Travelling to Rio

I woudl hope that other countries would understand why Americans are gunshy
and may be subjecting travelers to unusual checks - by the way are any
Brazilians help fight terrorism? just wondering?

So since Brazil has placed these NEW get-back-atcha strategies, I happily
take my business elsewhere.
I don't knock Brazilians by the way - I love their hospitality, language and
varied races - but what purpose does the new strategy have? Inever n=knew
Brazilian o be vindictive.

When Brazilians want to visit US, they must do all you said plus more.
Brazilians must show bank and credit card statments, show property
ownership proof and more. The interview, both at the embassy and
airport, also sucks. Also, the INS can lock you in a little room
and/or send you back right after your arrival, with no explanation.
So, Brazilians don't want to travel to US anymore.

(P E T E R P A N) wrote in message om...
The hassles by Brazil's government for Americans to apply in person,
and to pay US$100 fee, for 3-month multiple entry visa, is very
inconvenient and annoying. One basically has to waste at least half a
day showing up, waiting in the counsulate office to turn in the
application, then another half a day to pick up the visa.

I almost skipped the visit to Brazil because of the nonsense
requirement to apply for visa in person with an intinerary, which is
dependent upon when the visa is approved, and the fact that VARIG's
quote for my intinerary kept increasing from US$620, to $980, to $1100
then US$1400, as I waited for the visa. I went through with the visa
procedures because I already booked with VARIG. As I waited to pick
up the visa at the LA counselate, the old bald-headed man was very
rude, throwing the appointment paper back at me before I could explain
my problems with VARIG. Luckily a young woman on staff picked up the
paper and helped me picked up the visa.

As I waited for the visa, I had to delay the flight confirmation with
VARIG a few times. VARIG kept confirming then erasing my reservations,
therefore the ever increasing fares. As I was talking to VARIG's
sales manager, she resentfully complained about the US$100 visa fee
which the US is charging everyone in the rest of the world, except 8
countries. She said the US$100 visa fee is very high relative to
Brazilians' earning and she, like many other Brazilians, would not
like to visit the US. Her office has 5 employees, doing all the
booking in Sao Paolo, 2 hours ahead of EST, so be careful of their
deadlines!

After picking up the visa, I went through a travel agent in LA and
booked a much more direct intinerary on roughly the same dates via
United Airlines for US$1100.

I met some Italian tourists in Argentina who claimed they were charged
US$140 for the visa, which they promptly skipped! These Italian
tourists are wealthy and they could easily afford the visa fee. They
could easily spend US$3000 per person or more, 20 times the visa fees
on Brazilian products and services if they visit Brazil! However,
these Italians did not think highly of the Brazilian government by its
visa requirements, so they decide not to bother visiting Brazil. This
is the case where the false pride, arrogance and greed of Brazilian
government officials are showing glaringly in front of the world, and
they definite damage the people of Brazil in their good wills as well
as their pocket books!

I wanted to go to Rio to see the Carnaval, but it turns out to be a
big disappointment. This festival is now organized in a staged
location downtown Rio, called the Sambadromo, near the favela slum
areas. The tickets for the first competition week is very expensive,
minimum US$90. The second week was cheaper, about $US50. I understand
the real prices are much lower, but the scalpers bought and hoarded
the tickets then resold them at much higher prices. The event had a
lot of empty seats in the expensive areas, like 50% vacancies, so some
of these scalpers must have been burned!

Besides the organized carnaval downtown, various neighborhoods had
their own carnavals on a few streets and parks in Copacabana and
Ipanema, small scale events like any block party, where there are more
street vendors than carousers!

I was told by a few Brazilians at higher socio-economic strata, that
Carnaval is primarily a fantasy for the lower classes. During
Carnaval, schools and shops in Rio are closed. The people with means
in Rio just pack up their families and go out of town on vacation.

It rains heavily just about every other day while I was in Rio. There
were homeless people, mostly blacks and mullatos families with babies,
sleeping on sidewalk everywhere, even in the rain! There were constant
begging and selling on the streets and on the beaches!

There are very few policemen patrolling the streets in Copacabana even
during the Carnaval, the ratio is more like 1 in 10, if compared to
the tourist areas in Buenos Aires. On rainy nights, one could never
find a policeman in Copacabana. That was when I was faced with a few
potential robbers on Rua Dantas, in front of the hotel Mirasol, half a
block behind the famous and ritzy Copacabana Palace hotel on the
beach.

