Travelling to Rio

Dear Mr. Pan,

I was not really planning to get into a geographic/tourist flame, but it
is really getting annoying.

1 - I am sorry you had a bad experience in Rio. However, we do not keep
our criminals on leashes just to release them on unsuspecting tourists
who decide to stroll at night in dark streets. Pardon my selfishness,
but I wish we could! Unfortunately, Brazilians bear the burden of
criminality much more than tourists do, everyday, and not only when they
are on vacations. And we don't bear it gladly. For a person who does not
speak our language, neither lives in our country, to say that we don't
discuss, struggle against or try to fight against violence, it is not
only laughable ignorance, it is insulting.

2 – I am not surprised that Brazilians got snippy at you, instead of
sympathetic, if you showed them the same attitude you did here. I am
afraid that we share with many other nationalities that kind of
"national pride" that makes us very resistant to criticism by foreigners
about our country—even on issues about which we may trash our own
government, among ourselves. It comes to mind that delicious caricature
of an American jingoist played by Kevin Kline, in a Fish Called Wanda:
“we didn’t lose in Vietnam, it was a tie.” My point is that if you want
to have a candid conversation with Brazilians on the problems of the
country, you’d have to approach them with a bit more of sensitiveness.
It may be simply a cultural clash, but high-handed arrogance in Brazil
is considered, well, plain bad manners, and it is not likely to elicit
you a courteous answer.

3 – Finally, if you get so fired up by a relatively mild comment such as
Kurko’s initial post, well, maybe you should avoid not only the dark
streets of Rio, but also the Usenet altogether. Toughen up!

At this point, please feel free to insult Brazilians for what a born and
raised Brazilian told you. Even worse: I was born and (mostly) raised in
Rio de Janeiro city.

I have seen my beloved, gorgeous city change a lot in the last 20
years—unfortunately not always for good. Having somehow a “gringo”
appearance, I have been mistaken by a tourist very often, by thugs as
well as by well-intentioned cariocas who tried to educate me on how to
be safe in the city. I am glad, however, that it never prevented me from
enjoying my city, and I have never let violence steal from me the right
to discover its beauty and charm. This doesn’t mean I don’t take
precautions, as everybody else does in Rio. For instance, when I take
friends with me to the Feira de São Cristovão, in a not so safe area,
but where you can find delicious northeastern delicacies, I make sure
that we go there in groups of 4 or 5, and that we leave—also
together—with the family crowd, by midnight. I avoid going out at night
alone, but, if I am all by myself, it is better to go home at 7 am than
at 2 am. And there are many perfectly safe places, not too expensive,
where you can bid your time. Just ask a local person, that is what I do
when a go to another country. I have also travelled rather extensively,
and, except for one bad experience in the US, which I am the first to
admit that resulted from my being naïve, my ask-a-local methodology
works just fine everywhere. In fact, even when I go to a new place in
Rio, I try to talk to a “native” beforehand, asking what is Ok and what
is not ok to do in such place—be it a favela, a new neighborhood, or
only a more isolated patch of forest.

As I current live in a suburb city in the US, where most restaurants
close at 9 pm (even on Saturdays!), I miss the midnight dinners, the
dancing, the chorinho bars at Lapa, the kiosks in the Lagoa Rodrigo de
Freitas, the shows and art galleries in the Cultural Corridor, the
saveiro-tour in Guanabara Bay), the mangrove forests, the Tijuca urban
forest, the beaches (each one with a different personality), the
peregrination for used book in "sebos" in downtown Rio, the juice
stands—with oh so many exotic fruit names--, climbing the SugarLoaf (it
is not so difficult, and there are several alternative tourist agencies
that can take you there), the hidden treasures that are the Museu da
Chácara do Céu or the Museu da imagem do inconsciente, the incredible
garden of Burle Marx, the cosmopolitan bars in the Zona Sul and the
little-town feeling in some suburbs… I could go on and on.

Again, I am sorry that you had a bad experience in Rio; but I am even
sorrier for you, that you allowed that experience to blind you for
everything Rio could have offered you.

Best,

Lise

P E T E R P A N schrieb:

This stupid, nasty guy JohnM was not able to provide any information
or any arguments to defend his interests in Brazil,

Actually, he IS ABLE to provide that kind of information, and maybe in
more detail than you might ever be able to absorb:

http://www.fetchbook.co.uk/search_18...b_reviews.html

JL

Kurko schrieb:

Fantastic. Its always rather funny when someone who speaks english as
mother
tongue doesn't know how to write his own language. Oh, sorry lil petey is
an AMERICAN, so he really doesn't speak english.

