Immigration patrols on domestic Amtrak

Whitelightning wrote:
"Adam H. Kerman" wrote:
Whitelightning wrote:
wrote:
"Whitelightning" said:

Does the liberty that America stands for allow Americans to decide for
themselves if fighting in a war our government has committed us to is the
same as fighting for America?

No it does not, however your free to leave, or free to say no and go to
jail if you lose in court after saying no. I can respect the latter.
There were a large number of people who even after Pearl Harbor considered
WW2 Roosevelts war, not americas war.

You just told us that draft dodgers weren't free to go to Canada, that
they had committed a crime, which is why Carter had to parden them.

So, what's the constitutional basis for this denial of liberty?

The man I most admired who refused to go to Viet Nam was Ali, he stood up
for his beliefs, stuck his chin out and accepted the consequences of his
actions and didn't let it destroy him. That's what made him one of the
greatest in my book, not his ability in the ring.

Those were religious beliefs he couldn't claim to hold as a Christian.
But most of us aren't international celebrity amateur boxing champions.

What has his celebrity status got to do with anything,

That they weren't going to shoot him, that if he were arrested, possibly
tried, it would be a major media circus, that all of the best lawyers in
the country would be fighting to represent him just for publicity.

Even those inmates he'd have been incarcerated with would have treated
him like a celebrity. No one tried to rape or beat up Mike Tyson.

People who aren't celebrities aren't handled with kidd gloves.

On 2007-07-23 18:14:15 -0400, Sapphyre said:

Do you guys ever look stuff up before responding as though I make
things up like types of ID, tax rates for where I live, etc? This
stuff is all easily available on the Internet.

We're not the ones who need the info.

On 2007-07-23 18:05:33 -0400, "Whitelightning"
said:

No it does not, however your free to leave,

Gee! I'm thrilled. "My free to leave."

Just where would you suggest I go? My ancestors came over 150 years ago
from the Sudetenland area of Bohemia, speaking German. If I went back
there now, I'd have to speak Czech, and that would be somewhat of a
challenge.

In other words, do you know how silly you sound saying that those you
don't agree with need to leave the country? Grow up.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:57:15 -0300, Clark F Morris
wrote:

On 23 Jul 2007 15:21:42 GMT, "Adam H. Kerman" wrote:

Sapphyre wrote:

I don't even let employers know that much about me, I show my citizenship ID
card

Canadian CITIZENS are required to carry proof of citizenship? Thus far,
that's an infringement on personal liberty not yet imposed on US citizens.

and SIN card for employment in Canada.

I didn't know Canadians were licensed to sin.

Is that your national health insurance number? Must employers use it for
tax witholding?

As a landed immigrant, I have never heard about a citizenship ID card
and must remember to ask if one exists. The SIN is the Social
Insurance Number and it also is 9 digits.


As a "landed immigrant", you cannot obtain a "citizenship" card. That
comes with the territory after you're naturalized.

Dunno what the exact procedure is now, but in the past on becoming a
citizen, you had the choice of receiving just the "paper" letter/A4
sized certificate, or you could also provide a passport-type photo and
be given a wallet-sized plasticized "Certificate of Canadian
Citizenship".

That plus a BC driver's licence gets me back and forth by land across
the border with no problems... and the requirement for more was
recently put back by the US till the end of September 2008.
rest snipped

On 2007-07-23 18:04:22 -0400, Sapphyre said:

Don't talk me in circles, if you don't get it, ask me to repeat myself
again with a time line, since I refer to various incidents based on
the time they occurred.

If you want information on entering the US, ask the US authorities.
Don't rely on us to be those authorities. And QUIT GRIPING about our
answers to questions you shouldn't be asking to begin with.

Sapphyre wrote:
On Jul 23, 11:08 am, "Adam H. Kerman" wrote:

As far as I know, a permanent resident isn't eligible for a Canadian
passport. According to the US State Department Web site
http://travel.state.gov/a permanent resident is treated like a foreign
national of his country of nationality and would require a non-immigrant
visa (and I assume a passport) to enter the United States, unless a
national of one of the countries from which visas for travel are waived.

Argh, are you talking me in circles to confuse me?
Let me try this again.
1981 I came to Canada, was PR
1999 to 2003 I travelled to the US with foreign passport and filled in
Arrival/Departure card.

