Why are foreigners who have never set foot in the US obsessed with how much and how we spend and how we spend our bucks on our excellent health care?

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 14:24:39 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

John Kulp writes:

Right. Lack of medical care had nothing to do with it.

Nearly so. It's impossible to put 15,000 people under medical care just in
case they develop hyperthermia. And hyperthermia can develop quickly, killing
its victim long before medical care can be obtained. And hyperthermia does
not necessarily require complex management--the primary treatment is cooling
of the victim, which can be accomplished without the aid of a hospital or
doctor. But the main defense against heatstroke is prevention, i.e., adequate
cooling of the environment.

The self-appointed medical specialist speaks again. So, in this
advanced democracy, out of a population of some 63 million people and
185,000 plus doctors can't handle 15,000 people huh? They never heard
of temporary facilities, like school gyms, etc. to handle like is done
here? Of course, if they were all on vacation and wouldn't come back,
which was the real reason everybody but you knows was the real reason
they couldn't be treated. Great system. No backups at all for
emergencies.


They could have been brought to hospitals and treated.

How would they be found? Where would you put 15,000 people with heatstroke?
What treatment could you offer them that would not have been matched or made
unnecessary by air conditioning?

Uh, they could call themselve if they didn't feel well, or their
family, friends or neighbors couldn't? How stupid were these people?
Same as for any ailment. Gyms, etc. like I said is where you put
them, just like we do. Hotels, etc. Are you so dense you don't
understand that they didn't have air conditioning apparently which is
why they had the problem. So you take them to places with
airconditioning and treat the symptoms, put them in ice baths, and a
whole host of other options.


The fact is, it got very hot, and there was no air conditioning, so people
died. That always happens in heat waves. Lots of people died in this case
because the heat was extreme.

Sure it does, but in no other developed country has it killed anywhere
near this many people. Uhh, because their doctors were not all on
vacation and wouldn't come back which is the real reason that everyone
knows except you who keeps coming up with this crap? And was why the
French health minister was canned.

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:30:50 +1000, "dechucka"
wrote:


"John Kulp" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 11:24:17 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
wrote:

Make credence recognised that on Sat, 11 Aug 2007 18:22:17 GMT,
(John Kulp) has scripted:

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 20:25:46 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
wrote:

Yes, I could point out the numerous things that the USA has acquired
from the outside world, but from experience that is a complete waste
of time, because Americans are too damn proud to accept that America
is just another country, like every other.

If you can, why don't you babbler? And I have no problem accepting
that America is just another country. I would just love to leave you
cretins on you own to solve your own problems. Like Bosnia. Did a
great job there without us didn't you? How many got slaughtered there
again?

I can't believe you had to resort to that.

Actually I can, which is why I didn't feel like engaging in a sensible
debate in the first place.

Because you can't, of course. Proud of the fact that Europe sat on
its hands for something like 12 years before we stepped in and ended.
See also, Hitler, Moussilini, etc. etc.

I think you will find that the US sat on its hands when Hitler and Mussolini
were threatening Europe



Oh that's right. I forgot that the hundreds of thousands of US killed
and wounded happened in the US and would later shipped over to be put
in graves in France and elsewhere. That's right. That's what
happened.

Make credence recognised that on Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:30:50 +1000,
"dechucka" has scripted:


"John Kulp" wrote in message
...

Because you can't, of course. Proud of the fact that Europe sat on
its hands for something like 12 years before we stepped in and ended.
See also, Hitler, Moussilini, etc. etc.

I think you will find that the US sat on its hands when Hitler and Mussolini
were threatening Europe

That would depend on the history book.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 22:07:34 GMT, (John Kulp)
wrote:

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:27:13 GMT, grant kinsley
wrote:


Just an important one for me is Novo Nordisk in Denmark. One of the
world leaders in recombinant DNA produced proteins, they not only
produce a variety of human analogue insulins, but also recombinant
factor VII for hemophiliacs, Norditropin, a synthetic human growth
hormone and are currently testing for a variety of anti-tumour
proteins.

