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Trip Report - Singapore / Malaysia



 
 
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  #21  
Old September 7th, 2004, 10:23 PM
Gregory Morrow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Alfred Molon wrote:

flyinyereye wrote:

I once saw a woman in KL in full black burka, with a pink helium balloon

on
a string, whilst her husband was casually dressed in jeans, t-shirt and
thongs (flip flops). The scene just seemed so wrong.


I think these women choose freely to dress like that - nobody is forcing
them.



Nonsense. They are forced by their families and husbands and societal laws
to dress like that. If they don't they'll be shunned - or *worse*, e.g.
stonings and even death.

--
Best
Greg



  #22  
Old September 7th, 2004, 10:29 PM
Gregory Morrow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Alfred Molon wrote:


Gregory Morrow wrote:

Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic

country
should be a red flag to you. What is the legal status of the women you

saw,
their station in life?


Excellent - women are well integrated in society and most of them have a
job.



As long as the rule of Shariah is followed women will *always* be second -
class citizens.


Did you see any Jews?


There are no Jews in Malaysia. Jews never migrated there (in any case
not in significant numbers).

Do gays have a place in Malaysian society?


No. Is this a problem for you ?



I'm queer. Next question....


Places like Dubai and Kuala Lumpur might put on a very
tempting face but anyone who values human rights surely would not choose

to
live there permanently, especially if you are, say, a woman or Jewish or
homosexual. Frankly I would not dig being treated like chattel or a

pariah
or being jailed or worse for my sexual orientation.

It's like visiting Berlin during the 1936 Olympics and saying "Wow!

These
Germans have got a good thing going! They are friendly and nice and so
well - organised...Berlin is really beautiful and modern and we really

did
not see any of that overt anti - semitism or anything political like
that..must just be rumours!.".


Oh my god - have you ever been to Malaysia ?



Nope. Why would I? I loathe Muslims and in any case the climate would be
generally too hot and humid for me.


"When Abdullah Badawi took over from Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad in
October 2003, Malaysia's first change in leadership in more than two
decades, he sounded themes of democracy, good governance, and human

rights
in his inauguration speech. The new administration, however, has yet to

take
significant steps toward dismantling Malaysia's legal framework of
repression. Prominent human rights concerns in Malaysia include arbitrary
detention of alleged militants under the Internal Security Act (ISA);

severe
restrictions on media freedom; constraints on judicial independence; and
abuses against refugees and migrants.


Actually Badawi just freed Anwar.

snip

Malaysian women who are married to non-Malaysian men and give birth to
children outside of Malaysia cannot confer citizenship to their children,
these children are considered foreigners, into Malaysia. When a child is
born outside Malaysia, the child is not conferred citizenship by

operation
of the law unless the father is a Malaysian citizen.5 A child whose

mother
is a Malaysian citizen does not share the same privilege. The father must

be
a Malaysian citizen in order for the child to be conferred citizenship in
Malaysia.


I know. I'm the father of a beautiful four months old baby and my wife
is Malaysian. Our daughter was born here in Germany and won't get a
Malaysian passport. So what ? We'll survive ;-)



Isn't it nice to live in a place such as the BRD that has strong protections
for human rights and a strong rule of secular law?

--
Best
Greg



  #23  
Old September 7th, 2004, 10:35 PM
Gregory Morrow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Pan wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 18:28:34 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


mag3 wrote:

Islam Yes, one does see the Islamic orientation of this country but

it's
not "in your face" at all.
in There is very little Arabic script as the national language is

"Bahasa
Malaysia" (which uses
Malays. Romanized alphabet) and not Arabic.



Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic

country
should be a red flag to you.


I disagree. Have you ever been there?



No.


Wonderful people.



That's on a personal level. I am talking about a societal level.


What is the legal status of the women you saw,
their station in life?


Malay women, especially in East Coast states ruled now or until
recently by PAS, have much higher status than they did in the 1970s.
Lots of them own their own businesses. Malaysia is not Saudi Arabia.
Malay women are frequently seen driving cars and motorcycles by
themselves and sell to both men and women.



Wow! Such progress!


Did you see any Jews?


