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  #11  
Old December 30th, 2012, 01:39 AM posted to rec.travel.europe
Erilar
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 599
Default German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda

Dan Stephenson wrote:
On 2012-10-09 07:08:58 -0500, Giovanni Drogo said:

The (autonomous) province of Trento correspond to the part called
"Trentino" and is exclusively of italian language. The (autonomous)
province of Bolzano/Bozen correspond to the part called "Alto Adige /
Südtirol" and is bilingual (actually trilingual, citizens have to
declare whether they belong to the German, Italian, or Ladin group).


Funny story. I was lost in Merano. This was back in 2009, the big trip.
The motorway from the south somehow enters Merano, but there was no way
to take the northerly road out, that I could see. I had to navigate
through the city. Got lost.

Once I drove around the same center three times, I asked for directions.
"Dove autostrada nord?"

And I get what I expected, a lightspeed response in Italian. Sigh. The
woman recognized I didn't follow, and perhaps because I was in a German
car, she asked, in German, if I spoke German! A little, I replied. So
through some pidgeon German and some pantomime (closing and opening hands
with fingers outstretched with the word "amphel"), I know how many meters
to travel until I went left, then after the third "amphel", drive right, etc..

Finally made it out. SO glad they spoke German up there.

Later in my trip, I stopped for fuel in this part of Italy and the clerk
without pause starting talking to me in German. I escape a tourist identification!

My German is the best non-English European language, and I've thought to
take a leave some day to immerse in a German language, maybe through some
classes at a local university. I always assumed it would be in Germany
or perhaps Austria. Maybe it could be south Tirol. Thoughts? I
understand the dialects can awkward to carry from place to place, but,
would it be any different in say, Berlin, if I spoke south Tirolish
German versus Bavarian, Stuttgartish, or Wiener German?


Local German dialects can be mutually unintelligible, but people in the
German-speaking areas all understand Hochdeutsch. I've never had trouble
being understood in any I've been in, and I'm often well off the beaten
path. There have been times when I've had difficulty understanding replies,
but because I speak the educated language fluently, i can allow for some
varience, and I can follow most people's attempts to do the same, as well
as a heavy infusion of some dialects. I've had conversations I didn't
understand parts of a time or two, however.





--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
  #12  
Old December 30th, 2012, 07:59 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
Dan Stephenson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 591
Default German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda

On 2012-12-29 18:39:19 -0600, Erilar said:

Dan Stephenson wrote:
On 2012-10-09 07:08:58 -0500, Giovanni Drogo said:

The (autonomous) province of Trento correspond to the part called
"Trentino" and is exclusively of italian language. The (autonomous)
province of Bolzano/Bozen correspond to the part called "Alto Adige /
Südtirol" and is bilingual (actually trilingual, citizens have to
declare whether they belong to the German, Italian, or Ladin group).


Funny story. I was lost in Merano. This was back in 2009, the big trip.
The motorway from the south somehow enters Merano, but there was no way
to take the northerly road out, that I could see. I had to navigate
through the city. Got lost.

Once I drove around the same center three times, I asked for directions.
"Dove autostrada nord?"

And I get what I expected, a lightspeed response in Italian. Sigh. The
woman recognized I didn't follow, and perhaps because I was in a German
car, she asked, in German, if I spoke German! A little, I replied. So
through some pidgeon German and some pantomime (closing and opening hands
with fingers outstretched with the word "amphel"), I know how many meters
to travel until I went left, then after the third "amphel", drive right, etc..

Finally made it out. SO glad they spoke German up there.

Later in my trip, I stopped for fuel in this part of Italy and the clerk
without pause starting talking to me in German. I escape a tourist
identification!

My German is the best non-English European language, and I've thought to
take a leave some day to immerse in a German language, maybe through some
classes at a local university. I always assumed it would be in Germany
or perhaps Austria. Maybe it could be south Tirol. Thoughts? I
understand the dialects can awkward to carry from place to place, but,
would it be any different in say, Berlin, if I spoke south Tirolish
German versus Bavarian, Stuttgartish, or Wiener German?