Thats a quick sample of what the rest of the world is doing, took me
about 10 minutes to find that and certainly represents a nice slice of
the many things that worldwide labs, both large and small are doing.

Well good for you. You have done your research. I won't go into how
Pfizer is the largest in the world, has the largest selling drug in
Lipitor, etc. etc. It is true that these companies developed those
you cite, but the question is where not who. Most if not all of these
countries have major facilities in the US where a lot of r and d is
done and they do a lot together with other companies. A lot of the
research is also done in universities, not companies in any case and
licensed to the companies. In any case, as I stated before, I have no
problem acknowledging that this is a global interconnected business.
I was simply refuting Black's nonsense about the US having a ghastly
system. You at least answer intelligently which is appreciated. Much
better than the others who just babble and ignore the very real faults
of their systems.


the largest selling company doesn't provide 90% of the development.

If you want to talk aboput where development takes, it is all over the
world with studies in many many countries, so your whining on that
front doesn't hold up. There are university sites throughout western
Europe, Canada, India South Africa working on drugs for many of the
companies, including Pfizer.

The point of argument here is that you refuted Black with an argument
that you couldn't back, you've been shown the evidence, now move along
to something you can back.

The fact that 10 minutes of research on my part showed your 90% of all
good medical things are american is false. Maybe you should learn that
arguments need facts to back.

Bluntly I don't care about the American medical system, That's for
Americans to worry about. I found your misinformation, however,
offensive and you made those statements based on your nationalistic
hubris.

GK

John Kulp writes:

The self-appointed medical specialist speaks again.

You make it sound as if I'm discussing some exceedingly arcane medical
knowledge, when in fact I'm simply pointing out what any educated person is
likely to know. One hardly need be a "medical specialist" to know and
understand hyperthermia.

So, in this advanced democracy, out of a population of some 63
million people and 185,000 plus doctors can't handle 15,000 people huh?

That's right.

But even if it could, they'd have to find and transport people developing
hyperthermia, and there's no practical way to do that, as it is impossible to
monitor everyone, everywhere, all the time.

They never heard of temporary facilities, like school gyms, etc. to handle
like is done here?

It isn't done very well anywhere else, either. Heat waves tend to be deadly
wherever they occur.

Uh, they could call themselve if they didn't feel well, or their
family, friends or neighbors couldn't?

You may wish to do a bit of research on this. The symptoms of heatstroke are
non-specific and the onset is often insidious. Heatstroke interferes with
cerebration, such that a person suffering from it may well be unaware that
anything is wrong. It can progress very quickly.

Family, friends, and neighbors would not be able to help unless they were
keeping potential victims under continuous surveillance. And they would still
be at risk themselves.

The only way to fix this is through prevention, by keeping the environment
cool enough to prevent hyperthermia from developing in the first place. And
you don't do it with bottles of water or fans ... you do it with
refrigeration.

Same as for any ailment. Gyms, etc. like I said is where you put
them, just like we do. Hotels, etc. Are you so dense you don't
understand that they didn't have air conditioning apparently which is
why they had the problem. So you take them to places with
airconditioning and treat the symptoms, put them in ice baths, and a
whole host of other options.

See above. How do you find the victims?

Sure it does, but in no other developed country has it killed anywhere
near this many people.

The heat wave of 2003 afflicted France far more than any other country, as you
would discover if you actually consulted the numbers for that heat wave.

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 22:10:23 GMT, (John Kulp)
wrote:

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:29:42 GMT, grant kinsley
wrote:

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 18:14:52 GMT, (John Kulp)
wrote:

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 20:13:57 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
wrote:


Notable achievements to be sure, but try coming up with ones closer to
the 21st century which is what I was talking about as I said. Start
with naming 10 new major drugs that have been produced in Europe or
Canada within the last decade or so.