There never was a big local Jewish community. There used to be one
congregation in Penang, and already in the 70s, there were too few of
them to have services except when supplemented by Jewish tourists and
businessmen for the High Holy Days. It's true that the word "Jew" has
often been used as an insult in Malaysian political discourse, but my
impression is that the departure of Malaysian Jews had much more to do
with economics than anything else. I don't believe the very small
Jewish community was persecuted.

If my experience last summer is anything to judge by, Jewish tourists
are welcome in Malaysia, but you probably wouldn't recognize them
because they wouldn't be Orthodox Jews wearing kipot. Plenty of halal
but no certified kosher food is to be found in Malaysia.

Do gays have a place in
Malaysian society?


Yes, if they're quiet about it. That was true in various Western
countries a few decades ago.

Places like Dubai and Kuala Lumpur might put on a very
tempting face but anyone who values human rights surely would not choose

to
live there permanently, especially if you are, say, a woman or Jewish or
homosexual.


Living there permanently - is that an issue in this thread? I sure as
heck wouldn't want to live in Beijing permanently but had a wonderful
time visiting there for 9 days this August.

Frankly I would not dig being treated like chattel or a pariah
or being jailed or worse for my sexual orientation.


Women are _NOT_ chattel in Malaysia and do have rights! But yes, if
you're gay, you probably don't want to move to Malaysia.

It's like visiting Berlin during the 1936 Olympics and saying "Wow!

These
Germans have got a good thing going! They are friendly and nice and so
well - organised...Berlin is really beautiful and modern and we really

did
not see any of that overt anti - semitism or anything political like
that..must just be rumours!.".

[snip]

Malaysia in 2004 is very far from Nazi Germany!



*Any* nation that follows the rules of Islam is a danger or a potential
danger to world stability.. Islam has proven to be a far greater menace to
the world than National Socialism ever was.

--
Best
Greg





  #24  
Old September 7th, 2004, 10:35 PM
Gregory Morrow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Pan wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 18:28:34 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


mag3 wrote:

Islam Yes, one does see the Islamic orientation of this country but

it's
not "in your face" at all.
in There is very little Arabic script as the national language is

"Bahasa
Malaysia" (which uses
Malays. Romanized alphabet) and not Arabic.



Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic

country
should be a red flag to you.


I disagree. Have you ever been there?



No.


Wonderful people.



That's on a personal level. I am talking about a societal level.


What is the legal status of the women you saw,
their station in life?


Malay women, especially in East Coast states ruled now or until
recently by PAS, have much higher status than they did in the 1970s.
Lots of them own their own businesses. Malaysia is not Saudi Arabia.
Malay women are frequently seen driving cars and motorcycles by
themselves and sell to both men and women.



Wow! Such progress!


Did you see any Jews?


There never was a big local Jewish community. There used to be one
congregation in Penang, and already in the 70s, there were too few of
them to have services except when supplemented by Jewish tourists and
businessmen for the High Holy Days. It's true that the word "Jew" has
often been used as an insult in Malaysian political discourse, but my
impression is that the departure of Malaysian Jews had much more to do
with economics than anything else. I don't believe the very small
Jewish community was persecuted.

If my experience last summer is anything to judge by, Jewish tourists
are welcome in Malaysia, but you probably wouldn't recognize them
because they wouldn't be Orthodox Jews wearing kipot. Plenty of halal
but no certified kosher food is to be found in Malaysia.

Do gays have a place in
Malaysian society?


Yes, if they're quiet about it. That was true in various Western
countries a few decades ago.

Places like Dubai and Kuala Lumpur might put on a very
tempting face but anyone who values human rights surely would not choose

to
live there permanently, especially if you are, say, a woman or Jewish or
homosexual.


Living there permanently - is that an issue in this thread? I sure as
heck wouldn't want to live in Beijing permanently but had a wonderful
time visiting there for 9 days this August.

Frankly I would not dig being treated like chattel or a pariah
or being jailed or worse for my sexual orientation.


Women are _NOT_ chattel in Malaysia and do have rights! But yes, if
you're gay, you probably don't want to move to Malaysia.

It's like visiting Berlin during the 1936 Olympics and saying "Wow!

These
Germans have got a good thing going! They are friendly and nice and so
well - organised...Berlin is really beautiful and modern and we really

did
not see any of that overt anti - semitism or anything political like
that..must just be rumours!.".

[snip]

Malaysia in 2004 is very far from Nazi Germany!