I had gotten out of the internet store late at night and stopped to
buy cigarettes at a small coffee shop next door, which still had a
dozen people, customers and waiters. As I walked out of the shop, I
stopped on the sidewalk to lit a cigarette. That was when this dark,
scruffy guy, wearing a white shirt, came out of nowhere, talking to me
in Portugeese. I thought he wanted a cigarette so I offered him the
pack. He ignored my offer, kept talking firmly and threateiningly in
Portugeeze, repeating the phrase "No problem...". I moved out to the
street. He blocked my way, grabbing and holding my shirt firmly with
both hands. I pulled away, he refused to let go. At the same time,
out of the corner of my eyes, I saw a few other guys running toward us
from the dark street corners. The street was dark, wet and deserted.
Suddenly there was noone on the street but the thugs.

I suddenly feel a deep regret that I had let myself ambushed by a
bunch of thugs, then the horrible fear of fighting 4 guys, getting
stabbed and lying in a pool of blood on a dark, wet street in Rio!
Then I feel very angry at these thugs. I am ready to battle these
dumb *******s! I started screaming " HELP, HELP, HELP..." There was
no response. The thug still hang on to my shirt with all his might,
as I dragged him into the middle of the street! As the 3 other thugs
moved closer, I screamed again " POLICIA, POLICIA, POLICIA...." The
thug hesitated. I knocked his hands off my shirt and ran towards Ave.
Rebata Riveiro, where I saw some cars running. The thugs chased me
half a block before they disappeared into the darkness.

I ran passed the metro station on Rebata Reveiro and got to the
Copacabana Hotel Residencia which was open and lit. I asked the hotel
clerk to call the police but he refused, on ground I am not a guest.
After much discussion, one of the clerk took me back 1.5 blocks to the
metro station where there is a small police booth. A policeman sat
there watching with a few pieces of bread, bottles of water and a
radio on hs small desk. As I explained in broken Spanish the attempted
robbery by a thug wearing " chemise branca..." he got on the radio and
soon there was a few patrol cars flashing lights in the area. They
called on a military policeman who can speak English. He arrived and
turned out to be the young MP guy who is always guarding the corner of
Ave. Copacabana on the Northwest West side of the Copacabana Palace
Hotel! Later an old police seargent arrived in a patrol car with
sandwiches and cokes for the guy on watch.

The police found noone matching my descriptions in the area and
offered to take me back to the alleged crime scene in their patrol car
for further searches. I declined. They must have run away. I wanted to
file a police report of the attempted robery but the police seargent
declined since no property was lost. An ambulance screamed past with
sirene and light on Rua Rebata Reveira. The seargent joked drily
(interpreted to me by the young MP) that they were probably driving
Japanese tourists, looking for their geishas. They all laughed. He
offered me coffee from his thermo. I graciously declined. It must be
past 1AM. I ran one block back to my hotel with the police patrol
cars following slowly behind.

The next morning, I walked back to the same areas, now full of people,
walking, shopping, even in a light rain. There was a police patrol
car parked, flashing red light at the corner of Rua Rebata Reveiro and
Rua Dantas where I was running for my life the night before. There was
a policeman talking with a Brazilian the corner. The Brazilian speaks
English with ease. His friend moved to Las Vegas, working for the
casinos, watching sattelite TV...I explained to him the incident. He
talked to the police. The policeman knows the alledged crimes. He was
in one of the patrol car that searched the areas the night before. The
Brazilians were very casual about the incident. They were laughing
and suggested that I should pray and thank my God that nothing
happened to me in this perfect ambush, one rainy night in Copacabana.

I walked towards the Copacabana beach. It's now about 11AM. The same
young MP is standing guard behind the Copacabana Palace hotel. The
scruffy old seargent drove past in his patrol car. When do they
sleep? The police force in Rio must be stretched very thin....


"clint" wrote in message .. .
I've been to Rio, three times, and will never return! The government hates
Americans, and it's very dangerous on public transport, and after dark! Why
not go to Buenos Aires?
"Jason Martz" wrote in message
om...
I'm travelling to Rio in a month AFTER Carnival and wanted to know
whether anyone has good info on where to stay in Copa -- im
considering California Othon and Debret -- and what their "guest
policies" are. Since it's my first trip out there I'm also wondering
whether it's safe; whether i need guide to show me around.

Does anyone have any links for the hotels with the biggest suites and
rooms?

pretty much anything people can tell me would be helpful.

thanks,
jay

You can get the same problem in LA, Oakland, Santa Cruz... Mexican and
Black gangs there are very dangerous.

JohnM wrote in message ...
In article , P E T E R
P A N writes

-- snip snip --

I had gotten out of the internet store late at night and stopped to
buy cigarettes at a small coffee shop next door, which still had a
dozen people, customers and waiters. As I walked out of the shop, I
stopped on the sidewalk to lit a cigarette. That was when this dark,
scruffy guy, wearing a white shirt, came out of nowhere, talking to me
in Portugeese. I thought he wanted a cigarette so I offered him the
pack. He ignored my offer, kept talking firmly and threateiningly in
Portugeeze, repeating the phrase "No problem...". I moved out to the
street. He blocked my way, grabbing and holding my shirt firmly with
both hands. I pulled away, he refused to let go. At the same time,
out of the corner of my eyes, I saw a few other guys running toward us
from the dark street corners. The street was dark, wet and deserted.
Suddenly there was noone on the street but the thugs.

-- snip snip --

Erm, continuity problem there, as my editor might say. Was the street
wet, dark and deserted, despite the coffee-shop you had just walked out
of with its dozen people inside? Why didn't you just walk back in if the
guy attacked you 'as you walked out'?

"dajaxon" wrote in message
...
I woudl hope that other countries would understand why Americans are
gunshy
and may be subjecting travelers to unusual checks - by the way are any
Brazilians help fight terrorism? just wondering?

Of course Brazilians are all for fighting against terrorism. But "the war on
terrorism" has (or should have) absolutely nothing to do with hassling
third-world country's citizens. Most of the people involved with 9/11 would
have been caught beforehand if the security checks already in place were
applied (like for instance checking if Atta had actually enrolled in the
school like he told the consulate general), and all terror scares after that
came from Europe! But never once did the U.S. government told the Brazilian
government that computer scanneable passports with biometric information
would be an alternative for the extended hassle, like it is for Europeans.

So it is hard for many Brazilians (yours truly included) to build the bridge
between US-VISIT and "the war on terrorism."

So since Brazil has placed these NEW get-back-atcha strategies, I happily
take my business elsewhere.

So will Brazilians, but I don't think this attitude will help anyone. BTW,
these are OLD "get-back-atcha strategies." Brazil instituted a fee for
issuing visas after U.S. did the same thing to Brazilian applicants.
Brazilians banned visas issued by mail after the U.S. did the same thing to
Brazilians. It is our prerrogative to treat U.S. citizens as well as they
treat ours.

I don't knock Brazilians by the way - I love their hospitality, language
and
varied races - but what purpose does the new strategy have? Inever n=knew
Brazilian o be vindictive.

"Vindictive" means there is an act of retribution involved. I think that
"just" is the word you are looking for here.

B.

**** Rio **** Brazil
"Bruno Carneiro da Cunha" wrote in
message ...
"dajaxon" wrote in message
...
I woudl hope that other countries would understand why Americans are
gunshy
and may be subjecting travelers to unusual checks - by the way are any
Brazilians help fight terrorism? just wondering?

Of course Brazilians are all for fighting against terrorism. But "the war
on
terrorism" has (or should have) absolutely nothing to do with hassling
third-world country's citizens. Most of the people involved with 9/11
would
have been caught beforehand if the security checks already in place were
applied (like for instance checking if Atta had actually enrolled in the
school like he told the consulate general), and all terror scares after
that
came from Europe! But never once did the U.S. government told the
Brazilian
government that computer scanneable passports with biometric information
would be an alternative for the extended hassle, like it is for Europeans.

So it is hard for many Brazilians (yours truly included) to build the
bridge
between US-VISIT and "the war on terrorism."

So since Brazil has placed these NEW get-back-atcha strategies, I
happily
take my business elsewhere.

So will Brazilians, but I don't think this attitude will help anyone. BTW,
these are OLD "get-back-atcha strategies." Brazil instituted a fee for
issuing visas after U.S. did the same thing to Brazilian applicants.
Brazilians banned visas issued by mail after the U.S. did the same thing
to
Brazilians. It is our prerrogative to treat U.S. citizens as well as they
treat ours.

I don't knock Brazilians by the way - I love their hospitality, language
and
varied races - but what purpose does the new strategy have? Inever
n=knew
Brazilian o be vindictive.