"10 new major drugs"???

What on earth could that mean? Just how can anyone measure by what's
"major"?

Uh, you could start with sales. The major ones sell the most


crappy determinant, how about the drugs that actually produce an
effective change in therapeutic methods. Just because a new birth
control pill becomes more popular because of lining american doctors
pockets does not mean it's a major new drug from any meaningful
perspective to the general population.

Back to bashing are you? Just when you were beginning to be sensible.
There are, of course, lots of ways to measure this and sales IS the
most common. If I had a serious disease, however, my first one would
be the one that effectively treated that disease whether anyone else
bought it or not. That's why the saying "statistics don't lie. Liars
use statistics."


Not bashing, the simple fact is that sales are not a good determinant
of quality, inventiveness or efficacy. Those are the considerations
that really mean something, and for the argument, one should be using
originality. Your own arguments were about innovation.

If you want to measure the impact of drug development, you should use
a standard that actually has an impact on how it impacts patient
health and change in standard of treatment.

The development of simvastatin as the first marketable statin was
important, it had global impact on how we treat and prevent heart
disease, the development of Lipitor and Crestor were simply ways for
other drug companies to cash in. Lipitor selling more than Zocor and
Crestor has everything to do with marketing.

Your argument that 90% of all good medical things are american needs
measurement by a standard that is meaningful in the practice of
medicine and patient outcome, sales aren't it.

FWIW Crestor is better than Lipitor, and is the only statin with
minimal HDL effect, Lipitor is no better than Zocor.

GK

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:31:16 GMT, (John Kulp)
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 01:02:27 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

John Kulp writes:

So now you're a doctor too huh?

One hardly need be a doctor to be familiar with medicine. Anyone can do
research.

Right. Self appointed no less.


No country has some 12 to 13000 people dying from the heat with
an adquate medical system functioning.

Look up some heat waves and you may be surprised. People in glass houses
should not throw stones.

I did. This one had almost 15000 dead as it turns out. 35000 died
overall so France managed to count for almost 43% of the total on its
own. And, as wikipedia states:

"That shortcomings of the nation's health system could allow such a
death toll is a matter of controversy in France. The administration of
President Jacques Chirac and Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin laid
the blame on

* the 35-hour workweek, which affected the amount of time doctors
could work;
* family practitioners vacationing in August (Many companies
traditionally closed in August, so people had no choice about when to
vacation. Family doctors were still in the habit of vacationing at the
same time);
* families who had left their elderly behind without caring for
them;

The opposition as well as many of the editorials of the local press
have blamed the administration. Many blamed Health Minister
Jean-François Mattei for failing to return from his vacation when the
heat wave became serious, and his aides for blocking emergency
measures in public hospitals (such as the recalling of physicians). A
particularly vocal critic was Dr Patrick Pelloux, head of the union of
emergency physicians, who blamed the Raffarin administration for
ignoring warnings from health and emergency professionals and trying
to minimize the crisis.

Mattei lost his ministerial post in a cabinet reshuffle on 31 March
2004."

I think you should be wary of the arguments you are trying to make,
first heat related deaths are often miscategorized and undercounted
everywhere. As well in the above heat wave you should know that temps
of 104 degrees were recorded and stayed high for greater than two
weeks. The highest maintained temperatures were in France. Britain
recorded their first triple digit temperatures at the same time.

These areas were subjected to extremes of heat that were unusual for
the area. In the cities, where most heat related deaths occur, living
accomodations often maintain high temperatures for long period due to
decreased wind, and in areas such as Paris, buildings often have black
roofs that absorb heat.

Treating heat stroke is extremely diificult if the temperature is
above 98.6 as the body absorbs heat at this point rather than
radiating it, as well, heat must be radiated from mammalian organisms
as heat is produced by basic metabolic functions.

Simply slapping someone in a hospital for a few hours for hyperthermia
won't help, re-exposure to the heat would cause relapse of the
condition as soon as the patients body temperature rose to supernormal
levels.

