Pickpockets

Following up to TMOliver

Perhaps in Andalucia having found a
role has helped them.

The gitanos of Andalucia are a long way from having been Gypsies,

How do you mean? They are perhaps more settled than others,
having to some extent taken the place of the expelled moors. But
they entered Spain as gypsies. Flamenco of course is a fusion of
Andalucia and Gypsy and no doubt the flamenco familes are
similarly mixed now.
--
Mike Reid
Flamenco, the European blues
"http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/andalus.htm#flamenco"
(see webpage for email)

The Reid wrote:

Following up to Deep Freud Moors

They looked like they could
have been from northern India!

the Spanish gitanos are supposed to have come from India.

Many could easily pass for Indian, certainly.

David

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk
davidhorne (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

than you propebly have not opened your eyes. Putting all people of one
group in a general group is a thing people used to do 50 years back in
Europe! Are you living in the past?

Piero wrote:

I've never (and none of my friends has) seen a Gipsie doing OTHER THAN
begging, stealing or cursing.

Therefore, they're criminals. Full stop.

The Reid vented spleen or mostly mumbled...

Following up to TMOliver

Perhaps in Andalucia having found a
role has helped them.

The gitanos of Andalucia are a long way from having been Gypsies,

How do you mean? They are perhaps more settled than others,

The "gitanos" od urban Andalucia, principally Seville, have very little
"Gypsy" (Romany) blood, their ancestors having intermarried/mingled with
the indigenous stock over a number of centuries.


having to some extent taken the place of the expelled moors.

Most of the "Moors" (excepting real honest to goodness "Moors" of the
ruling class) weren't "expelled". Much of the population of Southern Spain
under the Moors were original indigenous stock who converted to Islam for
practical survival purposes during the centuries of Moorish domination.

In the same vein that Henri of Navarre claimed that "Paris is worth a
Mass.", they became subject to "battlefield baptism"/conversion back to or
to Christianity. Southern Spain was occupied by a thin overlay of
Christian Spanish military/nobility and the Church.


But
they entered Spain as gypsies. Flamenco of course is a fusion of
Andalucia and Gypsy and no doubt the flamenco familes are
similarly mixed now.

More than mixed, likely, with the original dose of Gypsy having diminished
over the centuries to a smidgeon of DNA, about as "Gypsy" as folks in
Aberdeen are "Picts" or the shopkeepers of Plymouth "Britons".

I would have thought that one who traveled so extensively in Spain would
have spent a bit more time with some of the available histories, etc..
Many common Andalucian and Spanish family names are almost pure Arabic in
origin, evidence that the "moors" left more behind than simply a few palces
and place names. The easy ones to see are those names which begin with
"Al".

TMO

Following up to TMOliver

Most of the "Moors" (excepting real honest to goodness "Moors" of the
ruling class) weren't "expelled". Much of the population of Southern Spain
under the Moors were original indigenous stock who converted to Islam for
practical survival purposes during the centuries of Moorish domination.........

........I would have thought that one who traveled so extensively in Spain would
have spent a bit more time with some of the available histories, etc..

Well, at least i'm not "wetting my nappies" anymore, it seems.
Progress.

"In 1610, when the general expulsion of the moors had begun..."
Gypsies and Flamenco, Leblon, Gypsy Research Centre, University
of Hertfordshire. This source talks of gypsy replacing moor, who
am I to argue?

More than mixed, likely, with the original dose of Gypsy having diminished
over the centuries to a smidgeon of DNA, about as "Gypsy" as folks in
Aberdeen are "Picts" or the shopkeepers of Plymouth "Britons".

I think that is an exaggeration. From what I read mass
sedentarisation happened over the course of the 18C, looking at
other communities, this is not long enough for gyspy blood to be
watered down to the insignificant, especially given the various
periods of persecution.

Many common Andalucian and Spanish family names are almost pure Arabic in
origin, evidence that the "moors" left more behind than simply a few palces
and place names. The easy ones to see are those names which begin with
"Al".

I may not meet your exacting standards of scolarship but even I
had noticed the Al.
Anyway, I did not say the moorish influence was limited to a few
place names or that *all* moors left (but there were expulsions).

".....in spite of the inquisition and the expulsion edicts, did
not renounce the islamic legacy"
(Moorish Architecture in Andalucia - Barrucano)
although it didnt stop then building a cathederal in the middle
of a mosque, although the legacy is clear enough in Cordoban
cuisine.
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
UK walking "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to TMOliver

Somebody has to buy second hand dark colored Cadillacs.....

If you must buy a Cadillac surely that would be superior to a
white stretch one. Anything is superior to that.
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
UK walking "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

The Reid wrote:

Anyway, I did not say the moorish influence was limited to a few
place names or that *all* moors left (but there were expulsions).

There's a religious "timeline" on display at Malaga Cathedral which
completely ignores the Moors. It was about the only time I ever felt
slightly ****ed off while in Spain.

David

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk
davidhorne (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

Following up to David Horne

Anyway, I did not say the moorish influence was limited to a few
place names or that *all* moors left (but there were expulsions).

There's a religious "timeline" on display at Malaga Cathedral which
completely ignores the Moors. It was about the only time I ever felt
slightly ****ed off while in Spain.

that's the Catholic church for you, completely uncatholic :-)
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
UK walking "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

The Reid vented spleen or mostly mumbled...



"In 1610, when the general expulsion of the moors had begun..."
Gypsies and Flamenco, Leblon, Gypsy Research Centre, University
of Hertfordshire. This source talks of gypsy replacing moor, who
am I to argue?


While sources are sources, I'd be quite uncomfortable relying on any
publication which claims that the general expulsion of the Moors began in
or about 1610.

Dates for the completion of the Reconquista are substantially earlier, and
the timeframe with which generations of school boys (at least the US
variety) have been encumbered is: "Well, I know it happened shortly before
1492...."

TMO

Following up to TMOliver

While sources are sources, I'd be quite uncomfortable relying on any
publication which claims that the general expulsion of the Moors began in
or about 1610.

Dates for the completion of the Reconquista are substantially earlier, and
the timeframe with which generations of school boys (at least the US
variety) have been encumbered is: "Well, I know it happened shortly before
1492...."

(The reconquest does not feature much in UK school history)

I think the reconquest and expulsions are not the same thing. The
1610 event being due to dissatisfaction with the "conversion" of
many "ex-moors". (your "battlefield conversions" no doubt) IIRC
Toledo tolerated everybody long after the reconquest but
eventually threw out moors and jews.
I think anybody writing a book about Andalucia would be familiar
with the date of the reconquest and would have been aware 1610
was not it. My sketchy impression is that the States General of
1610 became for some reason alarmed about both gypsies and moors
and Philip IV in 1633 reinforced this with further anti gypsy
law. It may be significant that there was a moorish revolt in
1569.

Another bit about those particular expulsions:-
"Expelling citizens from the Country was not good policy, since
when the moors were driven out in 1613, in considerable numbers,
they left behind then deserted houses and fields, and abandoned
trades." The council prosecutor adds that there was a great deal
more to be gained by profiting from these circumstances to
encourage gypsies to replace the deportees and that some did so
spontaneously......
Campomanes 1763

hence gypsies replacing moors and becoming sedentary.
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
UK walking "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap