Istanbul and Gallipoli

On 5 Jun, 15:10, Surreyman wrote:
On 5 Jun, 10:51, Spiney Norman wrote:



On 5 Jun, 11:38, Surreyman wrote:

On 4 Jun, 15:07, Norman Spiney wrote:

On 4 Jun, 15:59, Surreyman wrote:

On 4 Jun, 11:22, Norman Spiney wrote:

On 4 Jun, 12:05, grusl wrote:

On Jun 4, 2:37 pm, Norman Spiney wrote:

On 4 Jun, 11:22, "grusl" wrote:

I'm off to Istanbul for a few days this month. First visit to Turkey and
basically a spur-of-the-moment idea while my wife is visiting her mother.

I'm flying BLR-IST with GF (two four-hour hops with a two hour layover in
BAH and, being GF, will no doubt be late), which cost INR40,000 - about
USD1000 - and staying at the Turing Ayasofya Konaklari in Sogukçesme sokagi
in the Sultanahmet district at EUR120 per night. (No doubt those diacritics
won't come out).

In the middle of the stay I'm planning for an overnight trip to Gallipoli
via Canakkale. The hotel says it does group tours, which I don't especially
mind in an unfamiliar country (and especially if there are knowledgable
veterans on the tour ... not from the original 1915 conflict of course), but
if anyone knows a more interesting way to see the battlefield sites and
memorials I'm listening. I'm OK with bus, train or car options.

I have the LP guide to Istanbul and I'm basically interested in the city's
history, architecture, art, museums, walking, and eating and drinking
(restaurant and raki bar recommendations welcome; I'm completely
omnivorous). I'm not a shopper. I take photos but not well.. My brief
research into Canakkale gives the general impression it's a swinging
university town but I may have to adjust that for local sentiments.

Cheers,

George W Russell

Bangalore

all that time and expense just to see some graves ?!- Hide quoted text -

Yes, I suppose Westminster Abbey falls into the same category.

The time is negligible - overnight - and I don't know about the cost
yet.

Cheers,
George W Russell
Bangalore

Westminster Abbey is a large historic building in the centre of
London....
Gallipoli is overrated, Pergammon / Goreme / Pamukkale are much more
interesting- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That depends on one's interests.
Gallipoli is fascinating assuming you're not just there for the
scenery.
Goreme is terrific for the scenery of course.
Pergamon is well beaten, in my view, by several other archeological
sites you haven't even mentioned.
And don't forget Troy while at Gallipoli.
Pamukkale was one of my disappointments, if anything.
Horses for courses.

Surreyman
Pergamon is well beaten, in my view,

Pergamon was great because it was devoid of tourists.

by several other archeological sites you haven't even mentioned.

exactly, theres a **** load of stuff better than Gallipoli

what was wrong with Pamukkale ?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

As I said, simply, "horses for courses".
For instance, Priene is probably my favourite archeo site, but others
might not agree.
And some of the caravanserai in the east are amongst the most
evocative sites possible.
The attractions of Gallipoli have nothing to do with scenery
whatsoever, of course.
You might prefer Bodrum. But, wherever, that's your privilege.

Surreyman

Bodrum was good for drinking and shagging IIRC but otherwise not much
to see.
I repeat, what was wrong with Pamukkale ?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

When I was last there, at least, all but a few basins were drained
and, in a fit of eco madness (later stopped) officials insisted that
we all had to walk over the dry basins in bare feet - bloody painful!
Crowded out with tourists (no, I wasn't really one, I was staying at
length nearby). Vaguely interesting geomorphologically, but Hierapolis
above, and the remainder of the Menderes valley, is far more
intersting if in the area.
But, as I keep saying, horses for courses.

Surreyman

I was there in the summer of 1994 and bare feet were expected, they
said shoes were eroding the site.
There were plenty of tourists but nothing on the scale of Efes.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/zzzzz/230744003/

On Jun 5, 2:08*am, "Runge11" wrote:
What an interesting, void life !
Please no more details !!!



At least I travel you pathetic French stereotype

On Jun 5, 12:03*am, Spiney Norman wrote:
On 4 Jun, 20:26, "grusl" wrote:





"Sarah Banick" wrote in message

...

"
In the middle of the stay I'm planning for an overnight trip to
Gallipoli
via Canakkale. The hotel says it does group tours, which I don't
especially mind in an unfamiliar country (and especially if there are
knowledgable veterans on the tour ... not from the original 1915 conflict
of course), but if anyone knows a more interesting way to see the
battlefield sites and memorials I'm listening. I'm OK with bus, train or
car options.

My brief
research into Canakkale gives the general impression it's a swinging
university town but I may have to adjust that for local sentiments.

Cheers,

George W Russell

Bangalore

Hey George --

It's been more than 15 years for me, but I don't remember much of anything
impressive about Canakkale, except for its location near Gallipoli and
Troy. Possibly because I got really sick there.