"Vindictive" means there is an act of retribution involved. I think that
"just" is the word you are looking for here.

B.

Hi Luis,

Thanks for posting your thoughtful, honest and helpful information on
this subject.

The Italians in question are citizens of Italy, but permanent
residents of the US in West Palm Beach, Florida. Perhaps the Brazil's
counselate treat them differently? They mentioned specifically the
US$140 visa fee and decided to stay away from Brazil! They were
touring South America and were just enjoying entertainment with me in
Argentina. They never seemed to have any strong opinions of anything,
until the subject of Brazil's visa requirement came up!

To answer other posters in this thread, the US was attacked by
terrorists, hijacking 4 airliners full of passengers, including
probably a few Brazilians and other nationalities, slamming them into
US government and business centers. Those are very serious, all-out
war acts! We need to take all measures to make sure such horrible acts
can never again happen!

As a traveler, I would want the US as well as all other countries to
tighten their security, so my life, and those of my family and
friends, will never be jeopardized by a few stupid, despicable
terrorists! The US government and its low-paid, hard-working
employees are responsible to provide this security to everyone
traveling through its territory, with limited resources, while having
to respond to other urgent needs and problems.

There appear to be a bit of misunderstandings between peoples of
different countries and cultures here. I am pretty sure the US
government would love to have travelers from all countries to come to
the US, spending money, bringing creative ideas, rich culture etc...
to enrich its country. I am very sure the US government and most
Americans are very unlikely to turn down money or good
times...However, they have to balance those desires with the
responsibilities to maintain security, laws and order, with limited
resources, in a wide-open and free country, where people are allowed
to move around and do things freely, and the enormous costs and
difficulties in hiring officials to track down errant visitors after
the fact. As reported by various sources, the average cost to the US
government for each employee is about US$100,000 per year. That's the
constraint with which the government must figure out how to manage its
respinsiblities and resources.

I don't understand why Brazilians, including a professor friend, would
think the US government would act, not driven by absolutely critical
needs, but to just spite and denigrate any people in the world with
its visa procedures. This present elected US government has to provide
for some very serious and urgent needs for the people. I do not
believe it can afford to be anything but very practical and
conservative.

While I want the added security, as a US citizen, I do not like the
new inconveniences imposed upon me personally, such as having to show
up personally at various government agencies to confirm my identity
for driver license, SS card, passport, waiting in long lines at
airport security check points etc.... I am sure many people found the
US government's immigration policies and practices, as well as
attitudes of US embassy employees offensive. Please consider that
they are required by US laws and political pressures to do very good
jobs with very limited time and resources.

Please also be informed that the bureaucrats at various US embassies
are actually very low-paid workers, who have to work long, hard hours,
exposing their families to a lot of personal risks and inconveniences,
to do their jobs for their country. These bureaucrats are actually
very near the bottom rungs on the socio-economic status ladder in the
US. A lot of those workers are highly educated and idealistic young
people, who bypass safety and comforts in the US, and better and
bigger opportunities elsewhere, to work for the US diplomatic corp.,
just to be able to travel and to mix with other peoples of the world.
My family has a few people working at various US embassies, so I
understand their circumstances first-hand!

Please understand their responsibilities and excuse them if they do
not appear friendly. They are there to do very serious and
professional jobs. If they are all friendly, then Osama Bin Laden
would have smuggled divisions of Jihad terrorists into the US. To make
friends, you may want to meet them after work hours, and show them
your thoughtful concerns as well as the true goodness and hospitality
of your people. That way you can both exchange your views and your
culture without official restraints.

I myself would be delighted to have open, honest, fun, friendly, equal
and peaceful relationships with the peoples I visit, whether they are
the kings of the heaps or just poor nomads tending their herds! I
would rather focus on all possible short term and long term mutual
benefits between respective peoples, and just ignore all the empty,
self-serving posturing by the politicians! The American people is
much bigger, more understanding and more generous than the
narrowly-focused government it elects to serve. I know personally of a
few critical needs from friendly countries that were met very quickly
through the US democratic process, just on basis of mutual friendship.

Another thing you should know about US bureaucrats is that they are
very sensitive to keeping their low-paying government jobs and their
retirement pensions. If you feel you have been mistreated or
discriminated, by all means take down the names of the bureaucrats
involved, along with the facts and witnesses. You should then write
letters to the responsible managers to seek redress, or you should
obtain lawyers and sue everyone involved for large compensations. I
remember a few Bosnian women, who were raped by Slobodan Melosevich's
troops, got contingency lawyers and sued the Bosnian government in a
New York federal court in 2000, and were granted the rights to collect
millions dollars of damages against that government.

This option is recommended to people of friendly countries but is
obviously closed to hostile, violent and evil tyrants like Osama Bin
Laden and Sadam Hussein etc... These terrorists are resolutely
referred to the Big Complaints Office, staffed by the US Department of
Defense with their brave young men and women, who expertly use their
fine aircraft carriers, top-notch aircrafts, smart missiles and
precision munitions to deal with any threats from evil terrorists....

Anyway, I hope that US bureaucrats are not losing our shirts
processing the $100 visa applications with all that background checks
required to filter out terrorists. I hope that these bureaucrats are
smart enough to make the visa process very easy and dignified for
people with worthwhile purposes, such as business meetings, technology
conferences, scholarly exchanges, exchange students, medical
treatments, charity activities… to promote mutual understanding,
benefits and growth among peoples.

I advised a few students in Argentina and Chile that public
universities in California actively recruit a lot of top talents from
many countries, paying tuition, activity fees and some living
expenses, providing part-time jobs in teaching or research, primarily
for graduate students in engineering and technologies, subsidized in
parts by research grants from the US government. I heard that each
department in each school has opening for 10 students from each major
country. Schools in other states are presumably taking advantages of
similar grant programs, so there should be a lot of openings. Of
course the situation changes from year to year, depending on how much
budget is left after the war against terrorists and the massive hiring
of people and buying equipment to improve homeland security.

Let's hope that we are all devoting our intelligence, energy and faith
in improving peace, prosperity and happiness for all peoples!


João Luiz wrote in message ...

I met some Italian tourists in Argentina who claimed they were charged
US$140 for the visa, which they promptly skipped! These Italian
tourists are wealthy and they could easily afford the visa fee. They
could easily spend US$3000 per person or more, 20 times the visa fees
on Brazilian products and services if they visit Brazil! However,
these Italians did not think highly of the Brazilian government by its
visa requirements, so they decide not to bother visiting Brazil.

Sorry to say, but this information is as false as it can be.
No citizen from the European Union needs a tourist visa for Brazil,
the same way no Brazilians need any tourist visa for any country
in the EU.

I understand your logic, and to be sincere I do not get why some
Brazilians go through the humiliation of getting a visa for the
USA, when they could be spending their hard earned money in a
place that treats them with a lot more dignity like Europe.


I wanted to go to Rio to see the Carnaval, but it turns out to be a
big disappointment. This festival is now organized in a staged
location downtown Rio, called the Sambadromo, near the favela slum
areas.

If you had asked before, we could have warned you about the tourist
trap Rio's Carnival has turned into.
Any place e.g. in the Northeastern coast beats it by far.


Sorry to read about your bad experience, but if you ever think of
visiting Brazil again, my counsel is: just skip Rio.

JL

Dear JohnM,

For one thing, the entire incident happened very quickly, in a matter
of 1 or 2 minutes. I was in fear for my life and I did not have a lot
of time or in position to think of all alternative courses of actions.
I just acted instinctively. This was the first time I faced potential
violence in some 30 years. I was never in more fear, even in downtown
Los Angeles, San Francisco or New York City at night! The local
Brazilians all think I was very lucky to escape death or serious
injuries that night!

You could have suggested precautions or solutions, rather than trying
to pick holes in my story, which just shows that you are not
sympathetic to a lone tourist in distress, but are probably siding
with the thugs, victimizing unsuspecting preys! I do not believe you
have good, unselfish motivations in this case!

When the initial thug confronted me, I had walked past the café a few
houses. The customers were sitting inside the cafe due to the rain. I
was roughly past the Hotel Mirasol with its large glass front across
the street. When I glanced other thugs running toward me from other
corners, a vision of my lifeless body lying in a pool of blood was
very clear in my head! Instinctlively I felt back tracking towards
the café would put me closer to the incoming thugs. I pulled the first
thug out to the middle of the street, roughly in front of the hotel
Mirasol, and screamed "HELP, HELP, HELP…" but there were no response
from anyone, anywhere. In a matter of seconds, I decided that "
POLICIA …" may work better and immediately started bellowing. I had
to make quick decisions and ran fast basically to save my own life. I
saw running cars with head lights on Rebata Reveiro and I quickly ran
towards them.

