With The World Environment Day Conference.....

Bill Pittman wrote:
In article . net,
"Stan de SD" wrote:


I don't see that as a "problem" if there aren't a bunch of PC assholes
insisting that the reason these groups are "underrepresented" is somehow due
to "racism"...


If you had spent your early years (1-18) in Kentucky and Missouri, as I
did, you'd KNOW it was due to racism - that is, unless you were
incompetent to judge or unwilling to do it.

Your ability to project your experience in the border south to the rest
of the world is interesting.

The entity once known as wrote:

Merlin Dorfman wrote:


In ba.transportation Stan de SD wrote:

that out of nearly 1000 students in the natural sciences department
(Chemistry, Physics, Biology) there were maybe a dozen black students - and
half of those were Africans. Fact of the matter was that black students
simply weren't intrested in that academic track, despite the effort of the
CC to offer all sorts of minority "outreach" programs to minorities.

And why do you suppose that is? And do you see that as a problem,
or should we just shrug our shoulders and move on?


Those very questions are a manifestation of the "I know what's best for
you" hubris that is tightly woven into the American WASP cultural
psychology. This hubris is such an integral part of the culture that we
find it at every point of the political spectrum. The right exhibits this
hubris when it "exports freedom," but the left exhibits it too when it
obssesses about equality.

Is it a problem that blacks are not interested in the academic track of the
hard sciences? It's only a problem because American WASP culture values
technology and science and believes that others should too. Confronted with
the fact that they don't, the cultural reaction is to label the situation
"a problem" and look around for a solution.

But, indeed, why should the ethnic distribution of college students within
specific majors match the ethnic distribution of the general population?
Why must everyone like to study what American WASP culture likes to study?



It is only a problem if some idiot then tries to insist that the hires
in jobs that require a specific major must match the general population
in distribution.

In ba.transportation Stan de SD wrote:

"Merlin Dorfman" wrote in message
...
In ba.transportation Stan de SD wrote:

...

YOUR concept is definitely idiotic. You ignore the fact that there are
different levels of aptitudes, abilities, and even interest in given
areas
among different groups, then scream "racism" when the outcome isn't
"representative". We once had an administrator at a community college
who
had a similar mentality to yours. She decried that blacks were
"underrepresented" in students transferring to math and science programs
in
the UC and CSU systems, and one of the instructors asked her how she
expected 12% of the students accepted to these schools to be black when
only
2-3% of the students in those programs were black to begin with? I
recall
that out of nearly 1000 students in the natural sciences department
(Chemistry, Physics, Biology) there were maybe a dozen black students -
and
half of those were Africans. Fact of the matter was that black students
simply weren't intrested in that academic track, despite the effort of
the
CC to offer all sorts of minority "outreach" programs to minorities.

And why do you suppose that is? And do you see that as a problem,
or should we just shrug our shoulders and move on?

I don't see that as a "problem" if there aren't a bunch of PC assholes
insisting that the reason these groups are "underrepresented" is somehow due
to "racism"...

Suppose all us PC assholes disappeared overnight, and we still
had a situation where only 2-3% of the students in the hard sciences
are black. Do you see that as a problem that the universities, or
the government, or private organizations ought to address, or do you
believe it will correct itself over time, or is it simply not a
problem and therefore it should be ignored?

In ba.transportation The entity once known as wrote:
Merlin Dorfman wrote:

In ba.transportation Stan de SD wrote:
that out of nearly 1000 students in the natural sciences department
(Chemistry, Physics, Biology) there were maybe a dozen black students - and
half of those were Africans. Fact of the matter was that black students
simply weren't intrested in that academic track, despite the effort of the
CC to offer all sorts of minority "outreach" programs to minorities.

And why do you suppose that is? And do you see that as a problem,
or should we just shrug our shoulders and move on?

Those very questions are a manifestation of the "I know what's best for
you" hubris that is tightly woven into the American WASP cultural
psychology. This hubris is such an integral part of the culture that we
find it at every point of the political spectrum. The right exhibits this
hubris when it "exports freedom," but the left exhibits it too when it
obssesses about equality.

