Air France? Ptui!

When I went to the Air France office
to get credit for the trip we won't be
able to take because of my wife's sudden
illness, it took only a few seconds
before I realized I wasn't going to get
any further there than I had gotten
with AF's phone center. The reason is
that the guy there didn't have any more
authority to settle the issue than
did the phone people. (If there's anything
I've learned in life as a consumer,
it's not to waste time making a
case to somebody who has no authority
to negotiate.) In the end he
referred me to AF's customer service
bureacracy in Florida, to which I
can apply only in writing.

It was pointless to argue the actual
issues of the matter because he didn't
know what his company's rules were.
When I showed him a printout of the
Force Majeure rule, he said, well,
that was something that might be
on the Web site, but "they" -- this
is how he referred to his employer --
were known to make exceptions only
in the case of hospitalization, etc.
It was this "they" that tipped me
off right away that further discussion
would be academic.

Any company that values consumer
goodwill would by this time have
acted on the adage that "the customer
is always right." I mean, I was willing
to take time off from work and go
down there in person, for chrissake.

I'm going to pursue the matter; get
a doctor's note, write the letter,
even if ultimately all I'm left
with is just a good story about how
I found out why France is a second-rate
power.

The substantive issues -- the meaning of
force majeure, etc., I'll take up in a
thread shortly that I'll cross-post
from misc.legal.

--
Charles Packer
mailboxATcpacker.org
http://cpacker.org/whatnews

wrote in news:1140179951.484494.178440
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

When I went to the Air France office
to get credit for the trip we won't be
able to take because of my wife's sudden
illness, it took only a few seconds
before I realized I wasn't going to get
any further there than I had gotten
with AF's phone center. The reason is
that the guy there didn't have any more
authority to settle the issue than
did the phone people. (
Charles Packer
mailboxATcpacker.org
http://cpacker.org/whatnews


From what you hve written, and there may be more tothe story, your
position is no different than that of thousands of consumers dealing
with almost any airline. The best you can normally hope for is a penalty
and afuture credit.


--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

I agree. Replace Air France with any other airlines the answer will be
the same. There'll be a penalty with future credit. This has to be
printed somewhere in the purchase agreement.

wrote:
When I went to the Air France office
to get credit for the trip we won't be
able to take because of my wife's sudden
illness, it took only a few seconds
before I realized I wasn't going to get
any further there than I had gotten
with AF's phone center. The reason is
that the guy there didn't have any more
authority to settle the issue than
did the phone people.

In your mind, the only way to settle this dispute is if you win.


Any company that values consumer
goodwill would by this time have
acted on the adage that "the customer
is always right." I mean, I was willing
to take time off from work and go
down there in person, for chrissake.


No, the customer isn't always right.
If you want to buy a ticket that isn't as restrictive, pay more and buy
one. Alternatively, why do you think there is trip insurance?


The substantive issues -- the meaning of
force majeure, etc., I'll take up in a
thread shortly that I'll cross-post
from misc.legal.

A sick wife is probably not going to qualify as a "Force Majeure"
as people often get sick.


If you bought a ticket that is non refundable and non changeable, after
selecting the box at their website that says you have read the
restrictions, then it is not their fault you can't make a change or get
a refund.

At this point, I recommend submitting your request in a polite letter,
and not lay the blame with them or tell them how bad the other people
are. You need to be nice, and maybe you will get somewhere. If you don't
get the answer you want, then you are free to sue. It's your right.

I don't think you are going to get any closer to getting what you want
by expanding your audience to this newsgroup, but apparently you were
satisfied with the other online source you asked.

"mrtravel" digy.com...
wrote:
When I went to the Air France office
to get credit for the trip we won't be
able to take because of my wife's sudden
illness, it took only a few seconds
before I realized I wasn't going to get
any further there than I had gotten
with AF's phone center.

No, the customer isn't always right.
If you want to buy a ticket that isn't as restrictive, pay more and buy
one. Alternatively, why do you think there is trip insurance?


I'll have to agree with this point of view (and apparantly that of Air
France). The buyer bought knowingly a ticket with restrictions, restrictions
which are known to be inflexible. Then the buyer thought to try out his luck
and didn't buy a trip insurance just in case and now that there _is_ a
problem, expects the same rights and offers and anyone who _did_ buy
insurance or that did buy a much more expensive ticket with less
restrictions.

A sick wife is probably not going to qualify as a "Force Majeure"
as people often get sick.
At this point, I recommend submitting your request in a polite letter, and
not lay the blame with them or tell them how bad the other people are. You
need to be nice, and maybe you will get somewhere.