Anyway, I have no business in Rio especially related to pimping or mugging.
In no circumstances I don't approve these crimes,

Murphy, o Vingador Implacável, ataca de novo. :-)

JL

Lil petey!

1st: My old saggy assed wife wont be raped, because she isn't that stupid
that
she'd walk around the ****in' Copacabana at 02.00 am!

2nd: If my old wife is so old and saggy assed, who in hell would even think
raping her? Especially in Copacabana there are ****load of BEAUTIFUL young
girls, no need to rape old saggy assed women.

Anyway petey, I think that you were hunting some "girlies" who actually are
hung like donkeys. They do roam in the less lit areas in Copacabana. Too
bad
you ran into "bad boys" before you found your own lover boy.

Good luck!

Kurko


On 14 Mar 2004 07:55:56 -0800, P E T E R P A N
wrote:

Everyone should see clearly that this dumb jerk Kurko is acting like a
stupid, uneducated loser with his nonsense arguments and his dumb
accusations!

If Kurko's old wife got raped up her big, sagging *ss by a bunch of
drug lords, Kurko will immediately blame his wife for the crime like
any dumb loser would!

Kurko is just dumb trash!

Kurko wrote in message
...
Ok little fairy.

Thank you for your misinformation, now you may crawl back to the hole
you came from. NOBODY here needs your opinion anymore. We know that your
enormous EGO
got hurt while you were visiting Rio, but try to cope with it GROW UP
ok.

Kurko





--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Sorry, I don't quite understand.

I don't speak Portuguese nor read is fluently :-(

Kurko


On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 20:00:12 +0100, João Luiz
wrote:

Murphy, o Vingador Implacável, ataca de novo. :-)

JL





--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

I find downtown Rio is similair to downtown Detroit(with palm Trees) No one
wants to go there either!
"Kurko" wrote in message
news
Lil petey!

1st: My old saggy assed wife wont be raped, because she isn't that stupid
that
she'd walk around the ****in' Copacabana at 02.00 am!

2nd: If my old wife is so old and saggy assed, who in hell would even
think
raping her? Especially in Copacabana there are ****load of BEAUTIFUL young
girls, no need to rape old saggy assed women.

Anyway petey, I think that you were hunting some "girlies" who actually
are
hung like donkeys. They do roam in the less lit areas in Copacabana. Too
bad
you ran into "bad boys" before you found your own lover boy.

Good luck!

Kurko


On 14 Mar 2004 07:55:56 -0800, P E T E R P A N

wrote:

Everyone should see clearly that this dumb jerk Kurko is acting like a
stupid, uneducated loser with his nonsense arguments and his dumb
accusations!

If Kurko's old wife got raped up her big, sagging *ss by a bunch of
drug lords, Kurko will immediately blame his wife for the crime like
any dumb loser would!

Kurko is just dumb trash!

Kurko wrote in message
...
Ok little fairy.

Thank you for your misinformation, now you may crawl back to the hole
you came from. NOBODY here needs your opinion anymore. We know that
your
enormous EGO
got hurt while you were visiting Rio, but try to cope with it GROW UP
ok.

Kurko





--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Kurko schrieb:

Sorry, I don't quite understand.

I don't speak Portuguese nor read is fluently :-(

Sorry for the lack of explanation.

It was about one of the Murphy's Laws applied to the usenet stating
that, whenever someone criticizes another poster's bad writing/spel-
ling/grammar, s/he will make a horrible writing/spelling/grammar
mistake on the next line or paragraph.

JL


Another one (from the experience of reading some newsgroups, I know this
joke is strongly based on reality):


Q: How many usenet newsgroup subscribers does it take to change a light bulb?
A: 1,331:

1 to change the light bulb and to post to the newsgroup that the light bulb
has been changed.
14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb
could have been changed differently.
7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs.
27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs.
53 to flame the spell checkers.
156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb
discussion and its inappropriateness to this newsgroup.
41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames.
109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this
exchange to alt.lite.bulb.
203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and
alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped.
111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we are all use light bulbs
and therefore the posts are relevant to this newsgroup.
306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy
the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs works best for this
technique, and what brands are faulty.
27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs.
14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected URLs.
3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this list
which makes light bulbs relevant to this list.
33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and
footers, and then add "me too.".
12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot handle
the light bulb controversy.
19 to quote the "me too's" to say "me three.".
4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ.
1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup.
47 to say this is just what alt.physics.cold_fusion was meant for, leave it
there.
143 votes for alt.change.lite.bulb.