Local German dialects can be mutually unintelligible, but people in the
German-speaking areas all understand Hochdeutsch. I've never had trouble
being understood in any I've been in, and I'm often well off the beaten
path. There have been times when I've had difficulty understanding replies,
but because I speak the educated language fluently, i can allow for some
varience, and I can follow most people's attempts to do the same, as well
as a heavy infusion of some dialects. I've had conversations I didn't
understand parts of a time or two, however.


Is there a place or places in Germany where Hochdeutsch is the local dialect?

--
Dan Stephenson
http://stepheda.com
Travel pages for Europe and the U.S.A. (and New Zealand too)

  #13  
Old December 31st, 2012, 03:56 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
Erilar
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 599
Default German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda

Dan Stephenson wrote:
On 2012-12-29 18:39:19 -0600, Erilar said:

Dan Stephenson wrote:
On 2012-10-09 07:08:58 -0500, Giovanni Drogo said:
The (autonomous) province of Trento correspond to the part called
"Trentino" and is exclusively of italian language. The (autonomous)
province of Bolzano/Bozen correspond to the part called "Alto Adige /
Südtirol" and is bilingual (actually trilingual, citizens have to
declare whether they belong to the German, Italian, or Ladin group).
Funny story. I was lost in Merano. This was back in 2009, the big trip.
The motorway from the south somehow enters Merano, but there was no way
to take the northerly road out, that I could see. I had to navigate
through the city. Got lost.
Once I drove around the same center three times, I asked for directions.
"Dove autostrada nord?"
And I get what I expected, a lightspeed response in Italian. Sigh. The
woman recognized I didn't follow, and perhaps because I was in a German
car, she asked, in German, if I spoke German! A little, I replied. So
through some pidgeon German and some pantomime (closing and opening hands
with fingers outstretched with the word "amphel"), I know how many meters
to travel until I went left, then after the third "amphel", drive right, etc..
Finally made it out. SO glad they spoke German up there.
Later in my trip, I stopped for fuel in this part of Italy and the clerk
without pause starting talking to me in German. I escape a tourist identification!
My German is the best non-English European language, and I've thought to
take a leave some day to immerse in a German language, maybe through some
classes at a local university. I always assumed it would be in Germany
or perhaps Austria. Maybe it could be south Tirol. Thoughts? I
understand the dialects can awkward to carry from place to place, but,
would it be any different in say, Berlin, if I spoke south Tirolish
German versus Bavarian, Stuttgartish, or Wiener German?
Local German dialects can be mutually unintelligible, but people in the

German-speaking areas all understand Hochdeutsch. I've never had trouble
being understood in any I've been in, and I'm often well off the beaten
path. There have been times when I've had difficulty understanding replies,
but because I speak the educated language fluently, i can allow for some
varience, and I can follow most people's attempts to do the same, as well
as a heavy infusion of some dialects. I've had conversations I didn't
understand parts of a time or two, however.


Is there a place or places in Germany where Hochdeutsch is the local dialect?


Everywhere on TV 8-). Also everywhere in higher education. Local dialects
in the middle of the country are closer to it.

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
  #14  
Old January 3rd, 2013, 11:50 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
Tom P[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 563
Default German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda

On 12/31/2012 03:56 PM, Erilar wrote:
Dan Stephenson wrote:
On 2012-12-29 18:39:19 -0600, Erilar said:

Dan Stephenson wrote:
On 2012-10-09 07:08:58 -0500, Giovanni Drogo said:
The (autonomous) province of Trento correspond to the part called
"Trentino" and is exclusively of italian language. The (autonomous)
province of Bolzano/Bozen correspond to the part called "Alto Adige /
Südtirol" and is bilingual (actually trilingual, citizens have to
declare whether they belong to the German, Italian, or Ladin group).
Funny story. I was lost in Merano. This was back in 2009, the big trip.
The motorway from the south somehow enters Merano, but there was no way
to take the northerly road out, that I could see. I had to navigate
through the city. Got lost.
Once I drove around the same center three times, I asked for directions.
"Dove autostrada nord?"
And I get what I expected, a lightspeed response in Italian. Sigh. The
woman recognized I didn't follow, and perhaps because I was in a German
car, she asked, in German, if I spoke German! A little, I replied. So
through some pidgeon German and some pantomime (closing and opening hands
with fingers outstretched with the word "amphel"), I know how many meters
to travel until I went left, then after the third "amphel", drive right, etc..
Finally made it out. SO glad they spoke German up there.
Later in my trip, I stopped for fuel in this part of Italy and the clerk
without pause starting talking to me in German. I escape a tourist identification!
My German is the best non-English European language, and I've thought to
take a leave some day to immerse in a German language, maybe through some
classes at a local university. I always assumed it would be in Germany
or perhaps Austria. Maybe it could be south Tirol. Thoughts? I
understand the dialects can awkward to carry from place to place, but,
would it be any different in say, Berlin, if I spoke south Tirolish
German versus Bavarian, Stuttgartish, or Wiener German?
Local German dialects can be mutually unintelligible, but people in the
German-speaking areas all understand Hochdeutsch. I've never had trouble
being understood in any I've been in, and I'm often well off the beaten
path. There have been times when I've had difficulty understanding replies,
but because I speak the educated language fluently, i can allow for some
varience, and I can follow most people's attempts to do the same, as well
as a heavy infusion of some dialects. I've had conversations I didn't
understand parts of a time or two, however.


Is there a place or places in Germany where Hochdeutsch is the local dialect?


Everywhere on TV 8-). Also everywhere in higher education. Local dialects
in the middle of the country are closer to it.

Hochdeutsch technically refers to the distinction to Plattdeutsch (Low
German) and other dialects, but generally it is what Standard German is
called, and I think that is what Dan means. Standard German is the
natural language everywhere and nowhere - even in Lower Saxony, there
are local accents, and some people speak a variety of Plattdeutsch,
which nobody else understands.
http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plattd%C3%BC%C3%BCtsch
More or less by definition, all educated Germans can speak Standard
German, but they may well speak with their regional accent, or they may
also switch to a local dialect when they want to. Some dialects are more
or less mutually incomprehensible. I live in the Rhineland, and the
local accent and dialect sound totally normal for me, for someone from
Bavaria or Stuttgart they might well sound very strange. Conversely, I
have severe problems understanding any one from Bavaria or Stuttgart
when he drops into his local dialect.



  #15  
Old January 4th, 2013, 07:41 AM posted to rec.travel.europe
Erick T. Barkhuis[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 180
Default German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda

Tom P:


Is there a place or places in Germany where Hochdeutsch is the
local dialect?


Yes. Generally spoken in the area around and between Osnabrück and
Hannover.


Hochdeutsch technically refers to the distinction to Plattdeutsch
(Low German) and other dialects, but generally it is what Standard
German is called, and I think that is what Dan means. Standard German
is the natural language everywhere and nowhere - even in Lower
Saxony, there are local accents, and some people speak a variety of
Plattdeutsch, which nobody else understands.


Absolutely correct.
In my region, in the west of Lower Saxony, a dialect consisting of
Saxonian and Dutch phrases, spoken with a weird accent, is common.
Among each other, locals all usually speak this dialect, which is hard
for me to understand (although I'm practically fluent in German and
Dutch is my native tongue). When I'm joining a group of neighbours,
most of them politely switch to Hochdeutsch, so I can converse along
with them.


Some dialects are more or less mutually incomprehensible.


Correct.
In five weeks from now, the carnival speakers will demonstrate this on
TV again. Even relatively close neighbours (geographically spoken) from
Mainz and Cologne will have trouble to fully understand each others'
dialect.
  #16  
Old January 4th, 2013, 10:54 AM posted to rec.travel.europe
Surreyman[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 303
Default German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda

On Friday, January 4, 2013 6:41:15 AM UTC, Erick T. Barkhuis wrote:
Tom P:





Is there a place or places in Germany where Hochdeutsch is the


local dialect?




Yes. Generally spoken in the area around and between Osnabrück and

Hannover.





Hochdeutsch technically refers to the distinction to Plattdeutsch


(Low German) and other dialects, but generally it is what Standard


German is called, and I think that is what Dan means. Standard German


is the natural language everywhere and nowhere - even in Lower


Saxony, there are local accents, and some people speak a variety of


Plattdeutsch, which nobody else understands.




Absolutely correct.

