Travelling to Rio

Tell us how you really feel?
"Kurko" wrote in message
news
Hello!

Excuse me, but by all means who is such a stupid **** to walk during the
night in any major
city in the world.

Actually these "thugs" should've removed you from the genepool.


Kurko

On 7 Mar 2004 18:10:33 -0800, P E T E R P A N
wrote:

Dear JohnM,

For one thing, the entire incident happened very quickly, in a matter
of 1 or 2 minutes. I was in fear for my life and I did not have a lot
of time or in position to think of all alternative courses of actions.
I just acted instinctively. This was the first time I faced potential
violence in some 30 years. I was never in more fear, even in downtown
Los Angeles, San Francisco or New York City at night! The local
Brazilians all think I was very lucky to escape death or serious
injuries that night!

You could have suggested precautions or solutions, rather than trying
to pick holes in my story, which just shows that you are not
sympathetic to a lone tourist in distress, but are probably siding
with the thugs, victimizing unsuspecting preys! I do not believe you
have good, unselfish motivations in this case!

When the initial thug confronted me, I had walked past the café a few
houses. The customers were sitting inside the cafe due to the rain. I
was roughly past the Hotel Mirasol with its large glass front across
the street. When I glanced other thugs running toward me from other
corners, a vision of my lifeless body lying in a pool of blood was
very clear in my head! Instinctlively I felt back tracking towards
the café would put me closer to the incoming thugs. I pulled the first
thug out to the middle of the street, roughly in front of the hotel
Mirasol, and screamed "HELP, HELP, HELP." but there were no response
from anyone, anywhere. In a matter of seconds, I decided that "
POLICIA ." may work better and immediately started bellowing. I had
to make quick decisions and ran fast basically to save my own life. I
saw running cars with head lights on Rebata Reveiro and I quickly ran
towards them.

When I rethink the whole incident, the closest hotel would have been
the Mirasol, which would have staff in the lobby. But I am not sure
if they would bother to open their door to assist a tourist in
distress. The Copacabana Hotel Residencia was definitely not
interested in helping or taking any actions. The police also acted
very casually, as if they ran into these violent incidents many times
everyday. Despite the warm personality of the policemen and their
willingness to help, I had reservations that they could be effective
after dealing with them. I had my distrust then, and I declined to
get into their patrol cars for the search or to return to the hotel!

A number of people, presumably with more experience in Brazil, have
since written me private emails suggesting I skip Brazil. I found,
through my own experience, some serious flaws of characters in the
Brazilian people in Rio, such as the couple guys I found the first day
who would pee openly on the streets in broad day light, sometimes on
someone else cars' doors, right on very busy streets like Rebata
Reveiro or Copacabana. Every street in Copacabana stinks of urine and
fresh sewage! These are bad things that happened in the best parts of
Rio, not in the favela, where the impoverished residents may deserve
excuses for their uncivil actions. I also found some disturbingly bad
attitudes among various young, old, educated and wealthy Brazilians in
Rio, Sao Paolo etc. which I will write down when I have time.

My opinions of Brazil and her people, after much reviews of the
events, facts and rationalizations, to be honest, very low. I do not
stand to gain or lose anything by posting my information and opinions
on Brazil. I do it only to inform fellow travelers. I advised a new
friend in Rio, a pretty girl from Spain, against walking in the rain
at night in Rio which she felt was romantic! A number of people
emailed me suggesting not walking in Rio at all!

Your attitude helps convince me firmly that Brazil is not on top of
the list of countries I want to visit!


JohnM wrote in message
...
In article , P E T E R
P A N writes

-- snip snip --

I had gotten out of the internet store late at night and stopped to
buy cigarettes at a small coffee shop next door, which still had a
dozen people, customers and waiters. As I walked out of the shop, I
stopped on the sidewalk to lit a cigarette. That was when this dark,
scruffy guy, wearing a white shirt, came out of nowhere, talking to me
in Portugeese. I thought he wanted a cigarette so I offered him the
pack. He ignored my offer, kept talking firmly and threateiningly in
Portugeeze, repeating the phrase "No problem...". I moved out to the
street. He blocked my way, grabbing and holding my shirt firmly with
both hands. I pulled away, he refused to let go. At the same time,
out of the corner of my eyes, I saw a few other guys running toward us
from the dark street corners. The street was dark, wet and deserted.
Suddenly there was noone on the street but the thugs.

