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![]() "Giovanni Drogo" wrote in message news:alpine.LSU.2.00.1707121024490.21780@cbfrvqba. ynzoengr.vans.vg... On Tue, 11 Jul 2017, tim... wrote: I first (and only) visited Sicily in 82 when I was working a year in Italy Well, as far as tourism is concerned when I was in Sicily I did it with organized tours, except when I was there for work (but that was just in Palermo and Catania, and Erice which is a conference place ... the conference organizers, there and in Catania, took care of appropriate tours) I do not consider it a public transport friendly place. Recently a disable friend (in wheelchair) wanted to spend a weekend in Palermo (without hiring a car as sometimes the person who accompanies him does), and I guess he missed some places like Monreale. I scheduled a two week holiday which I spent in the very south of Italy and on the Island - travelling by train. You were very brave (*). The sicilian railways have poor fame (slow and unfrequent), apparently the locals prefer buses. (*) or are you a railway fan ? I was 24, "poor" and with zero experience of driving on the wrong side of the road, and IME (as a pedestrian) Italy is not the best choice of county to change that - I have still never driven there. thanks |
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![]() "Giovanni Drogo" wrote in message news:alpine.LSU.2.00.1707121024490.21780@cbfrvqba. ynzoengr.vans.vg... On Tue, 11 Jul 2017, tim... wrote: I first (and only) visited Sicily in 82 when I was working a year in Italy Well, as far as tourism is concerned when I was in Sicily I did it with organized tours, except when I was there for work (but that was just in Palermo and Catania, and Erice which is a conference place ... the conference organizers, there and in Catania, took care of appropriate tours) I do not consider it a public transport friendly place. Recently a disable friend (in wheelchair) wanted to spend a weekend in Palermo (without hiring a car as sometimes the person who accompanies him does), and I guess he missed some places like Monreale. I scheduled a two week holiday which I spent in the very south of Italy and on the Island - travelling by train. You were very brave (*). The sicilian railways have poor fame (slow and unfrequent), apparently the locals prefer buses. (*) or are you a railway fan ? The actor Marco Paolini and the journalist Paolo Rumiz did a full railway tour of Italy using only local trains and starting just from Sicily if I remember well. The book is called "L'Italia in seconda classe" (Italy in 2nd class, I do not know if it was translated) I'm sure that I missed some places. I remember that I got the train to Enna, fully expecting that if the station wasn't in the town centre (it isn't by about 5 km) there would be as bus as the had been at *every* other random Italian town that I had visited. But there wasn't and still isn't I guess I'd never consider Enna as a destination worth visiting. I still think the station is poorly connected. In the last years on a transport forum we run a contest "virtual tour of Italy with public transport" where we had to plan trips from place to place using information on web sites, and for Enna almost every participant used buses. Anyhow ... I'd never taken the ferry from Reggio Calabria to Messina, though the sight of the strait should be nice, and I've never visited Messina (which was destroyed in the quake of 1908), always skimmed around it. Anyhow there is a main railway line from Messina to Palermo but I am not sure how comfortable it is for the main sights along the route. Tindari has a shrine up on the hill (not of artistic or historic interest) with a beautiful view on the dunes below. Milazzo is the main port going to the Lipari islands, but I thin the harbour and the station are not near (we came from Catania airport with there's bound to be a bus, surely here you go: http://lanostramilazzo.altervista.or...