Trip Report - Singapore / Malaysia

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 22:25:16 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


Pan wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:23:47 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


Alfred Molon wrote:

flyinyereye wrote:

I once saw a woman in KL in full black burka, with a pink helium
balloon
on
a string, whilst her husband was casually dressed in jeans, t-shirt
and
thongs (flip flops). The scene just seemed so wrong.

I think these women choose freely to dress like that - nobody is
forcing
them.


Nonsense. They are forced by their families and husbands and societal
laws
to dress like that. If they don't they'll be shunned - or *worse*, e.g.
stonings and even death.

Can you name the last time a Malaysian was stoned? You're a
bull****ter, which is worse than an ignoramus.


Hey you replied ;-p

You're hopeless, eh?


Are we back to the
"monolithic Communists," only substituting "Muslims" for "Communists"?
Remember what they say about fools speaking.


If you close your eyes *very* tightly and just *wish* it you can be in
Tirana c. 1959!

I'd rather be in Kansas, Toto.

Michael

If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted.

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 22:25:16 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


Pan wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:23:47 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


Alfred Molon wrote:

flyinyereye wrote:

I once saw a woman in KL in full black burka, with a pink helium
balloon
on
a string, whilst her husband was casually dressed in jeans, t-shirt
and
thongs (flip flops). The scene just seemed so wrong.

I think these women choose freely to dress like that - nobody is
forcing
them.


Nonsense. They are forced by their families and husbands and societal
laws
to dress like that. If they don't they'll be shunned - or *worse*, e.g.
stonings and even death.

Can you name the last time a Malaysian was stoned? You're a
bull****ter, which is worse than an ignoramus.


Hey you replied ;-p

You're hopeless, eh?


Are we back to the
"monolithic Communists," only substituting "Muslims" for "Communists"?
Remember what they say about fools speaking.


If you close your eyes *very* tightly and just *wish* it you can be in
Tirana c. 1959!

I'd rather be in Kansas, Toto.

Michael

If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted.

Pan wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:35:13 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


Pan wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 18:28:34 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


mag3 wrote:

Islam Yes, one does see the Islamic orientation of this country but
it's
not "in your face" at all.
in There is very little Arabic script as the national language is
"Bahasa
Malaysia" (which uses
Malays. Romanized alphabet) and not Arabic.


Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic
country
should be a red flag to you.

I disagree. Have you ever been there?


No.


Wonderful people.



That's on a personal level. I am talking about a societal level.

When you visit a country, do you deal with societies or people? I deal
with people.


People make up the societies.


What is the legal status of the women you saw,
their station in life?

Malay women, especially in East Coast states ruled now or until
recently by PAS, have much higher status than they did in the 1970s.
Lots of them own their own businesses. Malaysia is not Saudi Arabia.
Malay women are frequently seen driving cars and motorcycles by
themselves and sell to both men and women.


Wow! Such progress!

What exactly do you want to see? Women professors? They've got 'em.
Women judges? They've got 'em. Women cabinet ministers? They've got
'em. You are an absolute ignoramus about Malaysia. I know from the
inside what things were like in a conservative East Coast village in
the mid 1970s and what they're like now.

[snip]
*Any* nation that follows the rules of Islam is a danger or a potential
danger to world stability.. Islam has proven to be a far greater menace
to
the world than National Socialism ever was.

As a Jew, I condemn your offensive remarks. If the Muslims had taken
over Europe, it seems likely that Jewish lives would have been better
and more secure than they were under hundreds of years of Christian
oppression and period pogroms following the Reconquista. If the Nazis
had taken over the world, I would never have been born.

The Nazis weren't too good to gays, either, in case you forgot about
that.


I don't disagree with you. Nazism was a clear and present menace and
luckily we were able to make a concerted effort to defeat it. WWII worked -
we won and Germany and the world became a better place.

Islam is far more evil because it exists on a much greater scale and is far
more insidious. Many of it's militant adherents are not walking around in
brown shirts and spewing "Sieg Heil"! They look just like you and me. Heck
you probably could not even pick one of them out if they were checking in
for an airline flight. And you'd be real surprised to hear the kind of
stuff that goes in your local mosque. Believe you me, they are not just
some kindly quaint folk like the Amish. Additionally their hatred of Jews
is a given - it's in the air they breathe.

The struggle between medieval Islam and modern western values is going to be
a titanic one and will probably last hundreds of years into the future.
Let's hope the good guys win :-)

--
Best
Greg

Pan wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:35:13 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


Pan wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 18:28:34 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


mag3 wrote:

Islam Yes, one does see the Islamic orientation of this country but
it's
not "in your face" at all.
in There is very little Arabic script as the national language is
"Bahasa
Malaysia" (which uses
Malays. Romanized alphabet) and not Arabic.


Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic
country
should be a red flag to you.

I disagree. Have you ever been there?


No.


Wonderful people.



That's on a personal level. I am talking about a societal level.

When you visit a country, do you deal with societies or people? I deal
with people.


People make up the societies.


What is the legal status of the women you saw,
their station in life?

Malay women, especially in East Coast states ruled now or until
recently by PAS, have much higher status than they did in the 1970s.
Lots of them own their own businesses. Malaysia is not Saudi Arabia.
Malay women are frequently seen driving cars and motorcycles by
themselves and sell to both men and women.


Wow! Such progress!

What exactly do you want to see? Women professors? They've got 'em.
Women judges? They've got 'em. Women cabinet ministers? They've got
'em. You are an absolute ignoramus about Malaysia. I know from the
inside what things were like in a conservative East Coast village in
the mid 1970s and what they're like now.

[snip]
*Any* nation that follows the rules of Islam is a danger or a potential
danger to world stability.. Islam has proven to be a far greater menace
to
the world than National Socialism ever was.

As a Jew, I condemn your offensive remarks. If the Muslims had taken
over Europe, it seems likely that Jewish lives would have been better
and more secure than they were under hundreds of years of Christian
oppression and period pogroms following the Reconquista. If the Nazis
had taken over the world, I would never have been born.

The Nazis weren't too good to gays, either, in case you forgot about
that.


I don't disagree with you. Nazism was a clear and present menace and
luckily we were able to make a concerted effort to defeat it. WWII worked -
we won and Germany and the world became a better place.

Islam is far more evil because it exists on a much greater scale and is far
more insidious. Many of it's militant adherents are not walking around in
brown shirts and spewing "Sieg Heil"! They look just like you and me. Heck
you probably could not even pick one of them out if they were checking in
for an airline flight. And you'd be real surprised to hear the kind of
stuff that goes in your local mosque. Believe you me, they are not just
some kindly quaint folk like the Amish. Additionally their hatred of Jews
is a given - it's in the air they breathe.

The struggle between medieval Islam and modern western values is going to be
a titanic one and will probably last hundreds of years into the future.
Let's hope the good guys win :-)

--
Best
Greg

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 22:31:46 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


Pan wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:29:08 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:

I'm queer. Next question....

I'm a strong supporter of gay rights, but I won't boycott a country
because "sodomy" is illegal there. "Sodomy" was until recently illegal
in various states of my own country, the U.S.A., and I couldn't very
well boycott my own country! Do what you like, but don't expect a lot
of heterosexuals to boycott Malaysia out of sympathy for "sodomites."
Despite the high-profile persecution of Anwar with a humiliating fake
charge of "sodomy," I understand that gays who keep a low profile are
seldom prosecuted. Malaysia is not a country that stones people for
adultery and other consensual sexual offenses.


No they just do periodic "sweeps" and imprison them and cause them a lot of
humiliation.

Sweeps for gay and transsexual prostitutes? What are you referring to?
Somehow, based on your previous attempts to describe a fictional
country you think is called Malaysia, I don't think you know what
you're talking about.

Oh my god - have you ever been to Malaysia ?


Nope. Why would I? I loathe Muslims
[snip]

So we know how seriously to take your remarks.


You think I'm not serious?

I don't take the remarks of bigots seriously, except as indications of
bigotry.

Under orthodox Islam, sodomy is considered an abominable perversion,
much as it has been so considered under Jewish and Christian laws for
most of their recorded histories. That doesn't mean that all Muslims
are the same, nor that they are hateful people. For you to loathe
bigotry against gays is praiseworthy; for you to loathe all Muslims is
bigotry. If some anti-gay Christians can "hate the sin and love the
sinner," you have no excuse for loathing all Muslims.

[snip]
Isn't it nice to live in a place such as the BRD that has strong
protections
for human rights and a strong rule of secular law?

Yeah. So stay home, because most other countries don't have such
strong protections and are places where you wouldn't want to live.



Nonsense. There are plenty of places that would fit my criteria: Canada,
many of the EU countries, Israel, New Zealand, Oz, Japan...

Suit yourself. You wouldn't have been able to countenance visiting
Britain in the 1960s.

Michael

If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted.

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 22:31:46 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


Pan wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:29:08 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:

I'm queer. Next question....