I believe that would be a non-immigrant (travel) visa, a form most Canadians
wouldn't have filled out. Most Canadians don't require visas to enter the US.

I had PR status in Canada to return to Canada.

2004 I naturalized, got passport

I never said I had a passport while being a PR,

Quoted above, you just said you entered the US with a foreign (to Canada)
passport, the passport of the country of your previous nationality, yes? Until
the recent change in the law, Canadians not immigrating to the United States
didn't require passports nor visas.

But as you weren't a Canadian at the time, it wouldn't have applied to you,
regardless of your status as a person holding an immigrant visa to Canada.

Don't talk me in circles, if you don't get it, ask me to repeat myself
again with a time line, since I refer to various incidents based on
the time they occurred. No one said that I couldn't go from being a PR
to a Citizen over the past eight years did they? So it's it fair to
assume that I was a PR and am a Citizen now if I'm referring to being
both in the same thread?

I wasn't talking in circles. When I made the comment, it wasn't clear to
me from your messages that you'd subsequently been nationalized.

Your permanent resident card is an immigrant visa, so that you'd have to
present to your own immigration officials to re-enter Canada. Don't see
why you had to show it to enter the US.

I presented it to show I was a permanent resident in Canada, which is
where I have ties. My dad told me to do this to identify me as a
Canadian PR when I entered the US.

I understand you were identifying yourself as friendly at the immigration
check. Don't really know much about immigration law, but I don't see how
showing it complies with US law since it's a foreign visa. I assume that
you were required to show it to return to Canada, yes?

What was your previous nationality?

I won't post it,

Very well. Question withdrawn.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:09:42 -0300, Clark F Morris
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 23:02:50 -0700, Sapphyre
wrote:

On Jul 22, 11:36 pm, Hatunen wrote:
You're confusing me, and maybe some others. Anyone naturalized
can get a passport. Unfortunately some people have trouble
gathering the documents for a passport. There was a day when kids
became naturalized as a matter of coure when their parents were
naturalized, but that was long ago. Providing documentation for a
passport could be a prob;lem for them; I believe they had to
submit their parents' naturalization papers. I have relatives who
had that problem.

It was a hypothetical situation that would apply to someone who isn't
me. No one in particular, just a random person. Someone felt fit to
reply to it with an incomplete argument, so I argued, now everyone is
confused. Forget it, it's not even a real situation. I was speaking in
terms of someone who naturalized, who was born outside the US,
answering the Border Patrol's questions exactly as they were asked,
and whether or not that would cause a problem if that person was
treated the same way I was treated (papers, please). However in my
case, I don't live in the US, so I have papers, and need to provide
papers.

It's hypothetical, so if you're confused, forget it. Making myself
understood is not exactly one of my stronger characteristics,
especially when someone argues with half of what I say and ignores the
other half, then everyone gets confused. I should learn not to argue
with someone who enjoys debating as a pass-time.

We do have a case here in Tucson of a woman who came to the USA
very young and had no idea she wasn't a citizen. She's been
voting here and all, but now this has come out. It's causing here
a real headache because she is actually an illegal, although she
had no idea of that.

That really oughta suck to be her...

As for your earlier comment, yes, everyone should have papers, but how
many people carry their naturalization papers on them all the time?
Most people get ID and documents and carry those (SSN card, driver's
license, state ID card, or whatever else you guys call ID in
Ameirca).

In Canada, I have more ID than most, only because I needed to apply
for this and that to prove I have the right to stay here now that I'm
naturalized. Most people here have a birth certificate, health card,
and driver's license, if even... I know, because I used to take ID
from people as part of my daily job, and i met all sorts who were
probably born here, but couldn't prove it to save their life.

There are a number of people in Canada who found out that they lost
their citizenship due to obscure changes in the law regarding time
spent out of country and other things. Many World War II brides have
gotten caught by another change. I don't recall the details but the
CBC web-site (Canada's national radio/TV network) www.cbc.ca should
have more information.

S.


Canadian citizenship didn't exist till 1 January 1947... the problems
(in simple terms) are tied up with complications from what was known
as being a "British subject"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_nationality_law

Similarly for New Zealand whose law took effect on 1 January 1949

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zea...ationality_law

And presumably much the same for Australia and South Africa...