-- snip snip --

Erm, continuity problem there, as my editor might say. Was the street
wet, dark and deserted, despite the coffee-shop you had just walked out
of with its dozen people inside? Why didn't you just walk back in if
the
guy attacked you 'as you walked out'?




--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

I can sympathize with your experience. Being threatened or robbed or
assaulted in a country one is travelling in is always very unsettling
and can leave one with negative feelings about a country. Ignore the
ignorant comments from whoever it is.

But I still think it is important to not colour a whole nation by your
experiences. Some places have more crime than others but crime can
happen to anyone anywhere.

My family and I have travelled a lot in many parts of the world. The
only bad experiences we have had have been in Amsterdam, Panama City,
and Copan, Honduras (we were only witnesses here, not personally
threatened) And yet, overall, the experiences in those countries were
still favourable on balance. I can't blame all the Dutch or all the
Panamanians.

It is important to deal with the feelings of fear, anger and violation
after being assaulted like that and to overcome the negative feeling so
you can go on to experience other travels feeling cautious and alert but
not paranoid.

P E T E R P A N wrote:
I walked many cities at night, including LA, San Francisco, New York,
Miami, London, Paris, Rome, Tokyo, Seoul, Bangkok, Singapore, Kuala
Lumpur, Denpasar, Jakarta, Buenos Aires, Montevideo ... without any
problems!

It is the stupid, nasty *sshole like you and dumb thugs, thieves,
robbers and the savages, who would p*ss on sidewalks and someone else'
cars on the busy streets of Rio in broad day light, who should be
removed from the gene pool! Stupid, ignorant nasty trash like you are
a shame and a grave threat for all mankind!

As everyone can see, this nasty guy Kurko confirms that Brazil is a
very unsafe, lawless place, populated by a lot of dumb savages like
himself. Visitors to Brazil, Rio and Sao Paolo, have a very high
probability of getting robbed or beaten. Don't expect local people to
help when you need it!


Kurko wrote in message ...

Hello!

Excuse me, but by all means who is such a stupid **** to walk during the
night in any major
city in the world.

Actually these "thugs" should've removed you from the genepool.


Kurko

On 7 Mar 2004 18:10:33 -0800, P E T E R P A N
wrote:


Dear JohnM,

For one thing, the entire incident happened very quickly, in a matter
of 1 or 2 minutes. I was in fear for my life and I did not have a lot
of time or in position to think of all alternative courses of actions.
I just acted instinctively. This was the first time I faced potential
violence in some 30 years. I was never in more fear, even in downtown
Los Angeles, San Francisco or New York City at night! The local
Brazilians all think I was very lucky to escape death or serious
injuries that night!

You could have suggested precautions or solutions, rather than trying
to pick holes in my story, which just shows that you are not
sympathetic to a lone tourist in distress, but are probably siding
with the thugs, victimizing unsuspecting preys! I do not believe you
have good, unselfish motivations in this case!

When the initial thug confronted me, I had walked past the café a few
houses. The customers were sitting inside the cafe due to the rain. I
was roughly past the Hotel Mirasol with its large glass front across
the street. When I glanced other thugs running toward me from other
corners, a vision of my lifeless body lying in a pool of blood was
very clear in my head! Instinctlively I felt back tracking towards
the café would put me closer to the incoming thugs. I pulled the first
thug out to the middle of the street, roughly in front of the hotel
Mirasol, and screamed "HELP, HELP, HELP…" but there were no response
from anyone, anywhere. In a matter of seconds, I decided that "
POLICIA …" may work better and immediately started bellowing. I had
to make quick decisions and ran fast basically to save my own life. I
saw running cars with head lights on Rebata Reveiro and I quickly ran
towards them.

When I rethink the whole incident, the closest hotel would have been
the Mirasol, which would have staff in the lobby. But I am not sure
if they would bother to open their door to assist a tourist in
distress. The Copacabana Hotel Residencia was definitely not
interested in helping or taking any actions. The police also acted
very casually, as if they ran into these violent incidents many times
everyday. Despite the warm personality of the policemen and their
willingness to help, I had reservations that they could be effective
after dealing with them. I had my distrust then, and I declined to
get into their patrol cars for the search or to return to the hotel!