Remember as well, that many many heat related deaths are also not
simply hyperthermia. High heat levels can quickly kill anyone with
chronic respiratory conditions due to inversions/lack of air
circulation/static pollution. Those final conditions become worse in
humid conditions.

As for other heat related episodes, you might want to refrain from
slamming other countries when the U.S. has shown that large number of
people die in single U.S. cities due to heat waves.

"Several of the worst heat waves of the twentieth century occurred in
U.S. cities. In 1955, an eight-day run of temperatures over 100
degrees Fahrenheit in Los Angeles left 946 people dead. In 1972, New
York City suffered a two-week heat wave that claimed 891 lives. More
recently, an extreme heat wave in Chicago in 1995 killed 739 people in
a matter of days. Slow political recognition of the threat and an
overloaded response system worsened the effects of the weather
anomaly."

Chicago has about 3 million, Europe has about 725 million, France
about 64 million

739/3million is about .02% of total population
35000/727million is about .004% of the population
14800/64million is about .02% of the population.

It doesn't look the US has any better record on treating heat related
deaths.

GK

I would say that

As far as crisis situations go

"John Kulp" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:30:50 +1000, "dechucka"
wrote:


"John Kulp" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 11:24:17 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
wrote:

Make credence recognised that on Sat, 11 Aug 2007 18:22:17 GMT,
(John Kulp) has scripted:

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 20:25:46 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
wrote:

Yes, I could point out the numerous things that the USA has acquired
from the outside world, but from experience that is a complete waste
of time, because Americans are too damn proud to accept that America
is just another country, like every other.

If you can, why don't you babbler? And I have no problem accepting
that America is just another country. I would just love to leave you
cretins on you own to solve your own problems. Like Bosnia. Did a
great job there without us didn't you? How many got slaughtered there
again?

I can't believe you had to resort to that.

Actually I can, which is why I didn't feel like engaging in a sensible
debate in the first place.

Because you can't, of course. Proud of the fact that Europe sat on
its hands for something like 12 years before we stepped in and ended.
See also, Hitler, Moussilini, etc. etc.

I think you will find that the US sat on its hands when Hitler and
Mussolini
were threatening Europe



Oh that's right. I forgot that the hundreds of thousands of US killed
and wounded happened in the US and would later shipped over to be put
in graves in France and elsewhere. That's right. That's what
happened.

Hitler invaded Poland in what year? The Americans joined the war in Europe
in what year and why? I think you will find there is a gap of a couple of
years between those dates.

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 19:55:55 GMT, grant kinsley
wrote:

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 22:07:34 GMT, (John Kulp)
wrote:

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:27:13 GMT, grant kinsley
wrote:


Just an important one for me is Novo Nordisk in Denmark. One of the
world leaders in recombinant DNA produced proteins, they not only
produce a variety of human analogue insulins, but also recombinant
factor VII for hemophiliacs, Norditropin, a synthetic human growth
hormone and are currently testing for a variety of anti-tumour
proteins.

Thats a quick sample of what the rest of the world is doing, took me
about 10 minutes to find that and certainly represents a nice slice of
the many things that worldwide labs, both large and small are doing.

Well good for you. You have done your research. I won't go into how
Pfizer is the largest in the world, has the largest selling drug in
Lipitor, etc. etc. It is true that these companies developed those
you cite, but the question is where not who. Most if not all of these
countries have major facilities in the US where a lot of r and d is
done and they do a lot together with other companies. A lot of the
research is also done in universities, not companies in any case and
licensed to the companies. In any case, as I stated before, I have no
problem acknowledging that this is a global interconnected business.
I was simply refuting Black's nonsense about the US having a ghastly
system. You at least answer intelligently which is appreciated. Much
better than the others who just babble and ignore the very real faults
of their systems.


the largest selling company doesn't provide 90% of the development.

How do you know who does 90% of the development.


