Pay for infant seat or not?

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 05:50:36 -0700 Alan Street
wrote:

:In article , paul
:williams wrote:

:€ Do you really regard it abuse when people disagree with your positions?

:€ Question : How full generally are transatlantic flights and internal
:€ US flights in November ?

:€ Reason is my little boy will be one year old and I haven't decided
:€ whether its worth paying for a seat for him or whether there'll be
:€ plenty of spare seats on the flight.

:€ If you must take your infant, pay for the seat. If you don't, and
:€ there's
:€ no room, you, your son and everyone around you will be miserable.

:€ But better, still, is to not take an infant on a long haul.

:€ Like I said - how about we keep this argument to the other thread...

:€ You asked for feedback and I provided it. Interestingly, everyone,
:€ including parents who travel with infants, said the same thing (about
:€ buying
:€ a seat). And, as everyone has agreed, the reason that this topic is
:€ sensitive at all is because of the marked lack of courtesy and
:€ consideration
:€ on the part of some (but not all) parents. Flying 8 hours with a toddler
:€ is
:€ as much a courtesy and consideration issue as it is a ticketing issue.

:€ This is advice, not abuse. Sorry if it's not palatble to you.

:€ hmmm. I was hoping for advice from fellow parents really rather than
:€ people who object to children traveliing in the first place.

:€ I take your points onboard but the bottom line is my child WILL be
:€ travelling... I'm just trying to find the best way to do this.

:The best way is to buy a seat for your child.

Subject to various values of "best".

If one has money falling out of their pockets? Certainly.

If one is on a budget, where the money has better uses and thus it is worth
suffering some amount of hours of discomfort (and Paul's dirty looks) to save
it? No.

Each family has to consider their own circumstances.

But, all in all, it is just a flying bus. Don't pay much attention to those
with their noses in the air.

--
Binyamin Dissen
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Should you use the mailblocks package and expect a response from me,
you should preauthorize the dissensoftware.com domain.

I very rarely bother responding to challenge/response systems,
especially those from irresponsible companies.

In article , PTRAVEL says...


"paul williams" wrote in message
. com...
"PTravel" wrote in message
...
"paul williams" wrote in message
om...
OK. No abuse please - I think we had enough of that in the other
thread.

Do you really regard it abuse when people disagree with your positions?


Question : How full generally are transatlantic flights and internal
US flights in November ?

Reason is my little boy will be one year old and I haven't decided
whether its worth paying for a seat for him or whether there'll be
plenty of spare seats on the flight.

If you must take your infant, pay for the seat. If you don't, and
there's
no room, you, your son and everyone around you will be miserable.

But better, still, is to not take an infant on a long haul.

Like I said - how about we keep this argument to the other thread...

You asked for feedback and I provided it. Interestingly, everyone,
including parents who travel with infants, said the same thing (about buying
a seat). And, as everyone has agreed, the reason that this topic is
sensitive at all is because of the marked lack of courtesy and consideration
on the part of some (but not all) parents. Flying 8 hours with a toddler is
as much a courtesy and consideration issue as it is a ticketing issue.

This is advice, not abuse. Sorry if it's not palatble to you.




That you stay off airplanes if normal human noises bother you so much is also
advice, not abuse.

Your definition of 'courtesy' would prevent orphans from being transported for
adoption, dispossess infants of their parents while they are on overseas jobs
and assignments, and disabled grandparents from ever seeing their infant
grandchildren. Let alone many other situations (and, no, noise is not an
assault or similar in intrusiveness to encroachment on seating space, and
there's no cosmic perogative for you to cherry-pick which of others' needs and
concerns you think 'justify' you hearing their noises).

Lambasting each and every parent who comes here with practical questions on
infant travel with your irritations and impossible admonishments to never take
infants on long airplane trips does not help the situation, and does not put
people in a receptive mood to take measures for your comfort even if they might
have been initially motivated to do so.