I'm a strong supporter of gay rights, but I won't boycott a country
because "sodomy" is illegal there. "Sodomy" was until recently illegal
in various states of my own country, the U.S.A., and I couldn't very
well boycott my own country! Do what you like, but don't expect a lot
of heterosexuals to boycott Malaysia out of sympathy for "sodomites."
Despite the high-profile persecution of Anwar with a humiliating fake
charge of "sodomy," I understand that gays who keep a low profile are
seldom prosecuted. Malaysia is not a country that stones people for
adultery and other consensual sexual offenses.


No they just do periodic "sweeps" and imprison them and cause them a lot of
humiliation.

Sweeps for gay and transsexual prostitutes? What are you referring to?
Somehow, based on your previous attempts to describe a fictional
country you think is called Malaysia, I don't think you know what
you're talking about.

Oh my god - have you ever been to Malaysia ?


Nope. Why would I? I loathe Muslims
[snip]

So we know how seriously to take your remarks.


You think I'm not serious?

I don't take the remarks of bigots seriously, except as indications of
bigotry.

Under orthodox Islam, sodomy is considered an abominable perversion,
much as it has been so considered under Jewish and Christian laws for
most of their recorded histories. That doesn't mean that all Muslims
are the same, nor that they are hateful people. For you to loathe
bigotry against gays is praiseworthy; for you to loathe all Muslims is
bigotry. If some anti-gay Christians can "hate the sin and love the
sinner," you have no excuse for loathing all Muslims.

[snip]
Isn't it nice to live in a place such as the BRD that has strong
protections
for human rights and a strong rule of secular law?

Yeah. So stay home, because most other countries don't have such
strong protections and are places where you wouldn't want to live.



Nonsense. There are plenty of places that would fit my criteria: Canada,
many of the EU countries, Israel, New Zealand, Oz, Japan...

Suit yourself. You wouldn't have been able to countenance visiting
Britain in the 1960s.

Michael

If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted.

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 22:31:46 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


Pan wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:29:08 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:

I'm queer. Next question....

I'm a strong supporter of gay rights, but I won't boycott a country
because "sodomy" is illegal there. "Sodomy" was until recently illegal
in various states of my own country, the U.S.A., and I couldn't very
well boycott my own country! Do what you like, but don't expect a lot
of heterosexuals to boycott Malaysia out of sympathy for "sodomites."
Despite the high-profile persecution of Anwar with a humiliating fake
charge of "sodomy," I understand that gays who keep a low profile are
seldom prosecuted. Malaysia is not a country that stones people for
adultery and other consensual sexual offenses.


No they just do periodic "sweeps" and imprison them and cause them a lot of
humiliation.

Sweeps for gay and transsexual prostitutes? What are you referring to?
Somehow, based on your previous attempts to describe a fictional
country you think is called Malaysia, I don't think you know what
you're talking about.

Oh my god - have you ever been to Malaysia ?


Nope. Why would I? I loathe Muslims
[snip]

So we know how seriously to take your remarks.


You think I'm not serious?

I don't take the remarks of bigots seriously, except as indications of
bigotry.

Under orthodox Islam, sodomy is considered an abominable perversion,
much as it has been so considered under Jewish and Christian laws for
most of their recorded histories. That doesn't mean that all Muslims
are the same, nor that they are hateful people. For you to loathe
bigotry against gays is praiseworthy; for you to loathe all Muslims is
bigotry. If some anti-gay Christians can "hate the sin and love the
sinner," you have no excuse for loathing all Muslims.

[snip]
Isn't it nice to live in a place such as the BRD that has strong
protections
for human rights and a strong rule of secular law?

Yeah. So stay home, because most other countries don't have such
strong protections and are places where you wouldn't want to live.



Nonsense. There are plenty of places that would fit my criteria: Canada,
many of the EU countries, Israel, New Zealand, Oz, Japan...

Suit yourself. You wouldn't have been able to countenance visiting
Britain in the 1960s.

Michael

If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted.

Sjoerd wrote:

"Gregory Morrow" schreef
in
bericht nk.net...
Do gays have a place in
Malaysian society?

Yes, they do. I have got a very good gay friend in Malaysia who introduced
me to his friends.


Yes Sjoerd I know all about these "friends" of yours. Like those Eastern
European "friends" of yours who told you a giant load of ******** about how
great life was in Ceaucescu's Romania and Honecker's DDR...what's worse is
that you were gullible enough to erm...*swallow* their tales :--p


Some of them are couples openly living together and
sharing their lifes, I have been to parties with fathers and mothers and
other family members present, true they don't *talk* about being gay but
it
is obvious to all present what the relationship between the guys is and
they
ask me questions that make clear that they know I am gay too.



