High Finance of Flying Free

Michael Thiele wrote in message ...
Reef Fish schrieb:
If you CAN'T find flights to spend FFMs at more than the equivalent
value of 2c a mile, then you either don't fly much or you need to
increase your brain size to more than an ounce. ;-)

For 2/14/04 - 2/21/04, a roundtrip on BF to HKG from SEA is $7492+,
so the 42K FFMs I got from my present trip is worth more than $2,500,
if applied to that trip in BF Class.


i can understand FF miles have a high value for people wanting to fly
business class.

That's just one of many examples I've given.

I cited the example of flying CO to Cozumel. It is the only domestic
(USA)
airline to land in CZM. 35,000 FFM to fly coach there is worth the
amount
of money some pay to fly there, or some other Caribbean cities served
by
CO.

Others would find cheaper fares flying to Cancun, change to an
AeroMexico
or Mexicana puddle hopper to Cozumel; or take a bus/taxi to Playa del
Carmen and a ferry to get to Cozumel. Others find still cheaper
charter flights andor hotel packages at some cities that offer them.

It's the FREE MARKET for people to choose what suits them best,
moneywise
or for convenience.


I use my CO FFMs more often in Hilton and Conrad stays all over the
world
than I do on free flights or pay-to-stay in other hotels. It worked
out
to be worth MUCH more than the $20 per 1K-mile equivalent.

Ah, but you'll say you can rent a hotel room in Cozumel for $10 a
night --
which is true, but that doesn't negate the fact that for those who
PREFER
to stay in a Hilton in Rome, of the Eifel Hilton in Paris, or any of
several Hiltons in London, the Conrad in HK, the Hilton in Sydney,
etc.
etc. all of which I have stayed FREE with HHonor points converted from
CO FFMs.

The fact that there are usually CHEAPER ways of flying or hotel stays
is a topic akin to "How to tour Europe for $10 a Day" which is
laughable
to anyone who CHOOSES to stay in Marriotts, Hiltons, Hyatts, and other
higher-end hotels that cost more than $5 a night or fly in First or
BFirst.


The subject of discussion I brought out was NOT how to be as cheap as
possible, but how to use the FFMs WISELY if one chooses to use them
in LUXURY, or in ordinary coach, or in hotel stays, for which the
value
of the FFM exceeds certain cash-equivalent in dollar terms.



You should watch that stupid Adam Sandler movie "Punch Drunk Love". He
buys tons of joghurts (4 for 99 cents) because this way he will receive
many 500 AA miles vouchers for 2,50 USD each for his first flight in
livetime to Hawaii!!!

Nah, I am too busy flying First Class and Flying Free in my travel all
over the world to have the time to watch such stupid movies. :-)

-- Bob.

Michael Thiele wrote in message ...
Reef Fish schrieb:
If you CAN'T find flights to spend FFMs at more than the equivalent
value of 2c a mile, then you either don't fly much or you need to
increase your brain size to more than an ounce. ;-)

For 2/14/04 - 2/21/04, a roundtrip on BF to HKG from SEA is $7492+,
so the 42K FFMs I got from my present trip is worth more than $2,500,
if applied to that trip in BF Class.


i can understand FF miles have a high value for people wanting to fly
business class. It is a fact -at least for europe- that the lowest coach
fare is usually less than if you value the miles with half a cent.

In my previous reply to the same, I overlooked the fact that your email
address .de is in Europe, your reader "schrieb" from Europe, and you
were speaking "-at least for europe-" about flying "domestic EUROPE"
or "intra-Europe", and that everything was screaming EUROPE. :-)


In that case, I should have conceded that much of what I said, mostly
about my own experience flying Continental Airlines, the benefits of
being its Platinum Elite member, which in turn carries over to the
42K FFMs for one single COACH trip from ATL to HKG, are all specific
to CO -- much of which is NOT applicable to "domestic EUROPE" travel.


