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  #11  
Old February 23rd, 2004, 08:41 AM
Graham W
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Default African Doctors

Graham wrote:
this sounds so much like the arguement about Kiwis in Oz. The Kiwis
seem to dislike Australia and Aussies, but they plan never to return
to NZ. I have known quite a few Kiwis in my time..but they neve rwant
to leave..or become citizens.

They take more than they give


You'd have evidence for this claim would you?

I believe I have read that kiwis in Australia generally pay more income
tax and take less in welfare than australian born people. Furthermore,
they typically arrive here after the expensive years in which the New
Zealand state has paid to educate them and bring them up to their income
earning, tax paying, productive years.

Young adult immigrants area a bargain to any country. They come to a
country virtually free, after someone else has invested in education,
healthcare, etc to bring them to working age.
  #12  
Old February 23rd, 2004, 01:01 PM
Raffi Balmanoukian
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Oh dear, you're in a huff now because I don't value citizenship and
ceremonies and fancy certificates which change nothing.


They change a great deal. If, as you have stated, you are neither
Australian nor want to be, you shouldn't be there. You live in a country
which has educated you, provided you with a job, medical care, and so on
(yes, you pay taxes - the absolute minimum you can get away with,
apparently, since part of your citizenship objection is the cost of
obtaining it). You live in a country that values its people - your comment
above reflects the value you put on it.

I'm saddened you're in a wonderful country, but glad you're not in mine.

  #13  
Old February 23rd, 2004, 11:23 PM
Graham
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"Raffi Balmanoukian" a
wrote in message
news:BC5F6682.210A8%walkabout@TAKEOUTTHETRASHTOREP LY.ns.sympatico.ca...


Oh dear, you're in a huff now because I don't value citizenship and
ceremonies and fancy certificates which change nothing.


They change a great deal. If, as you have stated, you are neither
Australian nor want to be, you shouldn't be there. You live in a country
which has educated you, provided you with a job, medical care, and so on
(yes, you pay taxes - the absolute minimum you can get away with,
apparently, since part of your citizenship objection is the cost of
obtaining it). You live in a country that values its people - your

comment
above reflects the value you put on it.

I'm saddened you're in a wonderful country, but glad you're not in mine.


never fear....They wont come to you.....they never leave Oz.
gra



  #14  
Old February 23rd, 2004, 11:28 PM
Graham
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Default African Doctors


"Paul Dwerryhouse" wrote in message
news:avg_b.662647$_x2.1417031@zonnet-reader-1...
"Graham" writes:


this sounds so much like the arguement about Kiwis in Oz. The Kiwis seem

to
dislike Australia and Aussies, but they plan never to return to NZ. I

have
known quite a few Kiwis in my time..but they neve rwant to leave..or

become
citizens.


Why should they? Australia & New Zealand allow (mostly) reciprocal free
movement and work between their respective citizens, in much the same way
that EU countries do.

Are you going to argue that long-term EU expats should take up citizenship
of the countries that they live in?


I actually couldn't give give a damn about long-term EU expats

I just wonder why Kiwis hate us so much, but never go back to the land of
the wrong white crowd...Have you ever heard a Kiwi praise Oz ?


They take more than they give


Nationalist nonsense.


no, its a line from " It should have been me"

so for being Patriotic..you should try it one day.

gra


--
Paul Dwerryhouse | PGP Key ID:
Amsterdam, The Netherlands (X) - Melbourne, Australia ( ) | 0x6B91B584



  #15  
Old February 24th, 2004, 01:20 PM
Raffi Balmanoukian
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in article 8pC_b.680221$_x2.1436842@zonnet-reader-1, Paul Dwerryhouse at
wrote on 2/24/04 2:44 AM:

"Graham" writes:

so for being Patriotic..you should try it one day.


Patriotism is a sign of abject stupity. Every country has individuals who
believe that their own country is the "best place in the world" and they
can't all be right.


The UN Human Development Index had Canada as "best" for many years, a
placement that our Prime Minister trotted out ad nauseum at every
opportunity.

In 2001, Australia took over top ranking. It was huge news in Canada (it
slipped to #3 behind, I believe, Norway). It was barely mentioned, and
hardly news, in Australia that their island continent was now, according to
UN standards, "the best place in the world."

I think it was because it was telling them what they already knew.



I'll leave it to the morons who go to flag raising ceremonies on Australia
day.


Trolling, the last refuge of the scoundrel.

  #16  
Old February 24th, 2004, 01:37 PM
Raffi Balmanoukian
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Default African Doctors

in article NvH_b.683352$_x2.1441912@zonnet-reader-1, Paul Dwerryhouse at
wrote on 2/24/04 8:32 AM:

Trolling, the last refuge of the scoundrel.