In my region, in the west of Lower Saxony, a dialect consisting of

Saxonian and Dutch phrases, spoken with a weird accent, is common.

Among each other, locals all usually speak this dialect, which is hard

for me to understand (although I'm practically fluent in German and

Dutch is my native tongue). When I'm joining a group of neighbours,

most of them politely switch to Hochdeutsch, so I can converse along

with them.





Some dialects are more or less mutually incomprehensible.




Correct.

In five weeks from now, the carnival speakers will demonstrate this on

TV again. Even relatively close neighbours (geographically spoken) from

Mainz and Cologne will have trouble to fully understand each others'

dialect.


This is all hardly surprising.
Even accents within the UK can cause problems, even with no dialect words.
I (from Surrey) once had to 'translate' my MD's Paisley (Scotland) accent in a Pennsylvania business meeting!
  #17  
Old January 4th, 2013, 02:05 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
S Viemeister[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 407
Default German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda

On 1/4/2013 4:54 AM, Surreyman wrote:

This is all hardly surprising.
Even accents within the UK can cause problems, even with no dialect words.
I (from Surrey) once had to 'translate' my MD's Paisley (Scotland) accent in a Pennsylvania business meeting!

And I've had to translate between Lowland Scots and Texans. Both sides
believed themselves to be speaking English.
  #18  
Old January 4th, 2013, 03:38 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
Dan Stephenson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 591
Default German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda

On 2013-01-03 16:50:17 -0600, Tom P said:
Hochdeutsch technically refers to the distinction to Plattdeutsch (Low
German) and other dialects, but generally it is what Standard German is
called, and I think that is what Dan means. Standard German is the
natural language everywhere and nowhere - even in Lower Saxony, there
are local accents, and some people speak a variety of Plattdeutsch,
which nobody else understands.
http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plattd%C3%BC%C3%BCtsch
More or less by definition, all educated Germans can speak Standard
German, but they may well speak with their regional accent, or they may
also switch to a local dialect when they want to. Some dialects are
more or less mutually incomprehensible. I live in the Rhineland, and
the local accent and dialect sound totally normal for me, for someone
from Bavaria or Stuttgart they might well sound very strange.
Conversely, I have severe problems understanding any one from Bavaria
or Stuttgart when he drops into his local dialect.


In this case, if my goal is immersion, the language aspect is less
important that what I am doing where I am located. I can just be a
Bavarian speaker, or whatever. I need to focus on what, and where.

What are the good engineering school in the German-speaking Alps?
Bavaria, Austria, South Tirol, Swizteraland -- all good. rsvp, please
post,

--
Dan Stephenson
http://stepheda.com
Travel pages for Europe and the U.S.A. (and New Zealand too)

  #19  
Old January 4th, 2013, 03:45 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
Dan Stephenson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 591
Default German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda

On 2013-01-04 03:54:08 -0600, Surreyman said:

This is all hardly surprising.
Even accents within the UK can cause problems, even with no dialect words.
I (from Surrey) once had to 'translate' my MD's Paisley (Scotland)
accent in a Pennsylvania business meeting!


This reminds me, the most difficult time I had in Europe understanding
English, was in England. :-)

It is amazing; in America there are local accents, but except in a few
narrow areas, there are no dialects in the meaning you use. Yet in
Europe, everything is so segmented! I don't just mean between nations,
but like the above, where small distances within a country can make a
big difference. I guess it goes back to historical times where
sub-principalities were previously independent. Plus, people do not
seem to move around as much in Europe as, say, America. For the same
reason I suppose.

--
Dan Stephenson
http://stepheda.com
Travel pages for Europe and the U.S.A. (and New Zealand too)

  #20  
Old January 4th, 2013, 10:37 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
JohnT[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 107
Default German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda


"S Viemeister" wrote in message
...
On 1/4/2013 4:54 AM, Surreyman wrote:

This is all hardly surprising.
Even accents within the UK can cause problems, even with no dialect
words.
I (from Surrey) once had to 'translate' my MD's Paisley (Scotland) accent
in a Pennsylvania business meeting!

And I've had to translate between Lowland Scots and Texans. Both sides
believed themselves to be speaking English.


The denizens of Birmingham also believe that English is their native
language.

--
JohnT

 




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