For one thing, the main advantage of being Platinum on CO in the first
place is the automatic, complimentary upgrade to First Class in all
"domestic" travel, which is "domestic USA" -- defined by CO to be
within the 48-contiguous states (but includes also Mexico, Canada,
and the Caribbean).

Once you take THAT away, the residual advantage of using the FFMs
for BF travel is indeed quite limited, as you correctly pointed out,
for EUROPEAN flyers.



You should watch that stupid Adam Sandler movie "Punch Drunk Love". He
buys tons of joghurts (4 for 99 cents) because this way he will receive
many 500 AA miles vouchers for 2,50 USD each for his first flight in
livetime to Hawaii!!!

I STILL don't have the time to watch such stupid movies, even if I
were a flyer in EUrope. :-)

-- BOb.

(Reef Fish) wrote in message . com...
(Ian) wrote in message m...
In practice, the $850 EQUIVALENT I get from the FFMs for the flight
will have the actual CASH-equivalent (whether I spend it in Hilton hotel
stays or flying on Delta, or any of CO's partners, or use them for
free Business First tickets on CO) that is likely to EXCEED $1,500
rather than just the nominal $850 equivalent.

If the CASH-equivalent is more than $1,500 try offering your FFMs back
to CO and see what they offer you in hard $s. That figure is what
they think the COST is. The VALUE remains at $1,500 to you.


Ian

You STILL don't understand the simplest of economic principles and the
terms "cash equivalent", "value", and "cost", do you?
Oh yes I do, but I have obviously failed miserably to explain my point
to you. The cost for CO of providing you with a FFM r/t is not the
same as the cost to you of purchasing that r/t.

Let's make it simple for you. I checked the CO webpage just now.
There are several roundtrips from ATL to HKG (2/15/2004 to 2/22/2004)
in First/BusinessFirst for $6,884.84 USD.

CO will accept that amount from anyone in CASH.

CO will accept 120,000 FFM for the same ticket.

It matters not how muddled YOU are about "value", "cost", or "cash
equivalent", the simple fact is -- the 120K CO FFMs are negotiable
as cash toward the purchase of that $6,884.84 ticket.
Agreed. (but not the muddled part).

That means each 1,000 FFM is worth more than $50 USD.
But only when exchanging FFM for an FFM service/product. Try taking
your 1,000 FFM into Wal-Mart and purchasing something. That is why
you keep wanting to introduce the concept of cash-equivalent and
saying things like "Imagine CO hands me $850 USD in cash after the
roundtrip flight. Then my net COST for the FLIGHT is -$76 (minus $76)
or a net GAIN of $76." You want to convince yourself that FFMs are
the same as cash. They are only the same as cash when you exchange
your FFM for another service/product.

The 42K+ FFMs I get for my ATL/HKG roundtrip then, is worth not only
much more than the $850 nominal value at $20 per 1K FFM, but more than
$1,500. Using grossly truncated figures, the 42K miles are worth AT
least (42 x 50) or $2,100 USD toward the purchase of that one ticket.

The VALUE now becomes $2,100+ USD for that particular application.
The cash-equivalent, value, or whatever you want to call it, VARIES
according to HOW to use the FFMs.

If you look at the last paragraph of my previous posting I agreed
fully with you on this (except that the VALUE was then $1,500 and I
note that it has now crept up to $2,100. What will it be on your next
post, I wonder?)

I have right now over 1,000,000 unused CO FFMs. You can BET your
bottom dollar that the VALUE I get out of the 1 million miles will
be MUCH greater than the nonimial cash-equivalent of $20,000 USD.
Good for you. But look at post number 2 by 'mrt'.
Let's look at it another way. Your original transaction was $744 paid
in return for a ATL/HKG r/t and 42,491 FFMs. Ask CO if they made any
profit on that deal. By your account they didn't because you will
receive more than $2,100 equivalent from the FFM alone, plus the
original r/t. That's because of your concept of cash-equivalent.