%202017%20.pdf a van). The islands (Vulcano, Lipari, Panarea and Stromboli are the ones I visited, the others are farther) are definitely worth visiting. I hadn't really considered visiting the Islands The ferries don't seem to be overly helpful when visiting for a day trip, but accommodation on the islands is so limited that you really have plan ahead to get it right spending 3 or 4 days on these islands definitely works against touring by car Cefalu' has a nice norman cathedral, and possibly it is the best located for what railways connections are concerned. Bagheria near Palermo should host some nice villas, but I am not sure if they are open for visits. Solunto? Palermo you possibly know and should be visitable within walking distances or using urban buses. I guess they go even up to Monreale with a VERY nice norman cathedral with mosaics. seems to be bus 389 http://amat.pa.it/immagini/mappa_agg_2016_04_01.pdf (what a rubbish map that is - unreadable "normal" sized, out of focus zoomed in) And don't get me started on maps that are orientated the wrong way round AFAIK the railway connection to Palermo airport is closed for refurbishment (I always used the frequent bus connection, when I went there the railway link was not existing). since 29th June 2015 - haven't they finished it yet - it's only a few Km that is being upgraded It should be a branch of a line going to Trapani and Castelvetrano. In Trapani I visited only the Pepoli museum (we came down half a day from Erice), but it should be the main port towards the Egadi islands (where I've never been). Erice is up on the hill (sometimes in the fog) and worth visiting (I do not know about connections, there used to be even a funicolar, I always used the coach of the conference centre). I've never visited Marsala, the saline (salt flats) and the western coast. didn't know of the salt flats The railway line to Castelvetrano (on the southern coast) should have a stop near the Segesta temple (but I guess a fair walk). would that be the stop called Segesta tempio? Google isn't showing the intermediate stops on this line, though it is showing the times of 4 or 5 trains from Alcamo Diramazione to Trapani, so I guess the line's still open - (in 82 there was 11 trains a day) Oh, looking on DB I see that all the Trapani services are via Castelvetrano, so the direct line's not still open No sign of any buses either Was there with tours both from Palermo and Erice. It is an unfinished doric temple built by the Elimi, fully isolated (the theatre and other remains are behind a hill, possibly the archeological site has a shuttle connecting them. As far as I know there are no operating railways on the south-west coast (near Selinunte temples, that's in a town, there's bound to be a bus (presumably from Campobello di Mazara) or Sciacca). The main lines from Palermo to Agrigento and Catania go through the interior (you know Enna), which I never visited. The station in Agrigento is near the old centre, but the excellent archeological site, as the name "Temple Valley" says, is down in the valley. I caught the bus the site is so big it looks walkable, but after about 15 minutes of not being significantly nearer I gave up and waited at the next bus stop I wouldn't even consider walking now. I do not know about transport connections to Piazza Armerina, nor about the distance to the roman Villa del Casale (which has an impressive collection of floor mosaics). Another main line goes from Messina to Catania and Siracusa. It stops at Taormina (but the city is up on a hill) I stayed in the cheep and awful hotel opposite the station and walked up the hill more than once but isn't there a cable car or something now? and Acireale. I guess not very frequent (when we had a conference at Capo Mulini, I preferred to take the tour to Etna rather than going myself by train to Siracusa). Two things I never done in that area are the railways tour around Etna with the Circumetnea railway, and the visit to the Alcantara gorges. Siracusa has a nice archeological area. don't you just hate the way that Americans pronounce this town's name :-) tim |
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On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 09:23:59 +0100, "tim..."
