - GDP : I know there is to be a scale to compare productivity of nations. Comparisons based on figures are easy to make, as figures are published. But these comparisons should be taken with much caution, as figures don't mean the same thing in every country. The amount of euros that will allow a Frenchman to purchase cheese and wine to his liking will make him miserable in the US, where he could not get the same products at any price. - Unemployment : France has known an alternance of socialist and liberal governments. This alternance is necessary to keep the equilibrium. But now France has recently been governed by socialists for a long time, and they have passed laws which are extremely detrimental to the economy. If you ask the factory worker if he would rather work or be on holiday, the answer is obvious... Hence the 35 working hours week... And of course the worker wants to receive money even if he does not work : everybody has to eat, and it is not his fault if the company he was working with had to reduce its workforce. So, the socialist governments instituted a nice compensation system for the unemployed. This is good, of course. But it is now too much : many people have found that they would earn just about the same amount when working as they are earning as unemployed... So, many people find ways to receive the unemployment compensation, even if they don't really intend to work... Unemployment figures can be misleading. - Early retirement : I remember that, 40 years ago, we had ushers in attendance at every floor of our company building. They would take visitors to the proper offices, and they would carry the urgent mail directly to their recipient. They were old, and this gave them a way to still be useful, and to earn enough money to live. But the company had to pay an amount almost equal to the salary, to retirement funds and for health care insurance. So, the companies entered in an agreement with the government : these people would be fired, and would receive unemployment compensation, paid by the government... I had the benefit of such a measure : I was "fired" at 57 (and received in the process a nice check from my company), and I was on "unemployment" for several years (until I qualified for the official retirement benefits), receiving a nice "salary", and not being "obliged" to find a new job... how many such "unemployed" are there still on the statistics ? - French "income" : see above. It is extremely difficult to compare incomes in two countries. Rough figures don't mean much : exchange rates are artificial. And one has to look at the "necessary" expenses : for instance, health care is totally free in France, and the standard is one of the best in the world. There is a lot to be said on the question of comparing "income". - Education : yes, the French system is excellent - and free, for the most part. So, who is right ? When I worked in a manufacturing company in the US, 30 years ago, all the managers could go home at 5 in the afternoon. They had only two weeks vacations, but they could spend every evening at home with their family (I know, I was in a small town, and this was certainly not the case everywhere). Now, all the managers I know in France come home at 8 or 9 p.m.... So much for the fewer work hours... The stress on managers is reaching a critical point (and long vacations are a necessity...). |
#12
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DDT Filled Mormons wrote: On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:11:59 GMT, "Gregory Morrow" gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net wrote: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/29/op...rugman.html?hp July 29, 2005 French Family Values By PAUL KRUGMAN "Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone else. That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others. For example, I've found that many people refuse to believe that Europe has anything to teach us about health care policy. After all, they say, how can Europeans be good at health care when their economies are such failures? Now, there's no reason a country can't have both an excellent health care system and a troubled economy (or vice versa). But are European economies really doing that badly? For ****s sake. Yet another article that assumes France is representative of Europe. Why do Americans fail to grasp something more complex that one country? Tut tut now DFM, he had to choose *some* country in Europe, didn't he...??? -- Best Greg |
#13
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On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:50:02 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net wrote: DDT Filled Mormons wrote: On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:11:59 GMT, "Gregory Morrow" gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net wrote: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/29/op...rugman.html?hp July 29, 2005 French Family Values By PAUL KRUGMAN "Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone else. That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others. For example, I've found that many people refuse to believe that Europe has anything to teach us about health care policy. After all, they say, how can Europeans be good at health care when their economies are such failures? Now, there's no reason a country can't have both an excellent health care system and a troubled economy (or vice versa). But are European economies really doing that badly? For ****s sake. Yet another article that assumes France is representative of Europe. Why do Americans fail to grasp something more complex that one country? Tut tut now DFM, he had to choose *some* country in Europe, didn't he...??? Why is it never Liechtenstein? -- --- DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com --- -- |
#14
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"DDT Filled Mormons" wrote in message news On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:50:02 GMT, "Gregory Morrow" Tut tut now DFM, he had to choose *some* country in Europe, didn't he...??? Why is it never Liechtenstein? Bah!!! Andorra forever. |
#15
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DDT Filled Mormons wrote: On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:50:02 GMT, "Gregory Morrow" gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net wrote: DDT Filled Mormons wrote: On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:11:59 GMT, "Gregory Morrow" gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net wrote: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/29/op...rugman.html?hp July 29, 2005 French Family Values By PAUL KRUGMAN "Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone else. That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others. For example, I've found that many people refuse to believe that Europe has anything to teach us about health care policy. After all, they say, how can Europeans be good at health care when their economies are such failures? Now, there's no reason a country can't have both an excellent health care system and a troubled economy (or vice versa). But are European economies really doing that badly? For ****s sake. Yet another article that assumes France is representative of Europe. Why do Americans fail to grasp something more complex that one country? Tut tut now DFM, he had to choose *some* country in Europe, didn't he...??? Why is it never Liechtenstein? Or San Marino, or even the Duchy Of Fenwick... -- Best Greg |