Now, let's have another stab at it. Find out the price of a single
ticket ATL/HKG and the price of a single ticket HKG/ATL. I am
guessing that the total will be more than $744. Hey presto! You have
now saved yourself even more money. Or, another way: if the single
outward bound ticket price is, say, $600, then your inbound flight has
only cost you $144 - an absolute bargain.

Have a good return trip.
Ian

Reef Fish wrote:
I STILL don't have the time to watch such stupid movies, even if I
were a flyer in EUrope. :-)

What do you do on all those marathon ATL-HKG legs then?

miguel
--
See the world from your web browser: http://travel.u.nu/

Anthony Craig wrote in message -did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me...
(Reef Fish) writes:

In practice, the $850 EQUIVALENT I get from the FFMs for the flight
will have the actual CASH-equivalent (whether I spend it in Hilton hotel
stays or flying on Delta, or any of CO's partners, or use them for
free Business First tickets on CO) that is likely to EXCEED $1,500
rather than just the nominal $850 equivalent.

If the CASH-equivalent is more than $1,500 try offering your FFMs back
to CO and see what they offer you in hard $s. That figure is what
they think the COST is. The VALUE remains at $1,500 to you.


Ian

You STILL don't understand the simplest of economic principles and the
terms "cash equivalent", "value", and "cost", do you?

Let's make it simple for you. I checked the CO webpage just now.
There are several roundtrips from ATL to HKG (2/15/2004 to 2/22/2004)
in First/BusinessFirst for $6,884.84 USD.

CO will accept that amount from anyone in CASH.

CO will accept 120,000 FFM for the same ticket.

It matters not how muddled YOU are about "value", "cost", or "cash
equivalent", the simple fact is -- the 120K CO FFMs are negotiable
as cash toward the purchase of that $6,884.84 ticket.

That means each 1,000 FFM is worth more than $50 USD.

Reef Fish,

I agree with others that your economics are not as general as you
imply.

I disagree with you and others that my economics are not as general
as I imply. The economic PRINICIPLES are completely general.

I do agree with you that the specific EXAMPLES I used are not
generally applicable to everyone, but I never intended it to be so.
They were examples chosen to make points of ILLUSTRATION.



You suggest that FFMs are worth 2c/mile and that it might
really be 5c/mile. Sure, there is a case where CO will exchange
the FFMs at 5c/mile (above example).

The example was intended as an ILLUSTRATION of the general principle,
and that a CO FFM may indeed be worth 5c/mile or more.



In my world, I would never use 120k FFMs for a business class ticket.

"In my world" pretty much says it all about your entire post.
Then the FFM on CO in YOUR WORLD will be worth much less than the
example cited.


I would use them for 2 economy class round trips.

I would too, for certain markets, so YOUR world and MY world are not
mutually exclusive (i.e., they do overlap) either.


So lets say
those cost $1k each (generous). That works out to 1.6 c/mile.

YOur arithmetic (or whatever imbedded assumptions) escaped me.
I've shown that for certain coach tickets at 35K FFM to the Caribbean,
they exceed 2c/mile (I cited ATL/IAH/CZM as a specific example).


Each individual will value FFMs at different rates.

I've always maintained that position.


If you think they're worth
2c/mile or 5c/mile, that's fine. But don't suggest everyone does, and
don't suggest that someone not getting 2c/mile out of them is not
using the "right".

I'll concede that you have a point there, though the way you expressed
it is a misrepresentation of MY point about the same.

Perhaps you might say (and I would say) that if you are UNABLE to
use the CO FFMs (can't speak of other airlines) and get 2c/mile of
them, then you're not OPTIMIZING the value of your usage. Howszat?


The $6000 upgrade cost on CO is irrelavent and
useless as a benchmark for me. The same is true of hotel rooms, but I
won't go there. I think I've made my point.

You have indeed made your point.