Banty

In article , Binyamin
Dissen wrote:


€
€ :€ hmmm. I was hoping for advice from fellow parents really rather than
€ :€ people who object to children traveliing in the first place.
€
€ :€ I take your points onboard but the bottom line is my child WILL be
€ :€ travelling... I'm just trying to find the best way to do this.
€
€ :The best way is to buy a seat for your child.
€
€ Subject to various values of "best".
€
€ If one has money falling out of their pockets? Certainly.
€
€ If one is on a budget, where the money has better uses and thus it is worth
€ suffering some amount of hours of discomfort (and Paul's dirty looks) to save
€ it? No.
€
€ Each family has to consider their own circumstances.
€
€ But, all in all, it is just a flying bus.

Would that be a tyical bus in the US or the UK, or a typical non-aircon
bus in Thailand or Mexico? Holding a child on your lap for 8 hours
isn't a good idea for you, your child or the people around you, and if
it's a full flight (likely), then he's going to be doing just that.

As for circumstances and funds, there's always limits. Are you implying
that regardles of funds, if someone needs to get somewhere, the ends
always justifies the means? Are you trying to say that anyone, any time
has the "right" to travel somewhere, by hook or by crook if necessary?
If he can't afford a ticket for his son, then he shouldn't go, just as
he shouldn't go if can't afford a ticket for himself.

In article , Binyamin Dissen says...


:The best way is to buy a seat for your child.

Subject to various values of "best".

If one has money falling out of their pockets? Certainly.

If one is on a budget, where the money has better uses and thus it is worth
suffering some amount of hours of discomfort (and Paul's dirty looks) to save
it? No.

Each family has to consider their own circumstances.

Few who ride with a lap infant really need the savings. There's a lot of folks
out there who think that That Which Is Offered For Free Should Be Taken Or One
Is A Fool. Which *is* the foolish idea actually, and well worth counteracting
sometimes.

IMO it makes a large enough practical difference to make the extra ticket worth
while. Unless one really cannot travel at all otherwise, and is scrimping
heavily on other accomodations as well.


But, all in all, it is just a flying bus. Don't pay much attention to those
with their noses in the air.


Sure. For every person with a cold stabbing stare for a parent with an infant,
there are several who are charmed, sympathetic, and even anxious to help. Which
side of human nature deserves the largest place in our experience?

Cheers,
Banty

In article , Binyamin Dissen says...


:The best way is to buy a seat for your child.

Subject to various values of "best".

If one has money falling out of their pockets? Certainly.

If one is on a budget, where the money has better uses and thus it is worth
suffering some amount of hours of discomfort (and Paul's dirty looks) to save
it? No.

Each family has to consider their own circumstances.

Few who ride with a lap infant really need the savings. There's a lot of folks
out there who think that That Which Is Offered For Free Should Be Taken Or One
Is A Fool. Which *is* the foolish idea actually, and well worth counteracting
sometimes.

IMO it makes a large enough practical difference to make the extra ticket worth
while. Unless one really cannot travel at all otherwise, and is scrimping
heavily on other accomodations as well.


But, all in all, it is just a flying bus. Don't pay much attention to those
with their noses in the air.


Sure. For every person with a cold stabbing stare for a parent with an infant,
there are several who are charmed, sympathetic, and even anxious to help. Which
side of human nature deserves the largest place in our experience?

Cheers,
Banty

(paul williams) wrote in message . com...
"PTRAVEL" wrote in message ...
"paul williams" wrote in message
om...
"PTravel" wrote in message
...
"paul williams" wrote in message
om...
OK. No abuse please - I think we had enough of that in the other
thread.

Do you really regard it abuse when people disagree with your positions?


Question : How full generally are transatlantic flights and internal
US flights in November ?

Reason is my little boy will be one year old and I haven't decided
whether its worth paying for a seat for him or whether there'll be
plenty of spare seats on the flight.

If you must take your infant, pay for the seat. If you don't, and
there's
no room, you, your son and everyone around you will be miserable.

But better, still, is to not take an infant on a long haul.

Like I said - how about we keep this argument to the other thread...

You asked for feedback and I provided it. Interestingly, everyone,
including parents who travel with infants, said the same thing (about buying
a seat). And, as everyone has agreed, the reason that this topic is
sensitive at all is because of the marked lack of courtesy and consideration
on the part of some (but not all) parents. Flying 8 hours with a toddler is
as much a courtesy and consideration issue as it is a ticketing issue.