"B H" wrote in message
...

I think PETER PAN refers to my posting about crime/pickpocket aviodance
guide in a thread
further down here (rec.travel.latin-america).
I was the one who experienced the problem with the self-appointed parking
attendant.
I think there are at least two kinds of parking attendants. Official ones
(I think I have heard
that they have som kind of cloth or id to be sure they are official) and
self-appointed ones.
The one I met certainly looked highly unofficial to say the least. But
from there to say that
he is into some organised crime and mafia is taking it a bit far (but of
course I do not know that).
Can anyone shed some light on the facts here? Are there official and
self-appointed parking
attendants, or just official ones in Rio? I think I know the answer, but
would like a more
qualified statement than my own here.

Borge

Borge,

I'll try to shed some light on the subject.

But first some clarifications about my position. I live in Rio de Janeiro,
but I'm not a Brazilian. I'm a guest in this country. I can have opinions
about things I see. I can point out things I consider wrong. I can express
preferences. I can make suggestions. But I can't tell Brazilians how to run
their country. If I don't like what's happening, I'm free to leave.

The unofficial parking attendants are called 'flanelinhas' The word is
derived from 'flanela', a piece of cloth which they use to wave to
approaching motorists, telling them that they have a space to offer. I
believe originally it was used to wipe the door handle so that the
'customer' wouldn't make his hands dirty. You'll find flanelinhas in most
major cities of Brazil (I don't say 'all' because I don't know all of them).
In fact, you find them everywhere where there are loads of cars but only
limited space for parking them. (Just like you find vultures only where
there is a good supply of cadavers.) Flanelinhas are one of my pet hates.
They occupy a part of a public road and charge for parking there. But I
already paid for that road with my taxes! "Charging" this varies, depending
on where and when you park. During the day, in some areas, they may just
expect a tip for having helped you find a space and maneuver into it. If you
go to a theatre performance at night they'll demand payment up front and
they'll specify how much.

The official parking arrangements vary from city to city and I can only
comment on Rio, where the system is called "vaga certa". The attendants wear
vests which identify them as official, but more importantly, they issue
tickets which you display inside your car as proof that you have paid. The
ticket, which costs two reais, entitles you to park in any other "vaga
certa" during that day. The attendants are on some kind of free-lance
arrangement with the city council. They receive the two reais and have to
pay 70 centavos to the council for each ticket.

Let me try to put all of this into context, by telling you two stories.

1) I grew up in Germany, in a town of about 100.000 inhabitants. This was a
long time ago, I still remember seeing some bombed out buildings from WWII.
The city council had decided to build a new road which would bypass the
business centre and had designated an area where destroyed houses would not
be re-built and existing houses would be pulled down. It was a long, slow
process and at one time the council decided to turn some land which had
already been set aside for the new road temporarily into a car park. They
just put a layer of asphalt on it and marked the spaces. There were no
meters and no other charge for using the car park. The people who lived
nearby were not well-off. I wouldn't say it was a slum, but the houses had
been ear-marked for destruction and nobody was investing any money in
modernizing them. Those who could afford something better had already left.
The ones who were still living there were waiting to be re-housed by the
council. As soon as the car park was put into operation, you could see the
local kids running around, guiding motorists into available spaces, opening
the door for them and holding up their hands, expecting a reward for their
efforts. That was roughly 50 years ago, in a country that was going through
an 'economic miracle', at a time when unemployment was virtually
non-existent. And it wasn't even a major city.