My point now is that I never used those as benchmarks for YOU or
anyone else. I merely used the figures I used as ILLUSTRATIONS on
how FFMs can be evaluated as cash-equivalents, for SOMEONE, and
that someone may or may not be YOU.

It's as simple as that.

If you go back and re-read everything I've posted in this thread,
you should see that you merely misread some parts of it to have
come to your misrepresentation/misunderstanding of what I've said.

snip

(Again, in my world).

it's tough for me to find cases where they're worth much more than 1c/mile.


What you've done in your post is the articulation that YOUR world is
not the same as mine, and not the same as "me" (which is not me :0(
who valued his miles at 1.6c/mile, nor the same as those others
who valued them at other monetary equivalents.


By the way, just for reference,
I currently have over 300k miles in my FFM accounts and have used about
200k FFMs in the last few years using the strategy above.

tony.........

Since you brought these numbers out, my wife and I currently have
over 1,000,000 FFMs in our CO OnePass accounts alone, and we used
at least 500K of those miles EVERY year, at values ALWAYS
exceeding 2c/mile.

Your airline(s) may not be CO, your world is definitely different
from mine, and those are only two of the reasons why ...

YMMV. :-)

-- Bob.

Anthony Craig wrote in message -did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me...
Sender: tcraig@sunray1
Organization: National Center for Atmospheric Research

( SNIP )

tony.........


Tony, aren't you the same Tony as

Anthony Craig )
National Center for Atmospheric Research

or

Craig Anthony
Academic Services and Emerging Technologies
Penn State University
University Park, PA 16802


I am curious why for this particular post you chose to hide under
the cloak of "?

-- Bob.

(Ian) wrote in message om...
(Reef Fish) wrote in message . com...

If the CASH-equivalent is more than $1,500 try offering your FFMs back
to CO and see what they offer you in hard $s. That figure is what
they think the COST is. The VALUE remains at $1,500 to you.


Ian

You STILL don't understand the simplest of economic principles and the
terms "cash equivalent", "value", and "cost", do you?


Oh yes I do, but I have obviously failed miserably to explain my point
to you. The cost for CO of providing you with a FFM r/t is not the
same as the cost to you of purchasing that r/t.

You explained your point VERY well, and that's why I said what I said.

Of course the two costs are not the same. If the cost to me of
purchasing a r/t is the same as the cost to CO of providing the service,
then why is CO in the (supposedly) PROFIT making business? Where does
the PROFIT come from?

That's why your point is irrelevant.

What is relevant is how much the service costs ME, either in CASH, or
in some other equivalent, such as FFMs.



Let's make it simple for you. I checked the CO webpage just now.
There are several roundtrips from ATL to HKG (2/15/2004 to 2/22/2004)
in First/BusinessFirst for $6,884.84 USD.

CO will accept that amount from anyone in CASH.

CO will accept 120,000 FFM for the same ticket.

It matters not how muddled YOU are about "value", "cost", or "cash
equivalent", the simple fact is -- the 120K CO FFMs are negotiable
as cash toward the purchase of that $6,884.84 ticket.

Agreed. (but not the muddled part).

I won't quibble with semantics. But I think you were confused,
given the preceding explanation of the point of confusion in your
present post.


That means each 1,000 FFM is worth more than $50 USD.

But only when exchanging FFM for an FFM service/product.

Of course! That was the entire point of this thread! I don't think
I am mistaken in saying that of all the respondents, you were the ONLY
one who raised (improperly) the issue below:

Try taking
your 1,000 FFM into Wal-Mart and purchasing something.

That would be possible IF WalMart participates in CO's FFM program.
There are many products and non-airline services that DO accept CO
FFMs as cash-equivalent.



That is why
you keep wanting to introduce the concept of cash-equivalent and
saying things like "Imagine CO hands me $850 USD in cash after the
roundtrip flight. Then my net COST for the FLIGHT is -$76 (minus $76)
or a net GAIN of $76." You want to convince yourself that FFMs are
the same as cash. They are only the same as cash when you exchange
your FFM for another service/product.