wrote: "Ken Blake" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 20:35:25 +0100, "tim..." wrote: "Martin" wrote in message news ![]() wrote: "Surreyman" wrote in message ... On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 9:27:50 PM UTC+1, Ken Blake wrote: On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:46:56 -0700, poldy wrote: When I think of Andalucia, I remember the story about the Puerto del Suspiro del Moro, the way the sultan left Granada after being kicked out. Then of course there's the Ponte dei Sospiri in Venice. Different kind of sigh but interesting that two different places evoked similar responses. A pretty similar kind of sigh. The Ponte dei Sospiri is a bridge connecting the Palazzo Dogale with the prison cells. It's not called the "bridge of sighs" because of any sighs of people sighing when looking at it from the outside.It has a small window in it, and prisoners were said to sigh as they crossed the bridge, looked out the window, and saw their last glimpse of daylight before being locked up. "Vikings who later settle in the area, selling cheese"? Well, that really enhances our historical knowledge of the del Sol. I agree, though, that sadly this group has largely lapsed. We've just returned from a fascinating first amble around Sicily, but I doubt if anyone is interested .............. ? yes please :-) Me too! to be clear that I'm not just asking in order to keep the group alive .... I first (and only) visited Sicily in 82 when I was working a year in Italy This was pre internet, without a guide book, flying by the seat of my pants stuff I knew a few places that I had to go to: Mt Etna, Agrigento, Palermo etc I scheduled a two week holiday which I spent in the very south of Italy and on the Island - travelling by train. It was November BTW, glorious weather all week, though it did **** down the previous week when I had been in Naples :-( I'm sure that I missed some places. I remember that I got the train to Enna, fully expecting that if the station wasn't in the town centre (it isn't by about 5 km) there would be as bus as the had been at *every* other random Italian town that I had visited. But there wasn't and still isn't (actually I found a web site that says that there us, but there are no bus stops on street view!) - and there isn't even a sign of a taxi rank, though no doubt there's now a phone number on the wall that you can ring with your mobile - something that I, of course, didn't have in 82. Now, with 35 years of traveling experience behind me, I think I should go back and fill in the gaps. I'm minded to hire a car, but I am concerned by the overly cheap prices that are charged and whether it is possible to avoid all the scams that you read of to bump up the costs when you get there. Or I can again go by train (and bus) though this time using the internet to plan properly. Or I could see if I can add on some organised day trips from hotels in the mains towns - I don't rate that option much, but sometimes it works. or there is this: http://www.secretitalia.it/tours/sic...lendours-tour/ but plus flights (and therefore no obligation on the tour company to help you if the flights are late/cancelled) the price is just silly So am generally interested in how you travelled around and any out of the ordinary places that you visited. Places: Palermo, Monreale, Segesta, Erice, Agrigento, Selinunte, Siracusa, Taormina. I've always rented a car when I went to Sicily, and that's what I recommend. and what should one pay for this. I have no idea. It was many years ago that I last did it. I have just one other recommendation. If you are going to be in Naples, why would I be in Naples on this trip? I have no idea. Note that I said "if." But even if you were someplace like Rome, you might want to take a train to Naples to catch the ferry. I shall be flying from London OK. I was only in Naples the previous time because I got the overnight train from Milan, instead of taking a train to Sicily, you might want to take the overnight ferry to Palermo or Catania, and then return to the mainland from the other. I haven't checked the prices recently, but the last time I went, the cost was about the same as staying in a hotel, which means that it costs nothing extra for that night. And since you will be asleep for most of the trip, it doesn't take any time out of your overall trip, the way a train would. is there no longer a night train for that journey? Can you sleep on overnight trains? Fine, if you can. But I can't. I find sleeping in a seat uncomfortable, and besides, I worry about thievery if I'm asleep. |
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Can you sleep on overnight trains? Fine, if you can. But I can't. I
find sleeping in a seat uncomfortable, and besides, I worry about thievery if I'm asleep. I can usually sleep on anything with wheels. And the night sleeper train from Budapest to Romania was the most comfortable I've ever used. But I got one of my worst nights sleep ever on it - partly the immense fuss about the border control, but more because the guy I was sharing a compartment with was chain-slugging Red Bull and arranging amphetamine deals on his mobile all night. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland mobile 07895 860 060 http://www.campin.me.uk Twitter: JackCampin |