*Any* nation that follows the rules of Islam is a danger or a potential
danger to world stability.. Islam has proven to be a far greater menace to
the world than National Socialism ever was.

--
Best
Greg





  #25  
Old September 7th, 2004, 11:02 PM
Pan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:23:47 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


Alfred Molon wrote:

flyinyereye wrote:

I once saw a woman in KL in full black burka, with a pink helium balloon

on
a string, whilst her husband was casually dressed in jeans, t-shirt and
thongs (flip flops). The scene just seemed so wrong.


I think these women choose freely to dress like that - nobody is forcing
them.



Nonsense. They are forced by their families and husbands and societal laws
to dress like that. If they don't they'll be shunned - or *worse*, e.g.
stonings and even death.


Can you name the last time a Malaysian was stoned? You're a
bull****ter, which is worse than an ignoramus. Are we back to the
"monolithic Communists," only substituting "Muslims" for "Communists"?
Remember what they say about fools speaking.

Michael

If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted.
  #26  
Old September 7th, 2004, 11:09 PM
Pan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:29:08 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


Alfred Molon wrote:


Gregory Morrow wrote:

Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic

country
should be a red flag to you. What is the legal status of the women you

saw,
their station in life?


Excellent - women are well integrated in society and most of them have a
job.



As long as the rule of Shariah is followed women will *always* be second -
class citizens.


There are some problems. No-one claimed that Malaysia is perfect. But
the position of women is not that low in Malaysia and has been rising.

Did you see any Jews?


There are no Jews in Malaysia. Jews never migrated there (in any case
not in significant numbers).

Do gays have a place in Malaysian society?


No. Is this a problem for you ?



I'm queer. Next question....


I'm a strong supporter of gay rights, but I won't boycott a country
because "sodomy" is illegal there. "Sodomy" was until recently illegal
in various states of my own country, the U.S.A., and I couldn't very
well boycott my own country! Do what you like, but don't expect a lot
of heterosexuals to boycott Malaysia out of sympathy for "sodomites."
Despite the high-profile persecution of Anwar with a humiliating fake
charge of "sodomy," I understand that gays who keep a low profile are
seldom prosecuted. Malaysia is not a country that stones people for
adultery and other consensual sexual offenses.

Oh my god - have you ever been to Malaysia ?



Nope. Why would I? I loathe Muslims

[snip]

So we know how seriously to take your remarks.

[snip]
Isn't it nice to live in a place such as the BRD that has strong protections
for human rights and a strong rule of secular law?


Yeah. So stay home, because most other countries don't have such
strong protections and are places where you wouldn't want to live.

Michael

If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted.
  #27  
Old September 7th, 2004, 11:09 PM
Pan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:29:08 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


Alfred Molon wrote:


Gregory Morrow wrote:

Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic

country
should be a red flag to you. What is the legal status of the women you

saw,
their station in life?


Excellent - women are well integrated in society and most of them have a
job.



As long as the rule of Shariah is followed women will *always* be second -
class citizens.


There are some problems. No-one claimed that Malaysia is perfect. But
the position of women is not that low in Malaysia and has been rising.

Did you see any Jews?


There are no Jews in Malaysia. Jews never migrated there (in any case
not in significant numbers).

Do gays have a place in Malaysian society?


No. Is this a problem for you ?



I'm queer. Next question....


I'm a strong supporter of gay rights, but I won't boycott a country
because "sodomy" is illegal there. "Sodomy" was until recently illegal
in various states of my own country, the U.S.A., and I couldn't very
well boycott my own country! Do what you like, but don't expect a lot
of heterosexuals to boycott Malaysia out of sympathy for "sodomites."
Despite the high-profile persecution of Anwar with a humiliating fake
charge of "sodomy," I understand that gays who keep a low profile are
seldom prosecuted. Malaysia is not a country that stones people for
adultery and other consensual sexual offenses.

Oh my god - have you ever been to Malaysia ?



Nope. Why would I? I loathe Muslims

[snip]

So we know how seriously to take your remarks.

[snip]
Isn't it nice to live in a place such as the BRD that has strong protections
for human rights and a strong rule of secular law?


Yeah. So stay home, because most other countries don't have such
strong protections and are places where you wouldn't want to live.