A number of people, presumably with more experience in Brazil, have
since written me private emails suggesting I skip Brazil. I found,
through my own experience, some serious flaws of characters in the
Brazilian people in Rio, such as the couple guys I found the first day
who would pee openly on the streets in broad day light, sometimes on
someone else cars' doors, right on very busy streets like Rebata
Reveiro or Copacabana. Every street in Copacabana stinks of urine and
fresh sewage! These are bad things that happened in the best parts of
Rio, not in the favela, where the impoverished residents may deserve
excuses for their uncivil actions. I also found some disturbingly bad
attitudes among various young, old, educated and wealthy Brazilians in
Rio, Sao Paolo etc… which I will write down when I have time.

My opinions of Brazil and her people, after much reviews of the
events, facts and rationalizations, to be honest, very low. I do not
stand to gain or lose anything by posting my information and opinions
on Brazil. I do it only to inform fellow travelers. I advised a new
friend in Rio, a pretty girl from Spain, against walking in the rain
at night in Rio which she felt was romantic! A number of people
emailed me suggesting not walking in Rio at all!

Your attitude helps convince me firmly that Brazil is not on top of
the list of countries I want to visit!


JohnM wrote in message
...

In article , P E T E R
P A N writes

-- snip snip --


I had gotten out of the internet store late at night and stopped to
buy cigarettes at a small coffee shop next door, which still had a
dozen people, customers and waiters. As I walked out of the shop, I
stopped on the sidewalk to lit a cigarette. That was when this dark,
scruffy guy, wearing a white shirt, came out of nowhere, talking to me
in Portugeese. I thought he wanted a cigarette so I offered him the
pack. He ignored my offer, kept talking firmly and threateiningly in
Portugeeze, repeating the phrase "No problem...". I moved out to the
street. He blocked my way, grabbing and holding my shirt firmly with
both hands. I pulled away, he refused to let go. At the same time,
out of the corner of my eyes, I saw a few other guys running toward us

from the dark street corners. The street was dark, wet and deserted.

Suddenly there was noone on the street but the thugs.

-- snip snip --

Erm, continuity problem there, as my editor might say. Was the street
wet, dark and deserted, despite the coffee-shop you had just walked out
of with its dozen people inside? Why didn't you just walk back in if the
guy attacked you 'as you walked out'?

Oh really!

Well I think that you've just been lucky, because that kind of behavior is
just plain dumb.

What do you think the local people feel when they see someone being robbed?
They're simply
as afraid as the one who is under attack. In every ****in' guide I've seen
about Rio it says
that DO NOT WALK during the night. I've lived there over a year without amy
problems, because
I used a TAXI after sunset. During the day Rio is probably the most
beautiful city, and no
problems.

It just makes me mad when whining litte wimps, who are looking for trouble,
come here and
start blaiming others on their own stupidity.

Unfortunately Rio has ****loads of Favelas, in which ther are all kinds of
criminals.
The problem of favelas is the fact that most of the people living there are
just poor
hardworking people, only a small amount of recidents of the favelas are
these criminals.
Its true that these druglords are true leaders of these favelas, but
cleaning them is quite difficult. This results as one of highest crimerates
in the world. Police in Rio wont do anything
bercause they can't do enything. Do you really beleive they can find
anybody with vague description you may be able to give them? The robbers
were back in their favela long
before you even encountered the police.

Anyway, its just fine that you hate Rio, actually its excellent, because
Rio and
brasilians do not need a single loud and arrogant Americans to abuse their
country and people. Its so saddening to see how these GRINGOS go to country
like Brasil
and behave like they own the ****in' place. I wish that Brasil would take
in use a
test of intelligence for the tourists coming from USA. I bet that 90% would
fail.

Kurko

On 9 Mar 2004 08:34:16 -0800, P E T E R P A N
wrote:

I walked many cities at night, including LA, San Francisco, New York,
Miami, London, Paris, Rome, Tokyo, Seoul, Bangkok, Singapore, Kuala
Lumpur, Denpasar, Jakarta, Buenos Aires, Montevideo ... without any
problems!

It is the stupid, nasty *sshole like you and dumb thugs, thieves,
robbers and the savages, who would p*ss on sidewalks and someone else'
cars on the busy streets of Rio in broad day light, who should be
removed from the gene pool! Stupid, ignorant nasty trash like you are
a shame and a grave threat for all mankind!

As everyone can see, this nasty guy Kurko confirms that Brazil is a
very unsafe, lawless place, populated by a lot of dumb savages like
himself. Visitors to Brazil, Rio and Sao Paolo, have a very high
probability of getting robbed or beaten. Don't expect local people to
help when you need it!


Kurko wrote in message
...
Hello!

Excuse me, but by all means who is such a stupid **** to walk during the
night in any major
city in the world.

Actually these "thugs" should've removed you from the genepool.


Kurko

On 7 Mar 2004 18:10:33 -0800, P E T E R P A N
wrote:

Dear JohnM,

For one thing, the entire incident happened very quickly, in a matter
of 1 or 2 minutes. I was in fear for my life and I did not have a lot
of time or in position to think of all alternative courses of actions.
I just acted instinctively. This was the first time I faced potential
violence in some 30 years. I was never in more fear, even in downtown
Los Angeles, San Francisco or New York City at night! The local
Brazilians all think I was very lucky to escape death or serious
injuries that night!

You could have suggested precautions or solutions, rather than trying
to pick holes in my story, which just shows that you are not
sympathetic to a lone tourist in distress, but are probably siding
with the thugs, victimizing unsuspecting preys! I do not believe you
have good, unselfish motivations in this case!

When the initial thug confronted me, I had walked past the café a few
houses. The customers were sitting inside the cafe due to the rain. I
was roughly past the Hotel Mirasol with its large glass front across
the street. When I glanced other thugs running toward me from other
corners, a vision of my lifeless body lying in a pool of blood was
very clear in my head! Instinctlively I felt back tracking towards
the café would put me closer to the incoming thugs. I pulled the first
thug out to the middle of the street, roughly in front of the hotel
Mirasol, and screamed "HELP, HELP, HELP…" but there were no response
from anyone, anywhere. In a matter of seconds, I decided that "
POLICIA …" may work better and immediately started bellowing. I had
to make quick decisions and ran fast basically to save my own life. I
saw running cars with head lights on Rebata Reveiro and I quickly ran
towards them.

When I rethink the whole incident, the closest hotel would have been
the Mirasol, which would have staff in the lobby. But I am not sure
if they would bother to open their door to assist a tourist in
distress. The Copacabana Hotel Residencia was definitely not
interested in helping or taking any actions. The police also acted
very casually, as if they ran into these violent incidents many times
everyday. Despite the warm personality of the policemen and their
willingness to help, I had reservations that they could be effective
after dealing with them. I had my distrust then, and I declined to
get into their patrol cars for the search or to return to the hotel!

A number of people, presumably with more experience in Brazil, have
since written me private emails suggesting I skip Brazil. I found,
through my own experience, some serious flaws of characters in the
Brazilian people in Rio, such as the couple guys I found the first day
who would pee openly on the streets in broad day light, sometimes on
someone else cars' doors, right on very busy streets like Rebata
Reveiro or Copacabana. Every street in Copacabana stinks of urine and
fresh sewage! These are bad things that happened in the best parts of
Rio, not in the favela, where the impoverished residents may deserve
excuses for their uncivil actions. I also found some disturbingly bad
attitudes among various young, old, educated and wealthy Brazilians in
Rio, Sao Paolo etc… which I will write down when I have time.

My opinions of Brazil and her people, after much reviews of the
events, facts and rationalizations, to be honest, very low. I do not
stand to gain or lose anything by posting my information and opinions
on Brazil. I do it only to inform fellow travelers. I advised a new
friend in Rio, a pretty girl from Spain, against walking in the rain
at night in Rio which she felt was romantic! A number of people
emailed me suggesting not walking in Rio at all!

Your attitude helps convince me firmly that Brazil is not on top of
the list of countries I want to visit!