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![]() "Ken Blake" wrote in message ... On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 09:23:59 +0100, "tim..." wrote: Can you sleep on overnight trains? not in a seat but passably in whatever passes for beds on current services you have to pay more for that, of course, but no more than the ferry costs. |
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![]() "Surreyman" wrote in message ... Well, it's the long version or the short version! We'll keep to the latter pro tem. Our normal travelling is usually very much DIY. So, based in the east in Taormina, we had sketched out two weeks in May of moving around most sights in the island. However - thank you travel industry - we were advised with far too little notice that G7, of which we'd never heard, was causing a lockdown and cancellation of all hotel reservations in Taormina for the duration. We wanted to stay with the hotel carefully chosen (within all this was a family celebration) so we ended up in Taormina a month late, and in uncustomary heat and humidity (even for Sicily!) that foreshortened too much activity. So we stayed centred in the east, cut our various overnighting stays planned in the west and, in the reduced 'charging around' time relied on conducted tours more than we usually would. Here's a precis of some notes I sent to a friend who's also shortly visiting for the first time. Aeolian islands: Beautiful. Get cruises for the day from the port near Messina. Do include the version that stands off at sea in the dark of the evening so that you can watch Stromboli erupting - we saw 4 good bangs/flames within 45 minutes. Great stuff! Etna: Can't be missed - we were very lucky and apart from heat haze had exceptional views. Depending on your preference you can stop at the end of the road access (with views up towards the main craters, plus small old craters nearby to look at), or go on the cable car rather higher, and then take 'jeep coaches' higher still, and then move as high as the guides will let you trek depending on volcanic action. Your choice! We saw copious smoke action from two top craters plus some black ash eruption. Marvellous day! Syracuse: Its history is rather more interesting than what is left (!) but nevertheless well worth walking around if you have spare time. Good stuff from ancient Greek to Roman/Byzantine/Norman and later, but relatively sparse. A half-day conducted walk would ensure you saw the highlights. Taormina: Our base, which proved exceptionally good for that, and very attractively sited below Etna. It appears on numerous excursions from other parts of Sicily, but I wouldn't have thought it was worth any significant diversion by travellers unless close anyway, but it's certainly very pleasant, with several good mediaeval piazzas. All the above using locally arranged day trips? |
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On Wed, 12 Jul 2017, tim... wrote:
I scheduled a two week holiday which I spent in the very south of Italy and on the Island - travelling by train. You were very brave (*). The sicilian railways have poor fame (slow and unfrequent), apparently the locals prefer buses. (*) or are you a railway fan ? I was 24, "poor" and with zero experience of driving on the wrong side of the road, and IME (as a pedestrian) Italy is not the best choice of county to change that - I have still never driven there. So more or less my age. When I just graduated I went to my first conference (in Cape Sounion) with train Milan-Ancona, ferry to Patras and bus to Athens. Actually I don't drive anywhere (don't have a driving license), I have travelled a lot by public transport anywhere north of the Alps (northernmost spots Narvik and Inverness), and in Lombardy, Marche, Tuscany (even when planning implied to go the bus station and looking up the timetable). I may be biased in not considering Sicily a public transport friendly area. After all, in the Montalbano stories, Livia often gets to Vigata by bus when he forgets to pick her up at the airport :-) |
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On Wed, 12 Jul 2017, tim... wrote:
a van). The islands (Vulcano, Lipari, Panarea and Stromboli are the ones I visited, the others are farther) are definitely worth visiting. I hadn't really considered visiting the Islands The ferries don't seem to be overly helpful when visiting for a day trip, but accommodation on the islands is so limited that you really have plan ahead to get it right spending 3 or 4 days on these islands definitely works against touring by car You won't need a car except perhaps on Lipari which is a bit large to be walkable (some 6 km across and hilly), if you want to collect pumice and obsidian. Actually there are no cars at all at Panarea (we walked from the harbour to the archeological site), and I'm not sure about Stromboli (the two inhabited points should not be connected by road). Even Vulcano should be walkable. As far as I know the boat and hydrofoil service should be acceptable. Problem can be rough weather. We were in an organized tour with a small group. We went by van from Catania airport to Milazzo (getting an impressive thunderstorm on the motorway just as we left the shade of Etna), and found all boats were cancelled. Our guide found an hotel at Capo d'Orlando, and found that the morning after there was a boat from there to Vulcano and Lipari (Italian Touring Club guides usually have a budget to cater for situations like these). We did a day trip to Vulcano by regular service boat (it's just across the strait), and another to Panarea, and Stromboli coming back in the evening, but I guess this was a chartered boat (not just for our small group, we weren't alone). It stopped off Panarea to let people have a swim, and after dinner toured a bit around Stromboli to see Strombolicchio and the Sciara (the incline where lava gets down into the sea). We had a van to go round Lipari (not the one we left on the mainland), and came back by hydrofoil. And don't get me started on maps that are orientated the wrong way round Don't tell me. I cannot stand the hybrid stuff ATM (the Milan transport agency) has placed at tram stops. They are not linear line DIAGRAMS, and they aren't regular maps, north up, but sort of Peutingerian maps, long and thin, made cutting pieces of regular maps and joining them "rectified" along the tram route. I've never visited Marsala, the saline (salt flats) and the western coast. didn't know of the salt flats Uh, actually I had to look up the word, so I may have got the wrong one. We call them "saline" (plural, sing. "salina"). They are flat areas where they let sea water in to evaporate, and then collect the salt. The main ones still in use for commercial purpose should be in Puglia. I guess the ones near Trapani are also still active, but part of them is a museum/park. So for the smaller ones near Cervia (northern Adriatic), which produce a particularly sweet salt (I am not sure if depends on the concentration of which oligo-element). Some amateurs supporting the salt museum in Cervia run "manually" a salina in the old way, and this salt is for sale at the museum. I heard there are also salt mines in some place in the interior of Sicily (should date back to the "Messinian salinity crisis" when Gibraltar strait closed and the Mediterranean evaporated) The railway line to Castelvetrano (on the southern coast) should have a stop near the Segesta temple (but I guess a fair walk). would that be the stop called Segesta tempio? the name makes sense, I cannot locate it on google maps. I'll try openstreetmap (rather good at computing walking paths though underestimates walking time) or openrailwaymap hmm, according to openrailwaymap that's tagged "abandoned track", but Calatafimi looks near, wikipedia lists Segesta Tempio as in use, but https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrovia_Palermo-Trapani says "service interrupted" Hmm ... actually zooming in on openrailwampa one sees that the "abandoned track" goes south through "Calatafimi-Segesta", but Calatafimi station is on the east and Segesta Tempio to the north of the archeological area ... but on the suspended service line ! :-( Some other site quotes a "Tarantola Bus" company. Oh, looking on DB I see that all the Trapani services are via Castelvetrano, so the direct line's not still open I tend also to use a DB site to get railway timetables across all Europe, though one has to use the Trenitalia site to get tickets (but that mainly for Le Frecce, "the arrows" i.e. the high speed trains, which haven't got south of Naples), but I found instead useful this site http://www.rfi.it/rfi.html (RFI is the owner of the infrastructure, rails and station). If you click on "Quadri orario online" you can get a pdf of the arrival and departure timetables of each individual stations, exactly the ones present in the station. http://www.viaggiatreno.it is instead the utility to get real time situation of trains (both long distance, and by region). For Lombardy, where Trenord runs regional train, the qeuivalent service is http://www.my-link.it/mylink/ |
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![]() "Giovanni Drogo" wrote in message news:alpine.LSU.2.00.1707131010310.25294@cbfrvqba. ynzoengr.vans.vg... On Wed, 12 Jul 2017, tim... wrote: a van). The islands (Vulcano, Lipari, Panarea and Stromboli are the ones I visited, the others are farther) are definitely worth visiting. I hadn't really considered visiting the Islands The ferries don't seem to be overly helpful when visiting for a day trip, but accommodation on the islands is so limited that you really have plan ahead to get it right spending 3 or 4 days on these islands definitely works against touring by car You won't need a car except perhaps on Lipari which is a bit large to be walkable (some 6 km across and hilly), if you want to collect pumice and obsidian. no I didn't mean taking the car to the Islands I meant that having to