That's because it's exactly HOW the cash-equivalent concept works
in exchanging CO FFMs for CO's services.

( snip redundant argument based on the same on both sides )



Now, let's have another stab at it.

Hope you would be bleeding too badly after my rebuttal. :-))

Find out the price of a single
ticket ATL/HKG and the price of a single ticket HKG/ATL. I am
guessing that the total will be more than $744.

No need to guess -- two one-way trips will cost MORE than a roundtrip
ticket on the same flights. Depending on the dates and times of
flights, some roundtrips will cost more, and some less, than the
$744. So, what's your point?


Hey presto! You have
now saved yourself even more money. Or, another way: if the single
outward bound ticket price is, say, $600, then your inbound flight has
only cost you $144 - an absolute bargain.

Only someone as muddled in economic concepts and as silly in making
counter-arguments could come up with such a statement of vacuous
substance relative to the point of discussion.



Have a good return trip.
Ian

Thank you. I did. Still trying to recover from the 11-hour jet lag.

-- Bob.

(Miguel Cruz) wrote in message ...
Reef Fish wrote:
I STILL don't have the time to watch such stupid movies, even if I
were a flyer in EUrope. :-)

What do you do on all those marathon ATL-HKG legs then?

miguel

Sleep, read, and watching some non-stupid movies? ;-)

You have a very boring life don't you, to have to hear yourself ask
such a stupid question?

-- Bob.

Only someone as muddled in economic concepts and as silly in making
counter-arguments could come up with such a statement of vacuous
substance relative to the point of discussion.

Bob, your original post had "CO paid us to fly." Think about it.

Next is:
"I have right now over 1,000,000 unused CO FFMs" So, from someone who
is muddled in economic concepts, please may I ask: 'On a FIFO basis,
how long will it be before you get to spend the 42k+ FFMs?"

It reminds me of my childhood, when I cam home from school one day,
all full of excitement.
"Dad, dad, I've just saved myself 50 cents"
"How?"
"I just ran all the way home behind the bus."
Whereupon my Dad clipped me hard around the ear.
"Ouch, what was that for, Dad?"
"You fool," he thunders "you could have saved $5 by running behind a
taxi."

END

Ian

(Ian) wrote in message om...
Only someone as muddled in economic concepts and as silly in making
counter-arguments could come up with such a statement of vacuous
substance relative to the point of discussion.

Bob, your original post had "CO paid us to fly." Think about it.

Absolutely, in the CONTEXT of the discussion in this thread! You're
quoting me out of context.


Next is:
"I have right now over 1,000,000 unused CO FFMs" So, from someone who
is muddled in economic concepts, please may I ask: 'On a FIFO basis,
how long will it be before you get to spend the 42k+ FFMs?"

Within a couple of years? Since I am spending them at the rate of about
500K miles a year? Staying in various Hilton and Conrad hotels for
free, flying to Hong Kong with my wife in BF would use 240,000 of
those miles. Have already offered my brother and his wife a round
trip to ATL from HK with my FFM, and that's another 120,000 FFM. All
of these definitely have CASH value equivalents.

What's your point?


It reminds me of my childhood, when I cam home from school one day,
all full of excitement.
"Dad, dad, I've just saved myself 50 cents"
"How?"
"I just ran all the way home behind the bus."
Whereupon my Dad clipped me hard around the ear.
"Ouch, what was that for, Dad?"
"You fool," he thunders "you could have saved $5 by running behind a
taxi."

END

Ian

Are you blaming your muddled mind on your Dad now?

Ian, I've come to the conclusion (based on the record of what you
posted in this thread, in the archives), that you are HOPELESSLY
muddled in your concepts about economics and benefit-cost analysis.

As the Old Saying goes, "As long as you keep your mouth shut, there
is doubt about your ignorance on the subject; but as soon as you
opened your mouth, you removed all such doubts."

-- Bob.