JohnM wrote in message
...
In article , P E T E
R
P A N writes

-- snip snip --

I had gotten out of the internet store late at night and stopped to
buy cigarettes at a small coffee shop next door, which still had a
dozen people, customers and waiters. As I walked out of the shop, I
stopped on the sidewalk to lit a cigarette. That was when this
dark,
scruffy guy, wearing a white shirt, came out of nowhere, talking to
me
in Portugeese. I thought he wanted a cigarette so I offered him the
pack. He ignored my offer, kept talking firmly and threateiningly in
Portugeeze, repeating the phrase "No problem...". I moved out to the
street. He blocked my way, grabbing and holding my shirt firmly
with
both hands. I pulled away, he refused to let go. At the same time,
out of the corner of my eyes, I saw a few other guys running toward
us
from the dark street corners. The street was dark, wet and deserted.
Suddenly there was noone on the street but the thugs.

-- snip snip --

Erm, continuity problem there, as my editor might say. Was the street
wet, dark and deserted, despite the coffee-shop you had just walked
out
of with its dozen people inside? Why didn't you just walk back in if
the
guy attacked you 'as you walked out'?





--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Peterpan,

you've seen a lot of crosstalk showing you the fact from basically two
different points of view, both were im my first post. Don't let some
harsh posts from some scb participants upset you. For some of them the
points I summarize below are so obvious that they are upset to find
somenone that ignores them.

First, don't walk after dark in any big city, unless you're looking
for trouble. It may be a valid advice even in your home town. Big
cities are, and have always been, a hideout for criminals because it's
the best place to be anonymous. Nighttime, again, is favourable to
such people. It seems you're kind of romantic and like to walk alone
at night, when everything looks different. But be realistic: it's not
wise to do it in big cities, dark and empty streets. That's what Kurko
meant whith "Actually these "thugs" should've removed you from the
genepool". The thugs were a lot wiser than you. They were exploring
"their" area as the spider inspects its net, and they are never alone.
You're very lucky. When I saw the list of cities where you walked by
at night I was astonished. For your information, I avoid Barata
Ribeiro (and many other places) at night, even by car.

Second, don't generalize, mainly when you're extending to a whole
country the impressions you've got from a big city at night. It's not
wise, again.

Brazil (and other countries as well) have thousands of fine places to
go and have big fun. Why do people insist in big cities, that look
almost the same all over the world. But if you really want to go,
don't forget the first paragraph.


(P E T E R P A N) wrote in message m...
I walked many cities at night, including LA, San Francisco, New York,
Miami, London, Paris, Rome, Tokyo, Seoul, Bangkok, Singapore, Kuala
Lumpur, Denpasar, Jakarta, Buenos Aires, Montevideo ... without any
problems!

It is the stupid, nasty *sshole like you and dumb thugs, thieves,
robbers and the savages, who would p*ss on sidewalks and someone else'
cars on the busy streets of Rio in broad day light, who should be
removed from the gene pool! Stupid, ignorant nasty trash like you are
a shame and a grave threat for all mankind!

As everyone can see, this nasty guy Kurko confirms that Brazil is a
very unsafe, lawless place, populated by a lot of dumb savages like
himself. Visitors to Brazil, Rio and Sao Paolo, have a very high
probability of getting robbed or beaten. Don't expect local people to
help when you need it!


Kurko wrote in message ...
Hello!

Excuse me, but by all means who is such a stupid **** to walk during the
night in any major
city in the world.

Actually these "thugs" should've removed you from the genepool.


Kurko

On 7 Mar 2004 18:10:33 -0800, P E T E R P A N
wrote:

Dear JohnM,

For one thing, the entire incident happened very quickly, in a matter
of 1 or 2 minutes. I was in fear for my life and I did not have a lot
of time or in position to think of all alternative courses of actions.
I just acted instinctively. This was the first time I faced potential
violence in some 30 years. I was never in more fear, even in downtown
Los Angeles, San Francisco or New York City at night! The local
Brazilians all think I was very lucky to escape death or serious
injuries that night!

You could have suggested precautions or solutions, rather than trying
to pick holes in my story, which just shows that you are not
sympathetic to a lone tourist in distress, but are probably siding
with the thugs, victimizing unsuspecting preys! I do not believe you
have good, unselfish motivations in this case!