Sounds like "life in the closet". Been there, done that, and honey bunch I
*ain't* havin' it. No thanks.


There are some nice gay bars in KL with doors open, no bell to ring,
people
moving in and out to outside food stalls where food and drinks are much
cheaper and much flirting going on etc.


I bet the boys are sweet and cheap too, eh?


Again, Gregory, it shows that you seldom leave your house and have become
a
bitter old man.


Huh? Now why on earth would I travel all the way to Malaysia to visit a gay
bar? I've several dozen within a mile or two of me (I live in "Boystown" on
Chicago's North Side). No need for me to "travel" for the sake of
nightlife.

--
Best
Greg

Sjoerd wrote:

"Gregory Morrow" schreef
in
bericht nk.net...
Do gays have a place in
Malaysian society?

Yes, they do. I have got a very good gay friend in Malaysia who introduced
me to his friends.


Yes Sjoerd I know all about these "friends" of yours. Like those Eastern
European "friends" of yours who told you a giant load of ******** about how
great life was in Ceaucescu's Romania and Honecker's DDR...what's worse is
that you were gullible enough to erm...*swallow* their tales :--p


Some of them are couples openly living together and
sharing their lifes, I have been to parties with fathers and mothers and
other family members present, true they don't *talk* about being gay but
it
is obvious to all present what the relationship between the guys is and
they
ask me questions that make clear that they know I am gay too.



Sounds like "life in the closet". Been there, done that, and honey bunch I
*ain't* havin' it. No thanks.


There are some nice gay bars in KL with doors open, no bell to ring,
people
moving in and out to outside food stalls where food and drinks are much
cheaper and much flirting going on etc.


I bet the boys are sweet and cheap too, eh?


Again, Gregory, it shows that you seldom leave your house and have become
a
bitter old man.


Huh? Now why on earth would I travel all the way to Malaysia to visit a gay
bar? I've several dozen within a mile or two of me (I live in "Boystown" on
Chicago's North Side). No need for me to "travel" for the sake of
nightlife.

--
Best
Greg

Pan wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 22:31:46 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


Pan wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:29:08 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:

I'm queer. Next question....

I'm a strong supporter of gay rights, but I won't boycott a country
because "sodomy" is illegal there. "Sodomy" was until recently illegal
in various states of my own country, the U.S.A., and I couldn't very
well boycott my own country! Do what you like, but don't expect a lot
of heterosexuals to boycott Malaysia out of sympathy for "sodomites."
Despite the high-profile persecution of Anwar with a humiliating fake
charge of "sodomy," I understand that gays who keep a low profile are
seldom prosecuted. Malaysia is not a country that stones people for
adultery and other consensual sexual offenses.


No they just do periodic "sweeps" and imprison them and cause them a lot
of
humiliation.

Sweeps for gay and transsexual prostitutes? What are you referring to?
Somehow, based on your previous attempts to describe a fictional
country you think is called Malaysia, I don't think you know what
you're talking about.


I dunno. Did you care to read the cites I provided?

Just because I've never been to St. Petersburg does not negate the fact the
place is home to a museum called The Hermitage and that most of the
inhabitants have Russian as their first tongue and that St. Petersburg is
somewhat north of Biloxi...


Oh my god - have you ever been to Malaysia ?


Nope. Why would I? I loathe Muslims
[snip]

So we know how seriously to take your remarks.


You think I'm not serious?

I don't take the remarks of bigots seriously, except as indications of
bigotry.


See below.


Under orthodox Islam, sodomy is considered an abominable perversion,
much as it has been so considered under Jewish and Christian laws for
most of their recorded histories. That doesn't mean that all Muslims
are the same, nor that they are hateful people. For you to loathe
bigotry against gays is praiseworthy; for you to loathe all Muslims is
bigotry. If some anti-gay Christians can "hate the sin and love the
sinner," you have no excuse for loathing all Muslims.


I don't have any "excuse" and I am not bigoted. I simply realize the danger
that Islam represents.


[snip]
Isn't it nice to live in a place such as the BRD that has strong
protections
for human rights and a strong rule of secular law?

Yeah. So stay home, because most other countries don't have such
strong protections and are places where you wouldn't want to live.



Nonsense. There are plenty of places that would fit my criteria: Canada,
many of the EU countries, Israel, New Zealand, Oz, Japan...

Suit yourself. You wouldn't have been able to countenance visiting
Britain in the 1960s.


Well I don't have a time machine - do you?

--
Best
Greg