#16
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"Gregory Morrow" Or San Marino, or even the Duchy Of Fenwick... Didn't Fenwick have the Bomb? In which case, have they renounced it? |
#17
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DDT Filled Mormons wrote:
[] Why is it never Liechtenstein? Liechtenstein is very handy for European travellers. Indeed, I have a Liechtenstein phone number, though I've never been there. Actually, I usually have to double check on the map to remember exactly where it is. -- David Horne- www.davidhorne.net usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk |
#19
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On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:54:26 +0200, Martin wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:53:10 GMT, DDT Filled Mormons wrote: On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:05:43 +0100, (chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco) wrote: DDT Filled Mormons wrote: [] Why is it never Liechtenstein? Liechtenstein is very handy for European travellers. Indeed, I have a Liechtenstein phone number, though I've never been there. Actually, I usually have to double check on the map to remember exactly where it is. I went there for work once. It felt just like Switzerland not surprisingly. Mixi should try it. Mixi's becoming tedious and boring. Too many of us have figured him out, and know how to drive his meaningless drivel into the dirt where it belongs. Now I just feel terribly sorry for him. There's a deeply sad spirit inside that guy. -- --- DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com --- -- |
#20
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more pollution, thank you
"Gregory Morrow" gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net a écrit dans le message de news: t... http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/29/op...rugman.html?hp July 29, 2005 French Family Values By PAUL KRUGMAN "Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone else. That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others. For example, I've found that many people refuse to believe that Europe has anything to teach us about health care policy. After all, they say, how can Europeans be good at health care when their economies are such failures? Now, there's no reason a country can't have both an excellent health care system and a troubled economy (or vice versa). But are European economies really doing that badly? The answer is no. Americans are doing a lot of strutting these days, but a head-to-head comparison between the economies of the United States and Europe - France, in particular - shows that the big difference is in priorities, not performance. We're talking about two highly productive societies that have made a different tradeoff between work and family time. And there's a lot to be said for the French choice. First things first: given all the bad-mouthing the French receive, you may be surprised that I describe their society as "productive." Yet according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, productivity in France - G.D.P. per hour worked - is actually a bit higher than in the United States. It's true that France's G.D.P. per person is well below that of the United States. But that's because French workers spend more time with their families. O.K., I'm oversimplifying a bit. There are several reasons why the French put in fewer hours of work per capita than we do. One is that some of the French would like to work, but can't: France's unemployment rate, which tends to run about four percentage points higher than the U.S. rate, is a real problem. Another is that many French citizens retire early. But the main story is that full-time French workers work shorter weeks and take more vacations than full-time American workers. The point is that to the extent that the French have less income than we do, it's mainly a matter of choice. And to see the consequences of that choice, let's ask how the situation of a typical middle-class family in France compares with that of its American counterpart. The French family, without question, has lower disposable income. This translates into lower personal consumption: a smaller car, a smaller house, less eating out. But there are compensations for this lower level of consumption. Because French schools are good across the country, the French family doesn't have to worry as much about getting its children into a good school district. Nor does the French family, with guaranteed access to excellent health care, have to worry about losing health insurance or being driven into bankruptcy by medical bills. Perhaps even more important, however, the members of that French family are compensated for their lower income with much more time together. Fully employed French workers average about seven weeks of paid vacation a year. In America, that figure is less than four. So which society has made the better choice? I've been looking at a new study of international differences in working hours by Alberto Alesina and Edward Glaeser, at Harvard, and Bruce Sacerdote, at Dartmouth. The study's main point is that differences in government regulations, rather than culture (or taxes), explain why Europeans work less than Americans. But the study also suggests that in this case, government regulations actually allow people to make a desirable tradeoff - to modestly lower income in return for more time with friends and family - the kind of deal an individual would find hard to negotiate. The authors write: "It is hard to obtain more vacation for yourself from your employer and even harder, if you do, to coordinate with all your friends to get the same deal and go on vacation together." And they even offer some statistical evidence that working fewer hours makes Europeans happier, despite the loss of potential income. It's not a definitive result, and as they note, the whole subject is "politically charged." But let me make an observation: some of that political charge seems to have the wrong sign. American conservatives despise European welfare states like France. Yet many of them stress the importance of "family values." And whatever else you may say about French economic policies, they seem extremely supportive of the family as an institution. Senator Rick Santorum, are you reading this?" / |
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