Nobody wrote:
Clark F Morris wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 23:02:50 -0700, Sapphyre wrote:
On Jul 22, 11:36 pm, Hatunen wrote:

We do have a case here in Tucson of a woman who came to the USA
very young and had no idea she wasn't a citizen. She's been
voting here and all, but now this has come out. It's causing here
a real headache because she is actually an illegal, although she
had no idea of that.

That really oughta suck to be her...

As for your earlier comment, yes, everyone should have papers, but how
many people carry their naturalization papers on them all the time?
Most people get ID and documents and carry those (SSN card, driver's
license, state ID card, or whatever else you guys call ID in Ameirca).

In Canada, I have more ID than most, only because I needed to apply
for this and that to prove I have the right to stay here now that I'm
naturalized. Most people here have a birth certificate, health card,
and driver's license, if even... I know, because I used to take ID
from people as part of my daily job, and i met all sorts who were
probably born here, but couldn't prove it to save their life.

There are a number of people in Canada who found out that they lost
their citizenship due to obscure changes in the law regarding time
spent out of country and other things. Many World War II brides have
gotten caught by another change. I don't recall the details but the
CBC web-site (Canada's national radio/TV network) www.cbc.ca should
have more information.

Canadian citizenship didn't exist till 1 January 1947... the problems
(in simple terms) are tied up with complications from what was known
as being a "British subject"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_nationality_law

I read the article, taking the usual grain of salt. That does not blame
Canada's earlier nationality laws, based on British law. All by
themselves, the Canadians thunk up the concept of expiring citizenship
that had to be renewed on one's 28th birthday. That's outrageous.

Also, I love the bit about unregistered citizens born abroad not having
citizenship recognized, being required to apply for retroactive
recognition by a deadline. The infant's parents would have been
traveling on passport (unless they happened to give birth in the US) and
would have known to apply for a passport, else they couldn't have
brought the kid back into Canada. How isn't that a birth registration?

Merritt has told us the story several times of his son's inability to
prove that he was a native born American, father American, mother
Japanese, born abroad. Finally, they remembered that he was issued a
passport as a newborn infant, and thus the State Department recognized
him as a native.

Surely the same thing is true of Canadians born abroad.

At Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:21:22 -0700 Sapphyre wrote:


On Jul 23, 3:55 pm, "Adam H. Kerman" wrote:
Thanks for confirming my guess, but it would have been more fun to let
me believe that it was for something else...

Is SIN used as a taxpayer identification number too?

It stands for Social Insurance Number, but I often forget readers on
Usenet might not know what we do in Canada, so I should clarify what
these acronyms mean if I'm going to use them.

We supply or SIN when we get new employment, receive welfare/
disability, contribute/withdraw from Canada Pension Plan, contribute
to Employment Insurance, open an interest bearing savings account,
start up a Registered Retirement Savings Plan, buy Canada Savings
Bonds (or Ontario Savings Bonds, don't know if these exist elsewhere),
ummm... someone else from Canada might have more to add to this list.
Credit card companies and lenders often ask for it, but I don't know
if that's legal or what the legislation says about loans and credit.
I've heard it's not legal for them to ask, but then they often refuse
to lend unless it's been provided.

So yes, it is a tax payer identification number. It comes on a little
white plastic card that isn't embossed (not anymore), nor does it
contain a signature (if you've received one after 2004). It says on
the card it's not a valid ID card, however some businesses will still
look at it as ID (Canada Post accepts it for collecting registered
mail, and it's required for processing of student loans).

Hope this helps...
S.

Ah, SIN is Canadian for (USA) SSN...




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On 23 Jul 2007 19:55:56 GMT, "Adam H. Kerman" wrote:

Clark F Morris wrote:
On 23 Jul 2007 15:21:42 GMT, "Adam H. Kerman" wrote:
Sapphyre wrote:

I don't even let employers know that much about me, I show my citizenship
ID card

Canadian CITIZENS are required to carry proof of citizenship? Thus far,
that's an infringement on personal liberty not yet imposed on US citizens.

and SIN card for employment in Canada.

I didn't know Canadians were licensed to sin.

Is that your national health insurance number? Must employers use it for
tax witholding?

As a landed immigrant, I have never heard about a citizenship ID card
and must remember to ask if one exists. The SIN is the Social
Insurance Number and it also is 9 digits.

Thanks for confirming my guess, but it would have been more fun to let
me believe that it was for something else...

Is SIN used as a taxpayer identification number too?

Most definitely.