Just because the other airline didn't enforce the rules, doesn't make it an
obligation for Air France to do the same thing. These tickets with
restrictions are for people like the buyer. Getting a good price, skip on
the insurance and when it does go wrong... losing the money. A hard lesson
to be learned. Next time a) read the rules, b) buy trip insurance, or c) buy
a more expensive ticket, or d) do the same thing but accept you lost the
bet.
The buyer could ofcourse lower his desire to get credit just as the other
airline gave and accept any other offer.
Greetings,

- you can't have your cake and eat it too

Thur wrote:
to be learned. Next time a) read the rules, b) buy trip insurance, or c) buy


In the earlier thread I wrote about canceling
my air tickets, I did complain that the Air
France Web site was laughably evasive about
revealing the restrictions. That has turned out
to be irrelevant to the adventures recounted
in this thread, which resulted when I DID read
the rules. In the "Legal notices" section of
its Web site, it says under "Tickets 1. General
Provisions":

(c) Some Tickets are sold at discounted
fares, which may be partially or
completely non-refundable.
(d) If you have a Ticket, as described in
(c) above, which is completely
unused, and you are prevented from
traveling due to Force Majeure...
we will provide you with a credit...
subject to deduction of a reasonable
administration fee.

In the glossary preceding this section is the
definition of Force Majeu
unusual and unforeseen circumstances
beyond your control, the consequences
of which could not have been avoided
even if all due care had been exercised.

Does illness count as force majeure? If you do
a Web search on ["force majeure" illness],
you'll see that it does.

Will Air France honor its own rules? I don't
know at this point. When I called the rule to
the attention of the phone center, they put
me on hold for 10 minutes before saying they
couln't do anything, and that I had to go in
person to the local office. The supervisor
there hadn't a clue either, and referred me
to the write-in-only service center.

My main point in my OP, as some followups
did note, was how Air France holds the
customer at arm's length, like some bad
wine.

--
Charles Packer
mailboxATcpacker.org
http://cpacker.org/whatnews

I am afraid this is is misunderstanding. Clauses like "force majeure" or
"act of god" do not include illness or even death of passenger but only
incidents that are caused by third party action (strike, war etc.) or
natural disasters. This is a fact. You should contact a real lawyer, if
you have doubts. Although Google is a good search engine, it will not be
able to give you legal advice for your special situation.

In my long year experience as a travel agent I can tell you that
monetary damagages as a result of illness may be covered by the fare
rules of your transportation contract with Air France. If not, you could
have bought an insurance. You may tell us your exact fare name and I
will be happy to pull the rules from my CRS and tell it to you.

There is a pretty good definition of force majeure at
http://www.library.yale.edu/~llicense/forcegen.shtml


Regards
Matthias

wrote:
Thur wrote:
to be learned. Next time a) read the rules, b) buy trip insurance, or c) buy


In the earlier thread I wrote about canceling
my air tickets, I did complain that the Air
France Web site was laughably evasive about
revealing the restrictions. That has turned out
to be irrelevant to the adventures recounted
in this thread, which resulted when I DID read
the rules. In the "Legal notices" section of
its Web site, it says under "Tickets 1. General
Provisions":

(c) Some Tickets are sold at discounted
fares, which may be partially or
completely non-refundable.
(d) If you have a Ticket, as described in
(c) above, which is completely
unused, and you are prevented from
traveling due to Force Majeure...
we will provide you with a credit...
subject to deduction of a reasonable
administration fee.

In the glossary preceding this section is the
definition of Force Majeu
unusual and unforeseen circumstances
beyond your control, the consequences
of which could not have been avoided
even if all due care had been exercised.

Does illness count as force majeure? If you do
a Web search on ["force majeure" illness],
you'll see that it does.

Will Air France honor its own rules? I don't
know at this point. When I called the rule to
the attention of the phone center, they put
me on hold for 10 minutes before saying they
couln't do anything, and that I had to go in
person to the local office. The supervisor
there hadn't a clue either, and referred me
to the write-in-only service center.

My main point in my OP, as some followups
did note, was how Air France holds the
customer at arm's length, like some bad
wine.

--
Charles Packer
mailboxATcpacker.org
http://cpacker.org/whatnews

Matthias van Henk wrote:
I am afraid this is is misunderstanding. Clauses like "force majeure" or
"act of god" do not include illness or even death of passenger but only
incidents that are caused by third party action (strike, war etc.) or
natural disasters. This is a fact. You should contact a real lawyer, if
you have doubts. Although Google is a good search engine, it will not be
able to give you legal advice for your special situation.

In my long year experience as a travel agent I can tell you that
monetary damagages as a result of illness may be covered by the fare
rules of your transportation contract with Air France. If not, you could
have bought an insurance. You may tell us your exact fare name and I
will be happy to pull the rules from my CRS and tell it to you.