2) Last fall, I went to Canada on vacation. I had a hard time finding a
place to park my rental car in downtown Toronto, near Yonge Street. Some of
the streets in the area were lined with parking meters and there was even
the occasional empty space. But meters have their limitations. Firstly, you
need a plentiful supply of coins to feed them. Secondly you need to know how
long you're going to stay. If you overestimate, your money's lost; if you
underestimate, you get a fine. (I did in fact get a fine, later, in
Montreal, for overstaying by 6 minutes!. The meter in question only accepted
quarters and the people I tried to ask if they could change my toonie into
quarters all gave me a wide berth, assuming I was begging. - But that is a
different story). Then I saw some private car parks where I could park for
as long as I wanted - at some exorbitant price. Now, I *assume* that the
people operating these private car parks pay rent to somebody for their use
of the space; I *assume* that they declare and pay tax on all their income;
I *assume* that the people working their get the wages and benefits workers
in Canada are entitled to. But I still felt I was being robbed. I don't want
to turn this into a tirade against Canada, but what amazed me was the
apparent lack of any kind of urban planning that allowed something as
essential as long-term parking to be controlled by private enterprises. If
Toronto, the largest city in one of the richest countries in the world can't
do better than that, how can we expect Rio to do it?

The flanelinhas in Rio are a problem. Yes, there is a certain degree of
organization, a division of territory between groups. But you can't say
telling someone they have to pay if they want to park here is the same as
holding a gun to their head and demanding all their money. Simply saying
there should be more police is not the answer. The police force we have is
under-paid, under-trained, under-motivated and under-equipped. The rich
don't respect the police. Why should the poor? Why would having more of them
make any difference? You would also have to find an alternative source of
income for the flanelinhas - unless you want to turn them into real
criminals.

Do you want me to point the finger? Well how about this?

Last year, the Brazilian economy achieved a trade surplus of 64 bi USD. That
means the country earned 64 bi USD more for goods and services it exported
than it spent on goods and services it imported. It was a record, the
highest ever achieved. In the same year, Brazil paid around 120 bi USD (I
don't have the exact figure handy) interest to its international creditors.
That's right. Brazil paid almost twice as much in interest than it earned.
How did it do this? By borrowing more. It means, that in the year of its
highest ever trade surplus, the country has gone deeper into debt, has
become poorer.

The government has vowed, already in the run-up to the elections, to meet
all its obligations. Its leadership has come in repeatedly for praise from
the International Monetary Fund and other international finance
institutions. At the same time there are spending cuts; social projects are
reduced to the point of being ineffectual while the international banks are
bleeding the country dry. It is exactly the money the goes in the form of
interest payments to foreign banks which is missing in paying, training and
equipping the police, in investments in infrastructure, in job creation.

It is dangerous to suggest without a detailed analysis that one country's
decisions could be repeated in another country, but the comparison with
Argentina is obvious. Argentina simply said "can't pay, won't pay" and is
offering investors payment of 25% of its debt. Is Brazil really rich enough
to play the 'model child' and pay all its debt?

Just my 2 centavos worth.

Peter
--
___
Já nas livrarias: Dicionário de Expressões Idiomáticas da Língua Inglesa
de Maria Helena Schambil & Peter Schambil, Editora Difel, 560 páginas, R$
59,00
Maiores detalhes: http://usuarios.uninet.com.br/~schambil/dic.html

----- Original Message -----
From: "P E T E R P A N"
Newsgroups: rec.travel.latin-america,soc.culture.brazil,rec.travel.misc
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 6:32 PM
Subject: Travelling to Rio


According to the articles I was able to pull out of the net on a quick
search,

[rest snipped]

This makes me wonder why you didn't do your quick search BEFORE you
went.
If I remember your initial post correctly, you were surprised that the
carnival in Rio was not a street event, but took place in the
Sambodromo some way away from the centre of town. You expressed
disappointment that Carnival was basically something where the poor
go, rather than the middle and upper classes. It this was news to you,
you obviously didn't do any research before you went on your trip. All
of which made me conclude that were a real burk and ignore the rest of
your ramblings.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion. Nobody forced you to come
to Rio. You didn't like it? Too bad. You ran into some nasty people?
I'm sorry to hear that. But what's the crusade about? Fighting the
axis of evil?

Peter

Dear Lise,

You call the initial post below by this dumb loser Kurko a mild
comment? I hate to know what would be considered rude and offensive by
Brazilians!

I posted the bad experience to warn other tourists from running into
the same problem! This stupid jerk Kurko blamed the whole incident on
me, the victim, instead of the muggers! Is that how Brazilians
approach life? Is that fair?

When I posted other articles on organized crimes, this loser Kurko was
not able to debate any issues. He instead started to smear me with
his stupid sexual innuendos and dumb acusations!