But if you're into history, it's fascinating just to look out on the
Dardenelles and think about the many fleets that tried to manipulate the
Straits and reach Istanbul. I was really touched at Gallipoli, seeing how
little the British, et al, knew of the geography and how they walked into
a slaughter. There's a moving quote from Ataturk (from much later),
(googling)....here it is:

"Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives..you are now
lying in the soil of a friendly country.Therefore rest in peace.There is
no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie
side by side here in this country of ours.You the mothers who sent their
sons from far away countries wipe away your tears.Your sons are now living
in our bosom and are in peace. Having lost their lives on this land they
have become our sons as well."

I guess it just depends on how you look at battlefields. I see them as
terrible human errors that we have to learn from. If enough people see how
stupid and needless this crap is, maybe they'll make it stop.

Anyway, sorry I got going there. Don't forget Troy if you have enough
time. It's a short ride from Canakkale. Ephesus is more impressive, but
again, it's fun to dream of the history that took place at your feet.

Thanks for the info, Sarah. I'm told Troy is almost invisible but will check
it out. It's unfortunate but inevitable that people (i.e. tedious Belgian)
have seized on the Gallipoli issue. It's no more significant than say,
Yorktown or Bull Run is to Americans, but as an Aussie I want to able to say
I've seen it. We've all been disappointed by the travel icons of our youth
... anyway as I said it's Istanbul I'm looking forward to. If Canakkale
turns out not to be another Ann Arbor, no problem.

Cheers,
George W Russell
Bangalore

You asked us for help, I told you it was boring, and now you're upset.
Jeesh, what a stuck up sticky beak

Your opinion is noted. I've been accused of lots of things but "stuck
up" is a first.

Cheers,
George W Russell
Bangalore

On 5 Jun, 07:23, "grusl" wrote:
"Jack Campin - bogus address" wrote in ...

I think everyone is reading Viviane's meaning incorrectly. I think she's
trying to say, it's hard to understand the effect the first WW had on
Aussies unless you're an Aussie.

In that case she's wrong. None of them lived through it and they're
feeling what they've been told to feel about it. The experience of
participating in a vicarious orgy of faked-up grief over hyped-up
martyrs you never knew or thought of caring about until Rupert Murdoch
told you about them is common to the whole developed media-brainwashed
world. The UK's version of it was the death of Diana Spencer.

Actually, Rupert's dad told us about Gallipoli!

It's a bit like how Agincourt is hyped up, which was a rare victory amid a
century-long orgy of defeat and expulsion. Nonetheless, Gallipoli will be
interesting to see as the place (or interesting to say I've been to the
place) from where the myths and legends sprang.

I'm taking a trip, not making a political statement.

Cheers,
George W Russell
Bangalore

or Waterloo, but they did manage to build the 'Butte du Lion' to break
up the monotony of farmer's fields

I think everyone is reading Viviane's meaning incorrectly. I think she's
trying to say, it's hard to understand the effect the first WW had on
Aussies unless you're an Aussie.

In that case she's wrong. None of them lived through it and they're
feeling what they've been told to feel about it. The experience of
participating in a vicarious orgy of faked-up grief over hyped-up
martyrs you never knew or thought of caring about until Rupert Murdoch
told you about them is common to the whole developed media-brainwashed
world. The UK's version of it was the death of Diana Spencer.

==== j a c k at c a m p i n . m e . u k === http://www.campin.me.uk
====
Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739
557
CD-ROMs and free stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic
fonts


Hey, I live in the Southern US, where folks still drive around in pickup
trucks with bumperstickers that say, "Forget? Hell!" in reference to a war
that ended in 1865.

I don't know about the Rupert Murdoch thing (in this instance). But every
country has its own memories, traditions, and sometimes plain old myths that
serve as cultural touchstones for the national experience. We know the
facts. If this is important to Aussies and Kiwis, so be it.

Nothing new about media-hype affecting politics and history. See the Spanish
American war, 1898.

On 6 Jun, 19:19, "Sarah Banick" wrote:
I think everyone is reading Viviane's meaning incorrectly. I think she's
trying to say, it's hard to understand the effect the first WW had on
Aussies unless you're an Aussie.

In that case she's wrong. None of them lived through it and they're
feeling what they've been told to feel about it. The experience of
participating in a vicarious orgy of faked-up grief over hyped-up
martyrs you never knew or thought of caring about until Rupert Murdoch
told you about them is common to the whole developed media-brainwashed
world. The UK's version of it was the death of Diana Spencer.

==== j a c k at c a m p i n . m e . u k === http://www.campin.me.uk
====
Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739
557
CD-ROMs and free stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic
fonts

Hey, I live in the Southern US, where folks still drive around in pickup
trucks with bumperstickers that say, "Forget? Hell!" in reference to a war
that ended in 1865.

I don't know about the Rupert Murdoch thing (in this instance). But every
country has its own memories, traditions, and sometimes plain old myths that
serve as cultural touchstones for the national experience. We know the
facts. If this is important to Aussies and Kiwis, so be it.

Nothing new about media-hype affecting politics and history. See the Spanish
American war, 1898.

indeed there are many sad *******s on the planet....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Boyne

On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:19:08 -0400, "Sarah Banick"
wrote:


I think everyone is reading Viviane's meaning incorrectly. I think she's
trying to say, it's hard to understand the effect the first WW had on
Aussies unless you're an Aussie.