No, I genuinely believe that people who willingly go to flag raising
ceremonies
are morons, participating in a pointless tribal ritual.


As one of our former PMs (Trudeau) opined about insults directed at him (by
Nixon): "I've been called worse things by better people."

Now excuse me. The flagS outside my house need adjusting.

  #17  
Old February 24th, 2004, 03:58 PM
Graham W
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Default African Doctors

Oh dear, you're in a huff now because I don't value citizenship and
ceremonies and fancy certificates which change nothing.


Raffi Balmanoukian wrote:
They change a great deal. If, as you have stated, you are neither
Australian nor want to be, you shouldn't be there. You live in a
country which has educated you, provided you with a job, medical care,
and so on (yes, you pay taxes - the absolute minimum you can get away
with, apparently, since part of your citizenship objection is the cost
of obtaining it).


I'm sorry, I didn't realise genuine patriotic Australians volunteer to
pay extra taxes. Clearly I am not worthy.

You live in a country that values its people - your comment
above reflects the value you put on it.


No it doesn't.

It reflects the value I place on citizenship, not on Australia.

I am a citizen of two other countries, one of which I lived in until I
was five, the other of which I have visited for a total of perhaps 4
weeks of my life. My home is Australia, and I don't need a certificate
from the government to prove it.

Let's face it, it wouldn't prove anything anyway, any more than a
marriage licence proves spouses won't stray, since all I have to do is
pay my money and say the right things.
  #18  
Old February 24th, 2004, 04:12 PM
Graham W
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Default African Doctors

Raffi Balmanoukian wrote:
As one of our former PMs (Trudeau) opined about insults directed at
him (by Nixon): "I've been called worse things by better people."


Reminds me of Piggy Muldoon's (past NZ PM) famous comment.

In reply to a journalist's question about a supposed brain drain from NZ
to Australia. He said he wasn't concerned because migration from NZ to
Australia was improving the average IQ in both countries.

Of course Graham would rather see NZ immigrants as some sort of
freeloaders, whilst NZ worries about losing their best and brightest to
us. So which is it?

Now excuse me. The flagS outside my house need adjusting.


I guess having the US overshadowing you so closely does rather put a
different tint on the whole patriotism nonsense.

I'm sure you will have heard this one before, but for the entertainment
of the Aussies:

Some years ago a Canadian newspaper ran a competition. Along the lines
of "As American as apple pie", the contestants had to complete the
phrase "As Canadian as .....".

The winning entry was:


"As Canadian as possible under the circumstances."
  #19  
Old February 24th, 2004, 10:18 PM
Black Bart
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Default African Doctors

Of course Graham would rather see NZ immigrants as some sort of
freeloaders, whilst NZ worries about losing their best and brightest to
us. So which is it?


Wouldn't the best and brightest Kiwi's be the ones who realize they can
come here and freeload?


  #20  
Old February 24th, 2004, 11:11 PM
Alan
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On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 01:58:41 +1100, Graham W
wrote:

No it doesn't.

It reflects the value I place on citizenship, not on Australia.

I am a citizen of two other countries, one of which I lived in until I
was five, the other of which I have visited for a total of perhaps 4
weeks of my life. My home is Australia, and I don't need a certificate
from the government to prove it.

Let's face it, it wouldn't prove anything anyway, any more than a
marriage licence proves spouses won't stray, since all I have to do is
pay my money and say the right things.



This will be my first and last comment after following this thread for a
while.

I don't care which country a person decides to settle in, if they do not
become a citizen of that country then they are a free-loader. There is
far more to citizenship than paying taxes.

For you, of course, if the Oz government decided to discriminate in
favour of citizens when providing services, welfare etc. you'd be the
first to claim that was unfair and undemocratic. But then, how can
anything be undemocratic if you elect not to be a voter? Voting is
compulsory for all Oz citizens not in jail.

Obviously, as a non-citizen, you would get out of military service, jury
duty or any other form of service to your adopted country. So you are
prepared to accept the security of our stable government, but you are
not prepared to support or defend it. But be careful if you travel to
those countries where you are a citizen; you may find you owe them some
military service.

You will also find that, if you are unlucky enough to be charged with
something criminal whilst away from Oz, you may have some difficulty as
a non-citizen in getting back into the country. You may then find your
only option is to settle in one of those other countries.

Do a little googling and you'll also find several cases where people
have been deported to countries they haven't seen since birth (and often
don't speak the language) after committing criminal offences here. It
couldn't happen to you? For example: manslaughter resulting from
careless driving is a criminal offence.

You're like the friend who came to visit, but neglected to leave;
pleasant company until the realisation sets in that this guest intends
to bludge off the rest of us forever.

Goodbye.

Alan

 




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