When the initial thug confronted me, I had walked past the café a few
houses. The customers were sitting inside the cafe due to the rain. I
was roughly past the Hotel Mirasol with its large glass front across
the street. When I glanced other thugs running toward me from other
corners, a vision of my lifeless body lying in a pool of blood was
very clear in my head! Instinctlively I felt back tracking towards
the café would put me closer to the incoming thugs. I pulled the first
thug out to the middle of the street, roughly in front of the hotel
Mirasol, and screamed "HELP, HELP, HELP…" but there were no response
from anyone, anywhere. In a matter of seconds, I decided that "
POLICIA …" may work better and immediately started bellowing. I had
to make quick decisions and ran fast basically to save my own life. I
saw running cars with head lights on Rebata Reveiro and I quickly ran
towards them.

When I rethink the whole incident, the closest hotel would have been
the Mirasol, which would have staff in the lobby. But I am not sure
if they would bother to open their door to assist a tourist in
distress. The Copacabana Hotel Residencia was definitely not
interested in helping or taking any actions. The police also acted
very casually, as if they ran into these violent incidents many times
everyday. Despite the warm personality of the policemen and their
willingness to help, I had reservations that they could be effective
after dealing with them. I had my distrust then, and I declined to
get into their patrol cars for the search or to return to the hotel!

A number of people, presumably with more experience in Brazil, have
since written me private emails suggesting I skip Brazil. I found,
through my own experience, some serious flaws of characters in the
Brazilian people in Rio, such as the couple guys I found the first day
who would pee openly on the streets in broad day light, sometimes on
someone else cars' doors, right on very busy streets like Rebata
Reveiro or Copacabana. Every street in Copacabana stinks of urine and
fresh sewage! These are bad things that happened in the best parts of
Rio, not in the favela, where the impoverished residents may deserve
excuses for their uncivil actions. I also found some disturbingly bad
attitudes among various young, old, educated and wealthy Brazilians in
Rio, Sao Paolo etc… which I will write down when I have time.

My opinions of Brazil and her people, after much reviews of the
events, facts and rationalizations, to be honest, very low. I do not
stand to gain or lose anything by posting my information and opinions
on Brazil. I do it only to inform fellow travelers. I advised a new
friend in Rio, a pretty girl from Spain, against walking in the rain
at night in Rio which she felt was romantic! A number of people
emailed me suggesting not walking in Rio at all!

Your attitude helps convince me firmly that Brazil is not on top of
the list of countries I want to visit!


JohnM wrote in message
...
In article , P E T E R
P A N writes

-- snip snip --

I had gotten out of the internet store late at night and stopped to
buy cigarettes at a small coffee shop next door, which still had a
dozen people, customers and waiters. As I walked out of the shop, I
stopped on the sidewalk to lit a cigarette. That was when this dark,
scruffy guy, wearing a white shirt, came out of nowhere, talking to me
in Portugeese. I thought he wanted a cigarette so I offered him the
pack. He ignored my offer, kept talking firmly and threateiningly in
Portugeeze, repeating the phrase "No problem...". I moved out to the
street. He blocked my way, grabbing and holding my shirt firmly with
both hands. I pulled away, he refused to let go. At the same time,
out of the corner of my eyes, I saw a few other guys running toward us
from the dark street corners. The street was dark, wet and deserted.
Suddenly there was noone on the street but the thugs.

-- snip snip --

Erm, continuity problem there, as my editor might say. Was the street
wet, dark and deserted, despite the coffee-shop you had just walked out
of with its dozen people inside? Why didn't you just walk back in if the
guy attacked you 'as you walked out'?

I think that the original poster just needs to learn a little about
Probability and Statistics. Just because he was assaulted once in
Rio, while never in other cities, does not imply, all by itself,
that Rio is any more dangerous than the other cities.

I agree that this tragic experience was brought about by ill advised
actions... why would anyone walk the streets of *any* big city at
night? Didn't he know that he could get mugged or something? It
seems like this is something that he does all the time, and so it
was just a matter of time and pure coincidence that it finally
happened in Rio. I live in LA, one of the cited cities, and I would
*never* walk around downtown LA at night... one look at those
streets should be enough to dissuade any sensible person.

Don

JB wrote:

Peterpan,

you've seen a lot of crosstalk showing you the fact from basically
two
different points of view, both were im my first post. Don't let
some
harsh posts from some scb participants upset you. For some of them
the points I summarize below are so obvious that they are upset to
find somenone that ignores them.