In that case she's wrong. None of them lived through it and they're
feeling what they've been told to feel about it. The experience of
participating in a vicarious orgy of faked-up grief over hyped-up
martyrs you never knew or thought of caring about until Rupert Murdoch
told you about them is common to the whole developed media-brainwashed
world. The UK's version of it was the death of Diana Spencer.

==== j a c k at c a m p i n . m e . u k === http://www.campin.me.uk
====
Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739
557
CD-ROMs and free stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic
fonts


Hey, I live in the Southern US, where folks still drive around in pickup
trucks with bumperstickers that say, "Forget? Hell!" in reference to a war
that ended in 1865.


You might find this photo I took in 2003 interesting. Click
on the picture and then on "all sizes" to get a pic big
enough to read the signs.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/alan_s/...7604919289274/


Cheers, Alan, Australia
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alan_s/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com
Latest: Indira Gandhi Airport, Delhi

You may think Gallipoli is boring. It probably is for a lot of people. Just
a bit of scrub where people died.

For some people, however, Gallipoli is a very sacred site. For Australians
(in particular) and New Zealanders, it is considered in many ways as the
"birthplace" of our nation. It is intimately bound into our idea of what it
means to be an Australian. The annual anniversary of the invasion is a
public holiday, tens of thousands get up at dawn to line the streets at dawn
to "celebrate".

This is an unusual and very healthy thing to celebrate. We comprehensively
lost this battle with tens of thousands killed. It was a complete disaster.
As popular culture would have it, this was a British idea that wantonly
threw away Australian lives. It marked the point where Australia realised
that its interests were not the same as the Brits interest, and hence marked
the real start of our independence from Britian as a separate and
independent Nation (which legally had occurred 14 years before, on
1/1/1901).

I am told it is very common for Australian's to break down and cry when they
visit Gallipoli. Unless you are an Australian or Kiwi, you can have no idea
of this site's importance to our countries. Brits understand some of this.

Visitting Gallipoli is a bit like visitting US Civil War battlefields.
Unless you are an American, these are just corn fields. Your reaction to
these sites is very, very heavily dependent upon your national and cultural
roots.

On 7 Jun, 04:51, "Peter Webb"
wrote:
You may think Gallipoli is boring. It probably is for a lot of people. Just
a bit of scrub where people died.

For some people, however, Gallipoli is a very sacred site. For Australians
(in particular) and New Zealanders, it is considered in many ways as the
"birthplace" of our nation. It is intimately bound into our idea of what it
means to be an Australian. The annual anniversary of the invasion is a
public holiday, tens of thousands get up at dawn to line the streets at dawn
to "celebrate".

This is an unusual and very healthy thing to celebrate. We comprehensively
lost this battle with tens of thousands killed. It was a complete disaster.
As popular culture would have it, this was a British idea that wantonly
threw away Australian lives. It marked the point where Australia realised
that its interests were not the same as the Brits interest, and hence marked
the real start of our independence from Britian as a separate and
independent Nation (which legally had occurred 14 years before, on
1/1/1901).

I am told it is very common for Australian's to break down and cry when they
visit Gallipoli. Unless you are an Australian or Kiwi, you can have no idea
of this site's importance to our countries. Brits understand some of this.

Visitting Gallipoli is a bit like visitting US Civil War battlefields.
Unless you are an American, these are just corn fields. Your reaction to
these sites is very, very heavily dependent upon your national and cultural
roots.

Interesting, my grandad and his pals fought just down the road from
here, yet I see it as just another waste of time and effort, and leave
it at that.
Do you feel the same way about the treatment of Aborigines and Maoris ?

On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:51:17 +1000, "Peter Webb"
wrote:

You may think Gallipoli is boring. It probably is for a lot of people. Just
a bit of scrub where people died.

For some people, however, Gallipoli is a very sacred site. For Australians
(in particular) and New Zealanders, it is considered in many ways as the
"birthplace" of our nation. It is intimately bound into our idea of what it
means to be an Australian. The annual anniversary of the invasion is a
public holiday, tens of thousands get up at dawn to line the streets at dawn
to "celebrate".

This is an unusual and very healthy thing to celebrate. We comprehensively
lost this battle with tens of thousands killed. It was a complete disaster.
As popular culture would have it, this was a British idea that wantonly
threw away Australian lives. It marked the point where Australia realised
that its interests were not the same as the Brits interest, and hence marked
the real start of our independence from Britian as a separate and
independent Nation (which legally had occurred 14 years before, on
1/1/1901).

I am told it is very common for Australian's to break down and cry when they
visit Gallipoli. Unless you are an Australian or Kiwi, you can have no idea
of this site's importance to our countries. Brits understand some of this.

Visitting Gallipoli is a bit like visitting US Civil War battlefields.
Unless you are an American, these are just corn fields. Your reaction to
these sites is very, very heavily dependent upon your national and cultural
roots.


Thank you.

Cheers, Alan, Australia
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alan_s/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com
Latest: Indira Gandhi Airport, Delhi