This is advice, not abuse. Sorry if it's not palatble to you.

hmmm. I was hoping for advice from fellow parents really rather than
people who object to children traveliing in the first place.

I don't object to children travelling in the first place; I object to
parents who bring disruptive children who create annoyances for others
on board. Your latest inquiry was on the availability of extra seats
so that you wouldn't have to buy a seat for your child. It doesn't
take a parent to answer that -- only someone who flies enough to know
that most flights are full these days. And, as someone who flies a
lot (Platinum on CO, Premiere Exec on UA, lots of miles on most
others), including transoceanics, my answer remains the same (and
agrees 100% with what you've been told by parents): Don't count on
open seats, buy a seat for your child, as it will be uncomfortable for
you, your child and other passengers if your child is forced to sit on
your lap for 8+ hours.


I take your points onboard but the bottom line is my child WILL be
travelling... I'm just trying to find the best way to do this.

I understand that and, frankly, what I find rather disturbing is that,
after a rather long and contentious thread (in which _I_ was not
abusive, but was the subject of abuse by a number of parents), despite
the fact that _everyone_ was in agreement that taking a toddler as a
lapchild on a transoceanic was a particularly poor idea, you still are
willing to risk it to save a couple of dollars. As I've said right
along, this is a matter of courtesy and consideration. It is truly
unfortunate that you see it solely as a question of "us versus them,"
"parents versus non-parents."

It isn't and, sorry to say, parents who see it that way are the ones
who make it difficult for everyone else, parents and non-parents. I
really wish you would consider what I've written about imposition and
courtesy, rather than simply rejecting it out of hand as coming from
"someone who thinks children shouldn't fly."

(paul williams) wrote in message . com...
"PTRAVEL" wrote in message ...
"paul williams" wrote in message
om...
"PTravel" wrote in message
...
"paul williams" wrote in message
om...
OK. No abuse please - I think we had enough of that in the other
thread.

Do you really regard it abuse when people disagree with your positions?


Question : How full generally are transatlantic flights and internal
US flights in November ?

Reason is my little boy will be one year old and I haven't decided
whether its worth paying for a seat for him or whether there'll be
plenty of spare seats on the flight.

If you must take your infant, pay for the seat. If you don't, and
there's
no room, you, your son and everyone around you will be miserable.

But better, still, is to not take an infant on a long haul.

Like I said - how about we keep this argument to the other thread...

You asked for feedback and I provided it. Interestingly, everyone,
including parents who travel with infants, said the same thing (about buying
a seat). And, as everyone has agreed, the reason that this topic is
sensitive at all is because of the marked lack of courtesy and consideration
on the part of some (but not all) parents. Flying 8 hours with a toddler is
as much a courtesy and consideration issue as it is a ticketing issue.

This is advice, not abuse. Sorry if it's not palatble to you.

hmmm. I was hoping for advice from fellow parents really rather than
people who object to children traveliing in the first place.

I don't object to children travelling in the first place; I object to
parents who bring disruptive children who create annoyances for others
on board. Your latest inquiry was on the availability of extra seats
so that you wouldn't have to buy a seat for your child. It doesn't
take a parent to answer that -- only someone who flies enough to know
that most flights are full these days. And, as someone who flies a
lot (Platinum on CO, Premiere Exec on UA, lots of miles on most
others), including transoceanics, my answer remains the same (and
agrees 100% with what you've been told by parents): Don't count on
open seats, buy a seat for your child, as it will be uncomfortable for
you, your child and other passengers if your child is forced to sit on
your lap for 8+ hours.


I take your points onboard but the bottom line is my child WILL be
travelling... I'm just trying to find the best way to do this.

I understand that and, frankly, what I find rather disturbing is that,
after a rather long and contentious thread (in which _I_ was not
abusive, but was the subject of abuse by a number of parents), despite
the fact that _everyone_ was in agreement that taking a toddler as a
lapchild on a transoceanic was a particularly poor idea, you still are
willing to risk it to save a couple of dollars. As I've said right
along, this is a matter of courtesy and consideration. It is truly
unfortunate that you see it solely as a question of "us versus them,"
"parents versus non-parents."