First, don't walk after dark in any big city, unless you're
looking for trouble. It may be a valid advice even in your home
town. Big cities are, and have always been, a hideout for
criminals because it's the best place to be anonymous. Nighttime,
again, is favourable to such people. It seems you're kind of
romantic and like to walk alone at night, when everything looks
different. But be realistic: it's not wise to do it in big cities,
dark and empty streets. That's what Kurko meant whith "Actually
these "thugs" should've removed you from the genepool". The thugs
were a lot wiser than you. They were exploring "their" area as the
spider inspects its net, and they are never alone. You're very
lucky. When I saw the list of cities where you walked by at night
I was astonished. For your information, I avoid Barata Ribeiro
(and many other places) at night, even by car.

Second, don't generalize, mainly when you're extending to a whole
country the impressions you've got from a big city at night. It's
not wise, again.

Brazil (and other countries as well) have thousands of fine places
to go and have big fun. Why do people insist in big cities, that
look almost the same all over the world. But if you really want to
go, don't forget the first paragraph.

"Donald A. Dade" wrote in message
news:PnG3c.160822$Xp.829175@attbi_s54...
I think that the original poster just needs to learn a little about
Probability and Statistics. Just because he was assaulted once in
Rio, while never in other cities, does not imply, all by itself,
that Rio is any more dangerous than the other cities.

In Rio de Janeiro the probability to become a victim of an assault is
approximately 100000 times grater than in let's say Helsinki.

was just a matter of time and pure coincidence that it finally
happened in Rio. I live in LA, one of the cited cities, and I would
*never* walk around downtown LA at night... one look at those
streets should be enough to dissuade any sensible person.

Too bad. Is that man's life at all? You have to crawl in ditches to avoid to
villains.

P E T E R P A N schrieb:


The Italians in question are citizens of Italy, but permanent
residents of the US in West Palm Beach, Florida. Perhaps the Brazil's
counselate treat them differently? They mentioned specifically the
US$140 visa fee and decided to stay away from Brazil!

There is still some misinformation here. If they had Italian
passports, then no visa would be required.


To answer other posters in this thread, the US was attacked by
terrorists, hijacking 4 airliners full of passengers, including
probably a few Brazilians and other nationalities, slamming them into
US government and business centers. Those are very serious, all-out
war acts! We need to take all measures to make sure such horrible acts
can never again happen!

But maybe firing at the wrong targets? None of the terrorists were
Brazilian or entered the USA from Brazil, but a bunch of them
were studying in Germany.

Two of the flying terrorists were on Interpol's "wanted list", but
they entered the USA without any problems.

A few weeks ago, Abdelghani Mzoudi, one of the suspects behind the
9/11 attacks, was set free by the German justice for lack of proof,
although the judges expressed substantial doubts about his innocence.

Right now the German Supreme Court has ordered a revision on Mounir
al-Motassadeq's trial (and 15 years in prison sentence) also because,
though nobody thinks he is innocent, his guilt couldn't be proved
beyond doubt.

This could be easily changed if the German justice had evidence
given by Ramzi Binalshibh, "the 20th hijacker", who is under US
custody since his capture in Pakistan, but US authorities refuse to
let Germans have any access to him or even to hand over a testimony
of his to the German justice.

With this, there is the possibility of soon a second mastermind
behind the attacks walking off free.

Think of *THIS* next time you say that "we need to take all measures
to make sure such horrible acts can never again happen!"



However, they have to balance those desires with the
responsibilities to maintain security, laws and order, with limited
resources, in a wide-open and free country, where people are allowed
to move around and do things freely, and the enormous costs and
difficulties in hiring officials to track down errant visitors after
the fact. As reported by various sources, the average cost to the US
government for each employee is about US$100,000 per year. That's the
constraint with which the government must figure out how to manage its
respinsiblities and resources.

This is getting off-topic, but then you have to ask the present
administration, in view of what you said above, why the tax cuts for
the rich. (This is anyway an internal question of your country and
we have nothing to say about that.)


I don't understand why Brazilians, including a professor friend, would
think the US government would act, not driven by absolutely critical
needs, but to just spite and denigrate any people in the world with
its visa procedures.