I don't think it's a matter of abstractly knowing what's best for
the country. It's that a situation where a large ethnic group is
more or less permanently consigned to economic inferiority leads to
some instability. If you have a group that feels some internal
cohesion and has no stake in the society, you wind up spending
resources on law enforcement that it would be better if we didn't have
to spend. Or else you build walls...but a society where the top
layer has to hire guards to protect itself from the bottom layer has
a lot of instability anyway.
Do you disagree? Do you think the situation is sustainable, or
will correct itself if we quit interfering?

Is it a problem that blacks are not interested in the academic track of the
hard sciences? It's only a problem because American WASP culture values
technology and science and believes that others should too. Confronted with
the fact that they don't, the cultural reaction is to label the situation
"a problem" and look around for a solution.

Is there any point at all in wondering why? It's not just
science and technology, it's all the well-paying jobs, and
therefore it's a situation where ethnic minorities--not all, but
some very large ones--are way OVER represented in the poor-paying
jobs...and in unemployment. And yes, I do believe that that
should not be the case.
Why do you think blacks are less "interested" in science and
technology? Is it genetic?

But, indeed, why should the ethnic distribution of college students within
specific majors match the ethnic distribution of the general population?
Why must everyone like to study what American WASP culture likes to study?

So it's not genetic, it's cultural...blacks are interested in
rap music and sports, while American WASPS (not to mention Asians,
Catholics, Jews, and other groups) are interested in things that
have a much better chance of leading to well-paying jobs. And you
are OK with that?

In ba.transportation Jack May wrote:

"Frank F. Matthews" wrote in message
...

In this situation you come across as far more of a racist.

True, but there is a possibility that he has been taught in a humanities
education culture. For the most part the humanities strongly reject
genetics as having any effect on the characteristics of people .

They are the last hold out on the strongly disproved theory that people are
born as a blank slate and only are molded by the environment. It is a very
ignorant thing to believe, but the humanities have extreme difficulty
believing that everyone can not be the same.

I don't know anybody who believes that everyone should be or is
the same. Which is a very different thing from saying that the
distribution of intelligence and ability should be pretty much the
same for all ethnic groups.

Merlin Dorfman wrote:

In ba.transportation Stan de SD wrote:


"Merlin Dorfman" wrote in message
...

In ba.transportation Stan de SD wrote:

...


YOUR concept is definitely idiotic. You ignore the fact that there are
different levels of aptitudes, abilities, and even interest in given

areas

among different groups, then scream "racism" when the outcome isn't
"representative". We once had an administrator at a community college

who

had a similar mentality to yours. She decried that blacks were
"underrepresented" in students transferring to math and science programs

in

the UC and CSU systems, and one of the instructors asked her how she
expected 12% of the students accepted to these schools to be black when

only

2-3% of the students in those programs were black to begin with? I

recall

that out of nearly 1000 students in the natural sciences department
(Chemistry, Physics, Biology) there were maybe a dozen black students -

and

half of those were Africans. Fact of the matter was that black students
simply weren't intrested in that academic track, despite the effort of

the

CC to offer all sorts of minority "outreach" programs to minorities.

And why do you suppose that is? And do you see that as a problem,
or should we just shrug our shoulders and move on?


I don't see that as a "problem" if there aren't a bunch of PC assholes
insisting that the reason these groups are "underrepresented" is somehow due
to "racism"...


Suppose all us PC assholes disappeared overnight, and we still
had a situation where only 2-3% of the students in the hard sciences
are black. Do you see that as a problem that the universities, or
the government, or private organizations ought to address, or do you
believe it will correct itself over time, or is it simply not a
problem and therefore it should be ignored?



If you want to force all students to take courses in mathematics and
science then, perhaps, you can do something. You can provide students
with an opportunity to take classes but it is difficult to see how to
force them into a major.

Merlin Dorfman wrote:

In ba.transportation The entity once known as wrote:

Merlin Dorfman wrote:


In ba.transportation Stan de SD wrote:

that out of nearly 1000 students in the natural sciences department
(Chemistry, Physics, Biology) there were maybe a dozen black students - and
half of those were Africans. Fact of the matter was that black students
simply weren't intrested in that academic track, despite the effort of the
CC to offer all sorts of minority "outreach" programs to minorities.

And why do you suppose that is? And do you see that as a problem,
or should we just shrug our shoulders and move on?