When I rethink the whole incident, the closest hotel would have been
the Mirasol, which would have staff in the lobby. But I am not sure
if they would bother to open their door to assist a tourist in
distress. The Copacabana Hotel Residencia was definitely not
interested in helping or taking any actions. The police also acted
very casually, as if they ran into these violent incidents many times
everyday. Despite the warm personality of the policemen and their
willingness to help, I had reservations that they could be effective
after dealing with them. I had my distrust then, and I declined to
get into their patrol cars for the search or to return to the hotel!

A number of people, presumably with more experience in Brazil, have
since written me private emails suggesting I skip Brazil. I found,
through my own experience, some serious flaws of characters in the
Brazilian people in Rio, such as the couple guys I found the first day
who would pee openly on the streets in broad day light, sometimes on
someone else cars' doors, right on very busy streets like Rebata
Reveiro or Copacabana. Every street in Copacabana stinks of urine and
fresh sewage! These are bad things that happened in the best parts of
Rio, not in the favela, where the impoverished residents may deserve
excuses for their uncivil actions. I also found some disturbingly bad
attitudes among various young, old, educated and wealthy Brazilians in
Rio, Sao Paolo etc… which I will write down when I have time.

My opinions of Brazil and her people, after much reviews of the
events, facts and rationalizations, to be honest, very low. I do not
stand to gain or lose anything by posting my information and opinions
on Brazil. I do it only to inform fellow travelers. I advised a new
friend in Rio, a pretty girl from Spain, against walking in the rain
at night in Rio which she felt was romantic! A number of people
emailed me suggesting not walking in Rio at all!

Your attitude helps convince me firmly that Brazil is not on top of
the list of countries I want to visit!


JohnM wrote in message ...
In article , P E T E R
P A N writes

-- snip snip --

I had gotten out of the internet store late at night and stopped to
buy cigarettes at a small coffee shop next door, which still had a
dozen people, customers and waiters. As I walked out of the shop, I
stopped on the sidewalk to lit a cigarette. That was when this dark,
scruffy guy, wearing a white shirt, came out of nowhere, talking to me
in Portugeese. I thought he wanted a cigarette so I offered him the
pack. He ignored my offer, kept talking firmly and threateiningly in
Portugeeze, repeating the phrase "No problem...". I moved out to the
street. He blocked my way, grabbing and holding my shirt firmly with
both hands. I pulled away, he refused to let go. At the same time,
out of the corner of my eyes, I saw a few other guys running toward us
from the dark street corners. The street was dark, wet and deserted.
Suddenly there was noone on the street but the thugs.

-- snip snip --

Erm, continuity problem there, as my editor might say. Was the street
wet, dark and deserted, despite the coffee-shop you had just walked out
of with its dozen people inside? Why didn't you just walk back in if the
guy attacked you 'as you walked out'?

In article , P E T E R
P A N writes
Your attitude helps convince me firmly that Brazil is not on top of
the list of countries I want to visit!

I thought you had. Never mind.

--
JohnM
Author of Brazil: Life, Blood, Soul
http://www.scroll.demon.co.uk/spaver.htm

Hello!

Excuse me, but by all means who is such a stupid **** to walk during the
night in any major
city in the world.

Actually these "thugs" should've removed you from the genepool.


Kurko

On 7 Mar 2004 18:10:33 -0800, P E T E R P A N
wrote:

Dear JohnM,

For one thing, the entire incident happened very quickly, in a matter
of 1 or 2 minutes. I was in fear for my life and I did not have a lot
of time or in position to think of all alternative courses of actions.
I just acted instinctively. This was the first time I faced potential
violence in some 30 years. I was never in more fear, even in downtown
Los Angeles, San Francisco or New York City at night! The local
Brazilians all think I was very lucky to escape death or serious
injuries that night!

You could have suggested precautions or solutions, rather than trying
to pick holes in my story, which just shows that you are not
sympathetic to a lone tourist in distress, but are probably siding
with the thugs, victimizing unsuspecting preys! I do not believe you
have good, unselfish motivations in this case!