I took far more cautions in Rio than in any big city in the world, and
I still came very close to losing my life or suffering serious
injuries at the hands of thugs, who must be hiding in dark corners,
waiting for their preys, right behind the Copacabana Palace hotel!

You think I am naive? I did quite a bit of adventure-type traveling
throughout the world, living very close to the natives to try to
understand the real issues affecting their lives! I did research
information from travel sources and talked to local people in Rio.
However, the well-known poverty and crime problems turned out to be
far worse than all other big cities in the world, shocking in fact!

What I posted about Rio are my true experiences and some articles that
showed the organized crime problem as far more violent and abusive of
the poor people in the favelas than I could previously imagined!
Believe me, my heart is for these poor people. They must have a
horrible life eking out a living doing menial jobs during the day,
then putting up with the abuses by the drug lords at night! By
blaming the crimes on the victims, or hiding the facts about the
crimes, you are not helping anyone but the criminals. You are instead
encouraging the criminals to abuse the favelas residents and the
tourists even more!

Did you see any constructive suggestions from these dumb, nasty jerks
Kurko and JohnM on how the crimes and threats levels in Rio can be
reduced? Or are they just trying to shut me up and cover up the
crimes situation in Rio like they are losing their money and their
pride big time because of my posts?

I am very disappointed in ignorant, dishonest, rude and abusive people
like Kurko and JohnM. I am disappointed in you for siding with these
2 pieces of trash against the truth, and against my attempt to shine
some light on this horrible crime problems in Rio, so some good can be
done.


************************************
Hello!

Excuse me, but by all means who is such a stupid **** to walk during
the
night in any major
city in the world.

Actually these "thugs" should've removed you from the genepool.


Kurko


Lise Sedrez wrote in message ...
Dear Mr. Pan,



3 – Finally, if you get so fired up by a relatively mild comment such as
Kurko’s initial post, well, maybe you should avoid not only the dark
streets of Rio, but also the Usenet altogether. Toughen up!

At this point, please feel free to insult Brazilians for what a born and
raised Brazilian told you. Even worse: I was born and (mostly) raised in
Rio de Janeiro city.

I have seen my beloved, gorgeous city change a lot in the last 20
years—unfortunately not always for good. Having somehow a “gringo”
appearance, I have been mistaken by a tourist very often, by thugs as
well as by well-intentioned cariocas who tried to educate me on how to
be safe in the city. I am glad, however, that it never prevented me from
enjoying my city, and I have never let violence steal from me the right
to uncover its beauty and charm. This doesn’t mean I don’t take
precautions, as everybody else does in Rio. For instance, when I take
friends with me to the Feira de São Cristovão, in a not so safe area,
but where you can find delicious northeastern delicacies, I make sure
that we go there in groups of 4 or 5, and that we leave—also
together—with the family crowd, by midnight. I avoid going out at night
alone, but, if I am all by myself, it is better to go home at 7 am than
at 2 am. And there are many perfectly safe places, not too expensive,
where you can bid your time. Just ask a local person, that is what I do
when a go to another country. (I have also travelled rather
extensively, and, except for one bad experience in the US, which I am
the first to admit that resulted from my being naïve, my ask-a-local
methodology works just fine everywhere). In fact, even when I go to a
new place in Rio, I try to talk to a “native” beforehand, asking what is
Ok and what is not ok to do in such place—be it a favela, a new
neighborhood, or only a more isolated patch of forest.

As I current live in a suburb city in the US, where most restaurants
close at 9 pm (even on Saturdays!), I miss the midnight dinners, the
dancing, the chorinho bars at Lapa, the kiosks in the Lagoa Rodrigo de
Freitas, the shows and art galleries in the Cultural Corridor, the
saveiro-tour in Guanabara Bay), the mangrove forests, the Tijuca urban
forest, the beaches (each one with a different personality), the
peregrination for used book in "sebos" in downtown Rio, the juice
stands—with oh so many exotic fruit names--, climbing the SugarLoaf (it
is not so difficult, and there are several alternative tourist agencies
that can take you there), the hidden treasures that are the Museu da
Chácara do Céu or the Museu da imagem do inconsciente, the incredible
garden of Burle Marx, the cosmopolitan bars in the Zona Sul and the
little-town feeling in some suburbs… I could go on and on.

Again, I am sorry that you had a bad experience in Rio; but I am even
sorrier for you, that you allowed that experience to blind you for
everything Rio could have offered you.

Best,

Lise