If you want to talk aboput where development takes, it is all over the
world with studies in many many countries, so your whining on that
front doesn't hold up. There are university sites throughout western
Europe, Canada, India South Africa working on drugs for many of the
companies, including Pfizer.

True, but this doesn't tell anything about how much of the development
is done where does it? It just says that development is being
undertaken in lots of different places.


The point of argument here is that you refuted Black with an argument
that you couldn't back, you've been shown the evidence, now move along
to something you can back.

You haven't done anything but list a bunch of different drugs.
Nothing more. I never said non-US drug companies didn't do
development. I said that the article I read said that 90% (at the
point the article was written) was done in the US. Period. And you
have no idea where that list of drugs you came up with were developed
do you? For all you know, they may have been developed in the US.


The fact that 10 minutes of research on my part showed your 90% of all
good medical things are american is false. Maybe you should learn that
arguments need facts to back.

Which, of course, is a complete distortion of what I said, which
referred only to drug development and, as I said, you proved no such
thing. You have no clue where those drugs you listed were developed,
as I said. You only showed who sells them after they are developed
and who owns their rights to do so. Nothing more.


Bluntly I don't care about the American medical system, That's for
Americans to worry about. I found your misinformation, however,
offensive and you made those statements based on your nationalistic
hubris.

And you are full of ****, because I did no such thing but you're
making a great attempt here of doing that yourself aren't you?
Crowing about a list of drugs owned and marketed by non-US companies
that you have no clue where they were developed.

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:01:04 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

John Kulp writes:

The self-appointed medical specialist speaks again.

You make it sound as if I'm discussing some exceedingly arcane medical
knowledge, when in fact I'm simply pointing out what any educated person is
likely to know. One hardly need be a "medical specialist" to know and
understand hyperthermia.

Me, I'll take the medical specialists who actually know what they
doing and talking about.


So, in this advanced democracy, out of a population of some 63
million people and 185,000 plus doctors can't handle 15,000 people huh?

That's right.

If you say so. Then it's a world class crappy system not supposedly
the world's finest as the WHO thinks. Can't even handle an
infitesimal percentage of the population. World class that.


But even if it could, they'd have to find and transport people developing
hyperthermia, and there's no practical way to do that, as it is impossible to
monitor everyone, everywhere, all the time.

Gee, can even transport about 1/3 of the people that go to a football
game spread out all over France.


They never heard of temporary facilities, like school gyms, etc. to handle
like is done here?

It isn't done very well anywhere else, either. Heat waves tend to be deadly
wherever they occur.

Complete bull**** as usual. It's done all the time in emergencies
here. But I guess in our dismal system (see Black) we plan for
various emergencies in advance (excepting the Bushies, of course, who
couldn't organize a Boy Scout reunion).


Uh, they could call themselve if they didn't feel well, or their
family, friends or neighbors couldn't?

You may wish to do a bit of research on this. The symptoms of heatstroke are
non-specific and the onset is often insidious. Heatstroke interferes with
cerebration, such that a person suffering from it may well be unaware that
anything is wrong. It can progress very quickly.

Hmm, you must be suffering from it now. As wikipedia says "Heat
prostration, or heat exhaustion, is characterized by mental confusion,
muscle cramps, and often nausea or vomiting. At this stage the victim
will likely be sweating profusely. With continued exposure to ambient
heat, which sometimes is facilitated by the mental confusion,
temperature may rise into the 39 to 40 °C range (103 to 104 °F), and
lead to full-blown heat stroke."

Yeah, these are all symptons that wouldn't lead someone to think
something is seriously wrong alright.


Family, friends, and neighbors would not be able to help unless they were
keeping potential victims under continuous surveillance. And they would still
be at risk themselves.

Ah bull****. Anyone with half a brain would recognize that something
serious was likely wrong. And call for medical help (except you, the
self-appointed expert who would let them die while you're screwing
around). No one needs to know what is wrong with a person like this.
It's obvious it's something serious that they should call for medical
help for. Of course, that was all on vacation so calling wouldn't
have done a thing, which was the real issue.