leave the car on the dock side for 3 or 4 days negates against the option of hiring it in the first place that's 3/4 days you are paying for not using it. Actually there are no cars at all at Panarea (we walked from the harbour to the archeological site), and I'm not sure about Stromboli (the two inhabited points should not be connected by road). Even Vulcano should be walkable. As far as I know the boat and hydrofoil service should be acceptable. Problem can be rough weather. We were in an organized tour with a small group. We went by van from Catania airport to Milazzo (getting an impressive thunderstorm on the motorway just as we left the shade of Etna), and found all boats were cancelled. Our guide found an hotel at Capo d'Orlando, and found that the morning after there was a boat from there to Vulcano and Lipari (Italian Touring Club guides usually have a budget to cater for situations like these). We did a day trip to Vulcano by regular service boat (it's just across the strait), and another to Panarea, and Stromboli coming back in the evening, but I guess this was a chartered boat (not just for our small group, we weren't alone). It stopped off Panarea to let people have a swim, and after dinner toured a bit around Stromboli to see Strombolicchio and the Sciara (the incline where lava gets down into the sea). We had a van to go round Lipari (not the one we left on the mainland), and came back by hydrofoil. And don't get me started on maps that are orientated the wrong way round Don't tell me. I cannot stand the hybrid stuff ATM (the Milan transport agency) has placed at tram stops. They are not linear line DIAGRAMS, and they aren't regular maps, north up, but sort of Peutingerian maps, long and thin, made cutting pieces of regular maps and joining them "rectified" along the tram route. I've never visited Marsala, the saline (salt flats) and the western coast. didn't know of the salt flats Uh, actually I had to look up the word, so I may have got the wrong one. We call them "saline" (plural, sing. "salina"). They are flat areas where they let sea water in to evaporate, and then collect the salt. I did wonder salt pans is probably the correct terminology salt flats are a natural phenomena, like the ones in Utah that are renowned for testing race cars more pristine ones that are easily visited can be found in Tunisia |
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On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 8:24:54 AM UTC+1, tim... wrote:
"Surreyman" wrote in message ... Well, it's the long version or the short version! We'll keep to the latter pro tem. Our normal travelling is usually very much DIY. So, based in the east in Taormina, we had sketched out two weeks in May of moving around most sights in the island. However - thank you travel industry - we were advised with far too little notice that G7, of which we'd never heard, was causing a lockdown and cancellation of all hotel reservations in Taormina for the duration. We wanted to stay with the hotel carefully chosen (within all this was a family celebration) so we ended up in Taormina a month late, and in uncustomary heat and humidity (even for Sicily!) that foreshortened too much activity. So we stayed centred in the east, cut our various overnighting stays planned in the west and, in the reduced 'charging around' time relied on conducted tours more than we usually would. Here's a precis of some notes I sent to a friend who's also shortly visiting for the first time. Aeolian islands: Beautiful. Get cruises for the day from the port near Messina. Do include the version that stands off at sea in the dark of the evening so that you can watch Stromboli erupting - we saw 4 good bangs/flames within 45 minutes. Great stuff! Etna: Can't be missed - we were very lucky and apart from heat haze had exceptional views. Depending on your preference you can stop at the end of the road access (with views up towards the main craters, plus small old craters nearby to look at), or go on the cable car rather higher, and then take 'jeep coaches' higher still, and then move as high as the guides will let you trek depending on volcanic action. Your choice! We saw copious smoke action from two top craters plus some black ash eruption. Marvellous day! Syracuse: Its history is rather more interesting than what is left (!) but nevertheless well worth walking around if you have spare time. Good stuff from ancient Greek to Roman/Byzantine/Norman and later, but relatively sparse. A half-day conducted walk would ensure you saw the highlights. Taormina: Our base, which proved exceptionally good for that, and very attractively sited below Etna. It appears on numerous excursions from other parts of Sicily, but I wouldn't have thought it was worth any significant diversion by travellers unless close anyway, but it's certainly very pleasant, with several good mediaeval piazzas. All the above using locally arranged day trips? Aeolians, Syracuse & Etna, yep. All other Taormina area and hill villages under our own steam - buses, cars. |
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