There is a pretty good definition of force majeure at
http://www.library.yale.edu/~llicense/forcegen.shtml

This is interesting, and on the legal particulars,
tentatively I stand corrected. On the matter of
travel insurance, I considered buying a policy,
fully aware that I was advancing several thousand
dollars not only for air tickets but also for a
deposit to a tour group for an trip that was
much farther in the future than I typically plan
vacations. However, I decided that insurance would
be worth its high premium -- about 10 percent of
the total cost of the fares -- ONLY if I required
refunds if the trip had to be cancelled. The
alternative to receiving a refund, of course, is
to accept credit for future services, minus
the cost of reasonable administrative fees.
I reasoned that no reputable business would
refuse to negotiate this. With more than a month
to go before the start of the trip, United
Air and the tour operator DID negotiate it;
instantly, by phone. (...and I didn't have to
check for NONEGOT on my receipts, haha.)

So, while we'll be missing out on the solar
eclipse in Africa on March 29, at least we have
the Alaskan aurora to look forward to in late
September. But will we be taking our Thanksgiving
dinner in Paris? I don't know that Air France
won't negotiate; I just know that its institutional
structure is making it impossible to find out.

--
Charles Packer
mailboxATcpacker.org
http://cpacker.org/whatnews

wrote:

In the earlier thread I wrote about canceling
my air tickets, I did complain that the Air
France Web site was laughably evasive about
revealing the restrictions. That has turned out
to be irrelevant to the adventures recounted
in this thread, which resulted when I DID read
the rules. In the "Legal notices" section of
its Web site, it says under "Tickets 1. General
Provisions":

(c) Some Tickets are sold at discounted
fares, which may be partially or
completely non-refundable.

You left off the rest of that clause. Did you do that for a reason?
Here is the complete clause, which has a more complete description, and
notification about the need to obtain flight cancellation insurance:

(c) Some Tickets are sold at discounted fares,
which may be partially or completely non-refundable.
You should choose the fare best suited to your needs.
You may also wish to ensure that you have appropriate
insurance to cover instances where you have to cancel
your Ticket.

Such insurance is specifically aimed at protecting you in case of
illness, incapacitation, or death.

In the glossary preceding this section is the
definition of Force Majeu
unusual and unforeseen circumstances
beyond your control, the consequences
of which could not have been avoided
even if all due care had been exercised.

Does illness count as force majeure? If you do
a Web search on ["force majeure" illness],
you'll see that it does.

You will find that legally, it does not. Force Majeure provisions are
typically geared toward events that a careful person could not foresee,
such as riot, insurrection, political upheaval, catastrophic fires,
earthquakes, or inability to provide a service because of actions of a
third party, etc. Illness is considered to be something that people
have to insure themselves against, hence the ready availablility of
flight cancellation insurance.

My main point in my OP, as some followups
did note, was how Air France holds the
customer at arm's length, like some bad
wine.

You will get the same treatment by all the airlines. You purchased a
low-cost, non-refundable ticket, and now are asking for a refund.

The fact that you have been referred to the refund department is not
indicative of corporate aloofness, but an example of getting the
department involved that can give a definitive answer to a complicated
question. The same thing happens any time there is an issue that is
more complex than the training provided to the front-line employees.
They are instructed to direct the problem to the appropriate department
for handling.

James Robinson wrote:
wrote:

In the glossary preceding this section is the
definition of Force Majeu
unusual and unforeseen circumstances
beyond your control, the consequences
of which could not have been avoided
even if all due care had been exercised.

Does illness count as force majeure? If you do
a Web search on ["force majeure" illness],
you'll see that it does.

You will find that legally, it does not. Force Majeure provisions are
typically geared toward events that a careful person could not foresee,
such as riot, insurrection, political upheaval, catastrophic fires,
earthquakes, or inability to provide a service because of actions of a
third party, etc. Illness is considered to be something that people
have to insure themselves against, hence the ready availablility of
flight cancellation insurance.

Further the force majeure clause in the ticket basically says that if
the airline cancels flights because it has declared force majeure the
passenger is protected. It does not give the passenger the right to
declare force majeure because taking the flight wasn't convenient for
him, even for health reasons.

My main point in my OP, as some followups
did note, was how Air France holds the
customer at arm's length, like some bad
wine.

You will get the same treatment by all the airlines. You purchased a
low-cost, non-refundable ticket, and now are asking for a refund.

Exactly. One of the calculations in the low cost tickets is the fact
that some people will buy the ticket then not use them. This helps
defray the total cost. If the tickets were refundable they would, by
necessity, be higher priced.

What we have here is someone not willing to accept responsibility for
his own decisions. I'm not particularly a fan of Air France. ('ve been
on over 100 Air France flights (I'm including UTA in that, about half
the total) and I don't recall ever getting what I'd call great service
in the air. Their ground staff in Paris was OK. Their staff in San
Francisco was extremely helpful in many cases.) But what's right is
right and the original poster seems way out of line with his complaint.