The only way to fix this is through prevention, by keeping the environment
cool enough to prevent hyperthermia from developing in the first place. And
you don't do it with bottles of water or fans ... you do it with
refrigeration.

Bull****. You could put someone in a tub with ice. Pure and simple.
But anyone with a brain would quickly call for medical help, but that
would exempt you.


Same as for any ailment. Gyms, etc. like I said is where you put
them, just like we do. Hotels, etc. Are you so dense you don't
understand that they didn't have air conditioning apparently which is
why they had the problem. So you take them to places with
airconditioning and treat the symptoms, put them in ice baths, and a
whole host of other options.

See above. How do you find the victims?

So 15,000 people were all hiding? Right. That's why the health
minister got canned, the government blamed the 35 hour work week, etc.
Because they were all really hiding. Then why was there any blame at
all? If they were hiding, it wouldn't have mattered where the doctors
were there, there was airconditioning or whatever.


Sure it does, but in no other developed country has it killed anywhere
near this many people.

The heat wave of 2003 afflicted France far more than any other country, as you
would discover if you actually consulted the numbers for that heat wave.

I did braindead. Here it is. The reason it afflicted France more
than anyone else, in terms of number dead, was complete incompetence.
Here is other European areas having the same heat problem:

"United Kingdom

In the UK, a record-breaking 38.5 °C (101.4 °F) was recorded in
Brogdale Orchards, one mile southwest of Faversham, Kent on Sunday, 10
August 2003. The previous highest recorded temperature was 37.1 °C
(98.8 °F), recorded in Cheltenham. [3]

A retrospective analysis published in 2005 showed that the heat wave
caused 2,139 excess deaths in the UK for the period 4 to 13 August
2003.[4]

Italy

Nearly 3,000 people died in Italy,[5] where temperatures varied
between 38 and 40 degrees Celsius in most cities for weeks, according
to eurosurveillance.org.[citation needed] Other sources reported a
much lower figure, not only for Italy but for other countries as well.
New Scientist magazine reported 4,200 deaths in Italy and Spain
attributable to the 2003 heatwave.[6] The Guardian reported 1,000
deaths in Italy, 4,000 in Spain.[7]

Portugal

There were extensive forest fires in Portugal. Five percent of the
countryside and ten percent of the forests were destroyed, an
estimated 4,000 km². Eighteen people died in the fires. Temperatures
reached as high as 47.3 °C in Amareleja. [8][9]

Spain

There were 141 deaths in the country. Temperature records were broken
in various cities including Jerez 45.1 °C,[citation needed] Badajoz
45.0 °C,[citation needed] Huelva 43.4 °C,[citation needed] Gerona 41
°C,[10] Burgos 38.8 °C,[citation needed] San Sebastián 38.6
°C,[citation needed] Pontevedra 36 °C,[11] and Barcelona 36 °C.[12] In
other cities of southern Spain, record temperatures were not recorded
but the temperatures were higher than 40 °C: Murcia 41.8 °C,[citation
needed] Toledo 42.0 °C,[citation needed] Cordoba, 46.2 °C[citation
needed], and in Sevilla, it was 47 °C.[13]

Germany

In Germany, a record temperature of 40.4 Celsius (104.7 Fahrenheit)
was recorded at Roth bei Nürnberg, Bavaria.[citation needed] With only
half the normal rainfall, rivers were at their lowest this
century,[citation needed] and shipping could not navigate the Elbe or
Danube. Around 7,000 people (mostly elderly) died during the 2003
heatwave in Germany.

Switzerland

Melting glaciers in the Alps caused avalanches and flash floods in
Switzerland. A new nationwide record temperature of 41.5 Celsius
(106.7 °F) was recorded in Grono, Graubünden.[14]

I guess the heat didn't stop at the border, did it?