Michael

If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted.
  #28  
Old September 7th, 2004, 11:15 PM
Pan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:35:13 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


Pan wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 18:28:34 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


mag3 wrote:

Islam Yes, one does see the Islamic orientation of this country but

it's
not "in your face" at all.
in There is very little Arabic script as the national language is

"Bahasa
Malaysia" (which uses
Malays. Romanized alphabet) and not Arabic.


Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic

country
should be a red flag to you.


I disagree. Have you ever been there?



No.


Wonderful people.



That's on a personal level. I am talking about a societal level.


When you visit a country, do you deal with societies or people? I deal
with people.

What is the legal status of the women you saw,
their station in life?


Malay women, especially in East Coast states ruled now or until
recently by PAS, have much higher status than they did in the 1970s.
Lots of them own their own businesses. Malaysia is not Saudi Arabia.
Malay women are frequently seen driving cars and motorcycles by
themselves and sell to both men and women.



Wow! Such progress!


What exactly do you want to see? Women professors? They've got 'em.
Women judges? They've got 'em. Women cabinet ministers? They've got
'em. You are an absolute ignoramus about Malaysia. I know from the
inside what things were like in a conservative East Coast village in
the mid 1970s and what they're like now.

[snip]
*Any* nation that follows the rules of Islam is a danger or a potential
danger to world stability.. Islam has proven to be a far greater menace to
the world than National Socialism ever was.


As a Jew, I condemn your offensive remarks. If the Muslims had taken
over Europe, it seems likely that Jewish lives would have been better
and more secure than they were under hundreds of years of Christian
oppression and period pogroms following the Reconquista. If the Nazis
had taken over the world, I would never have been born.

The Nazis weren't too good to gays, either, in case you forgot about
that.

Michael

If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted.
  #29  
Old September 7th, 2004, 11:15 PM
Pan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:35:13 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


Pan wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 18:28:34 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


mag3 wrote:

Islam Yes, one does see the Islamic orientation of this country but

it's
not "in your face" at all.
in There is very little Arabic script as the national language is

"Bahasa
Malaysia" (which uses
Malays. Romanized alphabet) and not Arabic.


Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic

country
should be a red flag to you.


I disagree. Have you ever been there?



No.


Wonderful people.



That's on a personal level. I am talking about a societal level.


When you visit a country, do you deal with societies or people? I deal
with people.

What is the legal status of the women you saw,
their station in life?


Malay women, especially in East Coast states ruled now or until
recently by PAS, have much higher status than they did in the 1970s.
Lots of them own their own businesses. Malaysia is not Saudi Arabia.
Malay women are frequently seen driving cars and motorcycles by
themselves and sell to both men and women.



Wow! Such progress!


What exactly do you want to see? Women professors? They've got 'em.
Women judges? They've got 'em. Women cabinet ministers? They've got
'em. You are an absolute ignoramus about Malaysia. I know from the
inside what things were like in a conservative East Coast village in
the mid 1970s and what they're like now.

[snip]
*Any* nation that follows the rules of Islam is a danger or a potential
danger to world stability.. Islam has proven to be a far greater menace to
the world than National Socialism ever was.


As a Jew, I condemn your offensive remarks. If the Muslims had taken
over Europe, it seems likely that Jewish lives would have been better
and more secure than they were under hundreds of years of Christian
oppression and period pogroms following the Reconquista. If the Nazis
had taken over the world, I would never have been born.

The Nazis weren't too good to gays, either, in case you forgot about
that.

Michael

If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted.
  #30  
Old September 7th, 2004, 11:25 PM
Gregory Morrow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Pan wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:23:47 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


Alfred Molon wrote:

flyinyereye wrote:

I once saw a woman in KL in full black burka, with a pink helium

balloon
on
a string, whilst her husband was casually dressed in jeans, t-shirt

and
thongs (flip flops). The scene just seemed so wrong.

I think these women choose freely to dress like that - nobody is

forcing
them.



Nonsense. They are forced by their families and husbands and societal

laws
to dress like that. If they don't they'll be shunned - or *worse*, e.g.
stonings and even death.


Can you name the last time a Malaysian was stoned? You're a
bull****ter, which is worse than an ignoramus.



Hey you replied ;-p


Are we back to the
"monolithic Communists," only substituting "Muslims" for "Communists"?
Remember what they say about fools speaking.



If you close your eyes *very* tightly and just *wish* it you can be in
Tirana c. 1959!

--
Best
Greg


 




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