Those very questions are a manifestation of the "I know what's best for
you" hubris that is tightly woven into the American WASP cultural
psychology. This hubris is such an integral part of the culture that we
find it at every point of the political spectrum. The right exhibits this
hubris when it "exports freedom," but the left exhibits it too when it
obssesses about equality.


I don't think it's a matter of abstractly knowing what's best for
the country. It's that a situation where a large ethnic group is
more or less permanently consigned to economic inferiority leads to
some instability. If you have a group that feels some internal
cohesion and has no stake in the society, you wind up spending
resources on law enforcement that it would be better if we didn't have
to spend. Or else you build walls...but a society where the top
layer has to hire guards to protect itself from the bottom layer has
a lot of instability anyway.
Do you disagree? Do you think the situation is sustainable, or
will correct itself if we quit interfering?


Is it a problem that blacks are not interested in the academic track of the
hard sciences? It's only a problem because American WASP culture values
technology and science and believes that others should too. Confronted with
the fact that they don't, the cultural reaction is to label the situation
"a problem" and look around for a solution.


Is there any point at all in wondering why? It's not just
science and technology, it's all the well-paying jobs, and
therefore it's a situation where ethnic minorities--not all, but
some very large ones--are way OVER represented in the poor-paying
jobs...and in unemployment. And yes, I do believe that that
should not be the case.
Why do you think blacks are less "interested" in science and
technology? Is it genetic?


But, indeed, why should the ethnic distribution of college students within
specific majors match the ethnic distribution of the general population?
Why must everyone like to study what American WASP culture likes to study?


So it's not genetic, it's cultural...blacks are interested in
rap music and sports, while American WASPS (not to mention Asians,
Catholics, Jews, and other groups) are interested in things that
have a much better chance of leading to well-paying jobs. And you
are OK with that?



Again, what intervention do you propose to change the cultural problems?

A tax penalty for all those without a high school degree?

In ba.transportation Frank F. Matthews wrote:


Merlin Dorfman wrote:

....

only

2-3% of the students in those programs were black to begin with? I

recall

that out of nearly 1000 students in the natural sciences department
(Chemistry, Physics, Biology) there were maybe a dozen black students -

and

half of those were Africans. Fact of the matter was that black students
simply weren't intrested in that academic track, despite the effort of

the

CC to offer all sorts of minority "outreach" programs to minorities.

And why do you suppose that is? And do you see that as a problem,
or should we just shrug our shoulders and move on?


I don't see that as a "problem" if there aren't a bunch of PC assholes
insisting that the reason these groups are "underrepresented" is somehow due
to "racism"...


Suppose all us PC assholes disappeared overnight, and we still
had a situation where only 2-3% of the students in the hard sciences
are black. Do you see that as a problem that the universities, or
the government, or private organizations ought to address, or do you
believe it will correct itself over time, or is it simply not a
problem and therefore it should be ignored?


If you want to force all students to take courses in mathematics and
science then, perhaps, you can do something. You can provide students
with an opportunity to take classes but it is difficult to see how to
force them into a major.

I was thinking more along the lines of working at the root cause
of the lack of minority students in these programs...surely it's not
a cultural aversion to high-paying, respected jobs...perhaps there is
something that could be traced to the elementary schools and
remedied...
At any rate, there are options other than ignoring the problem or
"forcing" students into courses and majors.

In ba.transportation Frank F. Matthews wrote:

....

Again, what intervention do you propose to change the cultural problems?

Several have been suggested. A start would be a consensus
that it's a problem for society and we should at least be looking
for a workable approach. Instead of criticizing the approaches
that have been tried or suggested.

A tax penalty for all those without a high school degree?

There is already enough of a penalty...

"Merlin Dorfman" wrote in message
...
In ba.transportation Frank F. Matthews
wrote:

...

Again, what intervention do you propose to change the cultural
problems?

Several have been suggested. A start would be a consensus
that it's a problem for society and we should at least be looking
for a workable approach. Instead of criticizing the approaches
that have been tried or suggested.

A tax penalty for all those without a high school degree?

There is already enough of a penalty...

Besides, the tax penalty increases with the degree in most cases.
Most of those without a high school degree probably don't make enough
to pay any taxes.