It isn't and, sorry to say, parents who see it that way are the ones
who make it difficult for everyone else, parents and non-parents. I
really wish you would consider what I've written about imposition and
courtesy, rather than simply rejecting it out of hand as coming from
"someone who thinks children shouldn't fly."

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , PTRAVEL says...


"paul williams" wrote in message
.com...
"PTravel" wrote in message
...
"paul williams" wrote in message
om...
OK. No abuse please - I think we had enough of that in the other
thread.

snip lots of vitriole



That you stay off airplanes if normal human noises bother you so much is
also
advice, not abuse.

Your definition of 'courtesy' would prevent orphans from being transported
for
adoption, dispossess infants of their parents while they are on overseas
jobs
and assignments, and disabled grandparents from ever seeing their infant
grandchildren. Let alone many other situations (and, no, noise is not an
assault or similar in intrusiveness to encroachment on seating space, and
there's no cosmic perogative for you to cherry-pick which of others' needs
and
concerns you think 'justify' you hearing their noises).

Lambasting each and every parent who comes here with practical questions
on
infant travel with your irritations and impossible admonishments to never
take
infants on long airplane trips does not help the situation, and does not
put
people in a receptive mood to take measures for your comfort even if they
might
have been initially motivated to do so.

Banty

I love where this argument has led. Pure artistry. And no spelling errors
(as far as I can see). A bit unsporting for us spelling nazis though.

abacus.

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , PTRAVEL says...


"paul williams" wrote in message
.com...
"PTravel" wrote in message
...
"paul williams" wrote in message
om...
OK. No abuse please - I think we had enough of that in the other
thread.

snip lots of vitriole



That you stay off airplanes if normal human noises bother you so much is
also
advice, not abuse.

Your definition of 'courtesy' would prevent orphans from being transported
for
adoption, dispossess infants of their parents while they are on overseas
jobs
and assignments, and disabled grandparents from ever seeing their infant
grandchildren. Let alone many other situations (and, no, noise is not an
assault or similar in intrusiveness to encroachment on seating space, and
there's no cosmic perogative for you to cherry-pick which of others' needs
and
concerns you think 'justify' you hearing their noises).

Lambasting each and every parent who comes here with practical questions
on
infant travel with your irritations and impossible admonishments to never
take
infants on long airplane trips does not help the situation, and does not
put
people in a receptive mood to take measures for your comfort even if they
might
have been initially motivated to do so.

Banty

I love where this argument has led. Pure artistry. And no spelling errors
(as far as I can see). A bit unsporting for us spelling nazis though.

abacus.

In article , abacus says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , PTRAVEL says...


"paul williams" wrote in message
e.com...
"PTravel" wrote in message
...
"paul williams" wrote in message
om...
OK. No abuse please - I think we had enough of that in the other
thread.

snip lots of vitriole



That you stay off airplanes if normal human noises bother you so much is
also
advice, not abuse.

Your definition of 'courtesy' would prevent orphans from being transported
for
adoption, dispossess infants of their parents while they are on overseas
jobs
and assignments, and disabled grandparents from ever seeing their infant
grandchildren. Let alone many other situations (and, no, noise is not an
assault or similar in intrusiveness to encroachment on seating space, and
there's no cosmic perogative for you to cherry-pick which of others' needs
and
concerns you think 'justify' you hearing their noises).

Lambasting each and every parent who comes here with practical questions
on
infant travel with your irritations and impossible admonishments to never
take
infants on long airplane trips does not help the situation, and does not
put
people in a receptive mood to take measures for your comfort even if they
might
have been initially motivated to do so.

Banty

I love where this argument has led. Pure artistry. And no spelling errors
(as far as I can see). A bit unsporting for us spelling nazis though.

abacus.

"Unsporting"??!? How unfair. I had kindly provided an omitted verb in my
second paragraph fo your and others' enjoyment.

Banty (always the courteous one... :-)