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#11
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Brave move?
In article , Old Sarge
wrote: The major problem with the Concordia is one that is plagued by all ships, not necessarily cruise ships. When a ship lists to one side, the degree has an effect on lifeboat deployment and in this case the list went quickly and the lifeboats were stuck on board. HOWEVER, even if they had had a drill prior to departure, I doubt it would have helped as there was mass confusion. They also have the life rafts that can be used if the lifeboats can not be dropped. I think the major problem with the evacuation on Concordia was that it was delayed. -- Charles |
#12
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Brave move?
In article ,
Charles wrote: In article , Old Sarge wrote: The major problem with the Concordia is one that is plagued by all ships, not necessarily cruise ships. When a ship lists to one side, the degree has an effect on lifeboat deployment and in this case the list went quickly and the lifeboats were stuck on board. HOWEVER, even if they had had a drill prior to departure, I doubt it would have helped as there was mass confusion. They also have the life rafts that can be used if the lifeboats can not be dropped. I think the major problem with the evacuation on Concordia was that it was delayed. And this one was close enough to the shore that they could used the lifeboats as shuttles so even if 1/2 weren't deploable, the others could have taken up the slack if implemented early enough.. -- People thought cybersex was a safe alternative, until patients started presenting with sexually acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz |
#13
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Brave move?
On Jan 30, 8:41*pm, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article , *Charles wrote: In article , Old Sarge wrote: The major problem with the Concordia is one that is plagued by all ships, not necessarily cruise ships. *When a ship lists to one side, the degree has an effect on lifeboat deployment and in this case the list went quickly and the lifeboats were stuck on board. *HOWEVER, even if they had had a drill prior to departure, I doubt it would have helped as there was mass confusion. When the pax want to get off but the crew is saying "go back to your cabins", your problems are bigger than merely a failure of crowd control: the mass confusion was ultimately caused by a failure of leadership to make the appropriate decisions in a timely fashion. They also have the life rafts that can be used if the lifeboats can not be dropped. I think the major problem with the evacuation on Concordia was that it was delayed. That was part of it. The other part was that those same safety systems weren't able to recover (to be deployed as had been planned) to compensate. This is a failure of robust system planning, which permits failures to cascade from bad to worse. For example, let's say that you did have life rafts that could be tossed overboard after the lifeboats got hung up ... now what? Are pax expected to then make a 50ft jump into the sea, then swim over to get in the liferaft? Or are you going to risk having pax down near the waterline on the "downhill" side as the ship is rolling over in that direction? Neither option seems all that appealing when their blunt realities are revealed. And this one was close enough to the shore that they could used the lifeboats as shuttles so even if 1/2 weren't deploable, the others could have taken up the slack if * implemented early enough.. True, but that was more by luck than by design. If shuttling did occur (sorry, I haven't personally read every detail), part of the question that would be quite revealing would be - - "As initiated by who?". Specifically, the point here is who was it that took leadership in that phase of the rescue operation? And clearly, this is big negative points if it wasn't initiated by the ship's officers. -hh |
#14
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Brave move?
"-hh" wrote in message ... On Jan 30, 12:46 pm, "Island Grampa" wrote: YMMV. Given that this wasn't the first large cruise ship to sink within the past decade, what's IMO conspicuously absent from any of the responses is any discussion of the consequences of a list (lifeboat deployment failure modes). -hh Please, name me even ONE large cruise ship that has "sunk" in the last decade. There was one small cruise ship off South Africa several years ago but, other than that, I don't think there has even been a total evacuation of any ship. The South African one was the one I was primarily thinking of, but there was also the MS Explorer which sank off of Antartica in November 2007. Here's a website that has a list: http://www.cruisejunkie.com/Sunk.html Plus there's been other adverse events on smaller cruiseships too that aren't on this list that I've personally been aware of: 2008 - CruiseWest "Spirit of Glacier Bay" - grounding in AK (no casualties) 2007 - CruiseWest "Spirit of Nantucket" - grounding in VA (no casualties) and this one in particular, as I know one of the three survivors: Oct 2001 - Peter Hughes "Wave Dancer" - capsize/sink: 71% onboard died FYI, the distribution of the deaths were 85% of the customers (17 of 20) and 37% of the crew (3 of 8). -hh All small ships! You said "Given that this wasn't the first large cruise ship to sink within the past decade" -- Tobieon an Island in the Pacific |
#15
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Brave move?
On Jan 31, 12:34*pm, "Island Grampa" wrote:
"-hh" wrote in message On Jan 30, 12:46 pm, "Island Grampa" wrote: YMMV. *Given that this wasn't the first large cruise ship to sink within the past decade, what's IMO conspicuously absent from any of the responses is any discussion of the consequences of a list (lifeboat deployment failure modes). Please, name me even ONE large cruise ship that has "sunk" in the last decade. *There was one small cruise ship off South Africa several years ago but, other than that, I don't think there has even been a total evacuation of any ship. The South African one was the one I was primarily thinking of, but there was also the MS Explorer which sank off of Antartica in November 2007. Here's a website that has a list: http://www.cruisejunkie.com/Sunk.html Plus there's been other adverse events on smaller cruiseships too that aren't on this list that I've personally been aware of: 2008 - CruiseWest "Spirit of Glacier Bay" - grounding in AK (no casualties) 2007 - CruiseWest "Spirit of Nantucket" * - grounding in VA (no casualties) and this one in particular, as I know one of the three survivors: Oct 2001 - Peter Hughes "Wave Dancer" - capsize/sink: * 71% onboard died FYI, the distribution of the deaths were 85% of the customers (17 of 20) and 37% of the crew (3 of 8). All small ships! YMMV, but as far as I'm personally concerned, small is 100 pax. And in the meantime, "Large" comes in many flavors, which have prompted additional descriptors, such as megaliner and superliner ... and even "super megaliner" has popped up as YA descriptive superlative: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n32005527/ Its because cruise ships have continued to grow. If we look at Wiki (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...t_cruise_ships ) we find that ~90% of the world's largest cruise ships in operation on 12/31/11 have launched since 1/1/2000. So something that a decade ago might have been considered "large" or even "huge" by the standards of the day no longer necessarily is considered as such by today's standards. You said "Given that this wasn't the first large cruise ship to sink within the past decade" Yes, I certainly did. Granted, the MS Explorer (sank in Antartica in 2007) isn't a "large" cruise ship by the standards of the behemoths that ply the Caribbean, that ignores the market segment it was in, where most of that market are ships that are 300ft LOA. And while the sinking of the Oceanos sinking off of South Africa was pedantially more than just ten years ago, it still does prove that even ships with 500+ pax aren't magically immune from sinking. And to look at this in one more dimension, feel free to illustrate specifically how simply being bigger makes a ship easier to evacuate safely. Be sure to account for differences in crew:customer ratios, increased number of decks to police, loose items, etc. -hh |
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