To all "patriotic" americans...

On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:40:07 -0800, Nomen Nescio wrote
(in message ):

JF, it's selfish of you to only share your wisdom with rec.travel.air alone
and
leave out your friends in the other groups you frequent. Surely they would
want
to read such precious gems as this too, don't you think?

No, really, that's fine. I don't care. Keep your flame war/crap/whatever to
your own group, or better yet just drop it. Who really gives a flying f***?

It should be noted that this carnegie outfit is in no way affiliated with
the university, and is actually based in Moscow, USSR, with a $$$$$
collections office in D.C.


JF Mezei, in nobody disguise, wrote in


all patriotic americans who strongly believe that their government's
actions
were honest and necessary to preserve the United States, you should
take
a
look at the following document:

http://www.ceip.org/files/Publicatio...p?from=pubdate

This is from the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, a
washington
think tank which has spent 6 months researching the issue.

While you may choose to disbelieve your allies outside the USA to
protect
your
own government, perhaps there is a chance you might believe a serious
report
prepared by americans in the United States.


The BBC reported the issuance of this report, and as part of the BBC
report,
it was mentioned how it had been ignored by USA media.

jesus Christ, you have proof your government lied to the american
public
and
the USA media chose not to show this ?????? What the **** is happening
in
the
USA ? Has everyone been anesthetised and remains totally paralysed,
allowing
the government to do everything it wants without being challenged ?

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:20:49 +0000, None wrote:

It should be noted that this carnegie outfit is in no way affiliated with
the university, and is actually based in Moscow, USSR, with a $$$$$
collections office in D.C.

Yes, right. For a dose of reality, look at:

http://www.ceip.org/files/about/about_home.asp

Founded in 1910. By the same Andrew Carnegie who established the
university, presumably.

Andrew Carnegie was the founder of US Steel in the 19th century and was that
century's Bill Gates. He was the richest man in the world, probably
exceeding most monarchs. In the second half of his life, he must have felt
some guilt about the way he did business in the first half, because he
started giving away money to thousands of academic institutions, libraries,
and foundations. Most organizations that have the word "Carnegie" in their
name were the recipient of their funds. That is the connection. Therefore,
I suppose in the loosest sense you can say their is/was an affiliation, but
it is very old, and if it exists at all any more, it is on paper only.

Virtually all major research university refer to themselves as "Carnagie 1"
or "Carnagie 2" institutions, but I doubt that the University of Michigan
and the University of Southern California would refer to themselves as
"affiliates" even though they probably still both cash checks from the
Carnagie Foundation.

Stu


"devil" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:20:49 +0000, None wrote:

It should be noted that this carnegie outfit is in no way affiliated
with
the university, and is actually based in Moscow, USSR, with a $$$$$
collections office in D.C.

Yes, right. For a dose of reality, look at:

http://www.ceip.org/files/about/about_home.asp

Founded in 1910. By the same Andrew Carnegie who established the
university, presumably.

Stuart Friedman wrote:

Andrew Carnegie was the founder of US Steel in the 19th century and was that
century's Bill Gates. He was the richest man in the world, probably
exceeding most monarchs. In the second half of his life, he must have felt
some guilt about the way he did business in the first half, because he
started giving away money to thousands of academic institutions, libraries,
and foundations.

I don't think it was guilt so much as being desirous of leaving a legacy
other than that of one of great "robber barons". Employees of his steel
empire lived at or below the border of poverty, despite the enormity of
his wealth and commercial success. Steel workers endured
life-threatening working conditions and usurious working hours for a pay
scale that today would bring legal calamity to such an employer
(although it is the model by which the 3rd world employers now operate,
which makes "exporting" jobs economically attractive to the
robber-barons of today).

Egotism aside, it is not unheard-of, though it is unusual, for the
"filthy rich" to eventually feel a need to "give something back". If
they happen to get their name emblazoned upon facades nation- or
world-wide, well, such is the price of fame.

--
David J. Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
http://www.djesys.com/

Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/

Stuart Friedman wrote:
Andrew Carnegie was the founder of US Steel in the 19th century and was that
century's Bill Gates. He was the richest man in the world, probably
exceeding most monarchs. In the second half of his life, he must have felt
some guilt about the way he did business in the first half, because he
started giving away money to thousands of academic institutions, libraries,
and foundations.

And he also funded the Peace Palace in The Hague, where the International Court
has its seat. This is the court that deals with differences of opinions between
states, and should not be confused with the International Criminal Court that is
also seated in The Hague. The latter court deals with war crimes etc. The US
once suggested the founding of this court, but is now sabotaging it because of
the very remote chance that a US citizen or serviceman might be brought before
it. That is almost impossible, because the court can only handle charges against
persons who can not be charged in their own country. A nice person like Saddam
Houssein could in principle be charged for this court if Iraq is not capable of
doing so. It is better to let people like him walk free I suppose.

nobody wrote in message ...
[...]

The BBC reported the issuance of this report, and as part of the BBC report,
it was mentioned how it had been ignored by USA media.

jesus Christ, you have proof your government lied to the american public and
the USA media chose not to show this ?????? What the **** is happening in the
USA ? Has everyone been anesthetised and remains totally paralysed, allowing
the government to do everything it wants without being challenged ?


And just why are your shorts tied in a knot over this? The Carnegie
group does not have anything but an opinion. The Bush administration
may have misjudged evidence or even fudged it but who can tell and
what does it matter anyway? They didn't attack Canada, they attacked a
brutal thug in an unstable region of the world. A brutal thug who had
used chemical weapons on thousands of people.

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:37:28 -0800, Dave wrote:


And just why are your shorts tied in a knot over this? The Carnegie
group does not have anything but an opinion. The Bush administration
may have misjudged evidence or even fudged it but who can tell and
what does it matter anyway? They didn't attack Canada, they attacked a
brutal thug in an unstable region of the world. A brutal thug who had
used chemical weapons on thousands of people.

In truth though, having been encouraged by Rumsfeld to do that. You think
Canada should attack Rumsfeld too?

Tony Reed wrote:

In article ,
"David J. Dachtera" wrote:

:I don't think it was guilt so much as being desirous of leaving a legacy
ther than that of one of great "robber barons".

These old "robber barons" all made their money befoe income taxes were
introduced. This is more important than one might think.

Explain.

I blame Henry
Ford for Walmart. I blame the Romans for everything else.

I don't get the connection.

Henry Ford developed mass-production into a viable business model.

Sam Walton developed discounted mass-merchandising into a viable
business model.

Rome developed debauchery, perversion and decadence into an art form.

Where's the link I'm not seeing? ...or is it as simple as "commodity
products" that are affordable to the masses? (Rome doesn't fit the
pattern.)

--
David J. Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
http://www.djesys.com/

Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/

Ah, history in a nutshell. Some folks have the touch!

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 18:48:16 -0500, Warren Oates
wrote:

In article ,
"David J. Dachtera" wrote:

:I don't get the connection.
:
:Henry Ford developed mass-production into a viable business model.
:
:Sam Walton developed discounted mass-merchandising into a viable
:business model.

The Romans like, built the first roads. Henry Ford built the first
vehicle that let a man quickly go by road to the next town where he
could buy cheaper stuff than in his own town. The man did, not being
stupid. Next came paved and numbered highways, boxstores, megamalls, and
Walmart.

On the way we discovered sex and drugs and rock and roll, more or less
in that order.

The Fall of the Roman Empire? Just one of those things.