When the initial thug confronted me, I had walked past the café a few
houses. The customers were sitting inside the cafe due to the rain. I
was roughly past the Hotel Mirasol with its large glass front across
the street. When I glanced other thugs running toward me from other
corners, a vision of my lifeless body lying in a pool of blood was
very clear in my head! Instinctlively I felt back tracking towards
the café would put me closer to the incoming thugs. I pulled the first
thug out to the middle of the street, roughly in front of the hotel
Mirasol, and screamed "HELP, HELP, HELP…" but there were no response
from anyone, anywhere. In a matter of seconds, I decided that "
POLICIA …" may work better and immediately started bellowing. I had
to make quick decisions and ran fast basically to save my own life. I
saw running cars with head lights on Rebata Reveiro and I quickly ran
towards them.

When I rethink the whole incident, the closest hotel would have been
the Mirasol, which would have staff in the lobby. But I am not sure
if they would bother to open their door to assist a tourist in
distress. The Copacabana Hotel Residencia was definitely not
interested in helping or taking any actions. The police also acted
very casually, as if they ran into these violent incidents many times
everyday. Despite the warm personality of the policemen and their
willingness to help, I had reservations that they could be effective
after dealing with them. I had my distrust then, and I declined to
get into their patrol cars for the search or to return to the hotel!

A number of people, presumably with more experience in Brazil, have
since written me private emails suggesting I skip Brazil. I found,
through my own experience, some serious flaws of characters in the
Brazilian people in Rio, such as the couple guys I found the first day
who would pee openly on the streets in broad day light, sometimes on
someone else cars' doors, right on very busy streets like Rebata
Reveiro or Copacabana. Every street in Copacabana stinks of urine and
fresh sewage! These are bad things that happened in the best parts of
Rio, not in the favela, where the impoverished residents may deserve
excuses for their uncivil actions. I also found some disturbingly bad
attitudes among various young, old, educated and wealthy Brazilians in
Rio, Sao Paolo etc… which I will write down when I have time.

My opinions of Brazil and her people, after much reviews of the
events, facts and rationalizations, to be honest, very low. I do not
stand to gain or lose anything by posting my information and opinions
on Brazil. I do it only to inform fellow travelers. I advised a new
friend in Rio, a pretty girl from Spain, against walking in the rain
at night in Rio which she felt was romantic! A number of people
emailed me suggesting not walking in Rio at all!

Your attitude helps convince me firmly that Brazil is not on top of
the list of countries I want to visit!


JohnM wrote in message
...
In article , P E T E R
P A N writes

-- snip snip --

I had gotten out of the internet store late at night and stopped to
buy cigarettes at a small coffee shop next door, which still had a
dozen people, customers and waiters. As I walked out of the shop, I
stopped on the sidewalk to lit a cigarette. That was when this dark,
scruffy guy, wearing a white shirt, came out of nowhere, talking to me
in Portugeese. I thought he wanted a cigarette so I offered him the
pack. He ignored my offer, kept talking firmly and threateiningly in
Portugeeze, repeating the phrase "No problem...". I moved out to the
street. He blocked my way, grabbing and holding my shirt firmly with
both hands. I pulled away, he refused to let go. At the same time,
out of the corner of my eyes, I saw a few other guys running toward us
from the dark street corners. The street was dark, wet and deserted.
Suddenly there was noone on the street but the thugs.

-- snip snip --

Erm, continuity problem there, as my editor might say. Was the street
wet, dark and deserted, despite the coffee-shop you had just walked out
of with its dozen people inside? Why didn't you just walk back in if the
guy attacked you 'as you walked out'?




--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

I walked many cities at night, including LA, San Francisco, New York,
Miami, London, Paris, Rome, Tokyo, Seoul, Bangkok, Singapore, Kuala
Lumpur, Denpasar, Jakarta, Buenos Aires, Montevideo ... without any
problems!

It is the stupid, nasty *sshole like you and dumb thugs, thieves,
robbers and the savages, who would p*ss on sidewalks and someone else'
cars on the busy streets of Rio in broad day light, who should be
removed from the gene pool! Stupid, ignorant nasty trash like you are
a shame and a grave threat for all mankind!

As everyone can see, this nasty guy Kurko confirms that Brazil is a
very unsafe, lawless place, populated by a lot of dumb savages like
himself. Visitors to Brazil, Rio and Sao Paolo, have a very high
probability of getting robbed or beaten. Don't expect local people to
help when you need it!


Kurko wrote in message ...
Hello!

Excuse me, but by all means who is such a stupid **** to walk during the
night in any major
city in the world.

Actually these "thugs" should've removed you from the genepool.


Kurko

On 7 Mar 2004 18:10:33 -0800, P E T E R P A N
wrote:

Dear JohnM,

For one thing, the entire incident happened very quickly, in a matter
of 1 or 2 minutes. I was in fear for my life and I did not have a lot
of time or in position to think of all alternative courses of actions.
I just acted instinctively. This was the first time I faced potential
violence in some 30 years. I was never in more fear, even in downtown
Los Angeles, San Francisco or New York City at night! The local
Brazilians all think I was very lucky to escape death or serious
injuries that night!

You could have suggested precautions or solutions, rather than trying
to pick holes in my story, which just shows that you are not
sympathetic to a lone tourist in distress, but are probably siding
with the thugs, victimizing unsuspecting preys! I do not believe you
have good, unselfish motivations in this case!

When the initial thug confronted me, I had walked past the café a few
houses. The customers were sitting inside the cafe due to the rain. I
was roughly past the Hotel Mirasol with its large glass front across
the street. When I glanced other thugs running toward me from other
corners, a vision of my lifeless body lying in a pool of blood was
very clear in my head! Instinctlively I felt back tracking towards
the café would put me closer to the incoming thugs. I pulled the first
thug out to the middle of the street, roughly in front of the hotel
Mirasol, and screamed "HELP, HELP, HELP…" but there were no response
from anyone, anywhere. In a matter of seconds, I decided that "
POLICIA …" may work better and immediately started bellowing. I had
to make quick decisions and ran fast basically to save my own life. I
saw running cars with head lights on Rebata Reveiro and I quickly ran
towards them.

When I rethink the whole incident, the closest hotel would have been
the Mirasol, which would have staff in the lobby. But I am not sure
if they would bother to open their door to assist a tourist in
distress. The Copacabana Hotel Residencia was definitely not
interested in helping or taking any actions. The police also acted
very casually, as if they ran into these violent incidents many times
everyday. Despite the warm personality of the policemen and their
willingness to help, I had reservations that they could be effective
after dealing with them. I had my distrust then, and I declined to
get into their patrol cars for the search or to return to the hotel!

A number of people, presumably with more experience in Brazil, have
since written me private emails suggesting I skip Brazil. I found,
through my own experience, some serious flaws of characters in the
Brazilian people in Rio, such as the couple guys I found the first day
who would pee openly on the streets in broad day light, sometimes on
someone else cars' doors, right on very busy streets like Rebata
Reveiro or Copacabana. Every street in Copacabana stinks of urine and
fresh sewage! These are bad things that happened in the best parts of
Rio, not in the favela, where the impoverished residents may deserve
excuses for their uncivil actions. I also found some disturbingly bad
attitudes among various young, old, educated and wealthy Brazilians in
Rio, Sao Paolo etc… which I will write down when I have time.

My opinions of Brazil and her people, after much reviews of the
events, facts and rationalizations, to be honest, very low. I do not
stand to gain or lose anything by posting my information and opinions
on Brazil. I do it only to inform fellow travelers. I advised a new
friend in Rio, a pretty girl from Spain, against walking in the rain
at night in Rio which she felt was romantic! A number of people
emailed me suggesting not walking in Rio at all!

Your attitude helps convince me firmly that Brazil is not on top of
the list of countries I want to visit!


JohnM wrote in message
...
In article , P E T E R
P A N writes

-- snip snip --

I had gotten out of the internet store late at night and stopped to
buy cigarettes at a small coffee shop next door, which still had a
dozen people, customers and waiters. As I walked out of the shop, I
stopped on the sidewalk to lit a cigarette. That was when this dark,
scruffy guy, wearing a white shirt, came out of nowhere, talking to me
in Portugeese. I thought he wanted a cigarette so I offered him the
pack. He ignored my offer, kept talking firmly and threateiningly in
Portugeeze, repeating the phrase "No problem...". I moved out to the
street. He blocked my way, grabbing and holding my shirt firmly with
both hands. I pulled away, he refused to let go. At the same time,
out of the corner of my eyes, I saw a few other guys running toward us
from the dark street corners. The street was dark, wet and deserted.
Suddenly there was noone on the street but the thugs.

-- snip snip --

Erm, continuity problem there, as my editor might say. Was the street
wet, dark and deserted, despite the coffee-shop you had just walked out
of with its dozen people inside? Why didn't you just walk back in if the
guy attacked you 'as you walked out'?