Or then put yourself on the other side of a tourist visa application
and ask why all these people would be getting this same impression.



Please understand their responsibilities and excuse them if they do
not appear friendly. They are there to do very serious and
professional jobs. If they are all friendly, then Osama Bin Laden
would have smuggled divisions of Jihad terrorists into the US.

And have you ever stopped to think why the USA is targetted, but not
Brazil, Argentina, Italy, China, Germany, Greece etc.?


Another thing you should know about US bureaucrats is that they are
very sensitive to keeping their low-paying government jobs and their
retirement pensions. If you feel you have been mistreated or
discriminated, by all means take down the names of the bureaucrats
involved, along with the facts and witnesses. You should then write
letters to the responsible managers to seek redress, or you should
obtain lawyers and sue everyone involved for large compensations. I
remember a few Bosnian women, who were raped by Slobodan Melosevich's
troops, got contingency lawyers and sued the Bosnian government in a
New York federal court in 2000, and were granted the rights to collect
millions dollars of damages against that government.

You are losing sense of proportion here. There is no paralell between
being raped and having a visa refused by someone who can easily find
any non-conformity he wants if he didn't like the applicant's appear-
ance (not to mention the subjective feeling of being discriminated.)



This option is recommended to people of friendly countries but is
obviously closed to hostile, violent and evil tyrants like Osama Bin
Laden and Sadam Hussein etc... These terrorists are resolutely
referred to the Big Complaints Office, staffed by the US Department of
Defense with their brave young men and women, who expertly use their
fine aircraft carriers, top-notch aircrafts, smart missiles and
precision munitions to deal with any threats from evil terrorists....

This kind of belief answers in part the question of why the USA gets
targetted.

I hate to be the one to disclose this to you, but this is not the
way to deal with terrorists. It didn't work at the WTC or the
Pentagon, it doens't work in Israel, and it isn't working in Iraq
-- on the contrary; Al-Qaeda, who was kept away from Iraq during
Saddam's dictatorship is now active and recruiting more and more
people in the country.

The problem you can't go around is that you are umbilically con-
nected to the terrorists: you give billions to your great friends,
the Saudi wahhabis, the same who finance these religious extrem-
ists all over the world.



Let's hope that we are all devoting our intelligence, energy and faith
in improving peace, prosperity and happiness for all peoples!

Amen!

JL

This dumb, uncivilized jerk Kurko is trying to blame Rio's very
serious crime problems on the victims, instead of the perpetrators!
With his stupid arguments and seriously bas attitudes, he's obviously
a dumb loser, probably a criminal himself!

The good Brazilians should admit to serious crime problems in Rio,
probably in Sao Paolo, Brasilia, Foz do Iquacu... as well as, and
pressure their police/government to try out various programs to find
those that will make progress!

The hotel people in Foz do Iquacu warned me sternly about walking the
streets at night, as gangs on dark streets have been known to knife
people for their wallets. They also insisted on calling known good
taxi drivers for me, as taxi drivers were also known to rob tourists!

It would look very bad to the rest of the world that the good
Brazilians appear to be giving up, ceding controls of their scenic
cities to the dumb, dirty criminals who would rob and knife tourists
and good Brazilians!

I am not trying to paint all Brazilians as bad. I had some good times
and warm friendships with quite a few Brazilians. However, the bad
attitudes of this uncivilized jerk, Kurko, is typical of many, if not
the majority, Brazilians I encountered. They would quickly blame all
problems on someone else, preferably the victims, rather than tryign
to look for preventions or solutions!

Among the Brazilains I met, there seems to be a deep shame about
themselves and their society, even among the educated, wealthy people,
that prevent them from discussing some of these problems openly and
honestly, at any level, emotional, intellectual or educational...Most
of them, including some close Brazilian friends, would try to talk
around the issues then drop them altogether! This lack of honesty is
the complete opposite of the people in Argentina and US!

Anyone possessing this dumb jerk Kurko's irrepsonsible losers'
attitudes should be considered untrustworthy and not deserving
friendship!




Kurko wrote in message ...
Oh really!

Well I think that you've just been lucky, because that kind of behavior is
just plain dumb.

What do you think the local people feel when they see someone being robbed?
They're simply
as afraid as the one who is under attack. In every ****in' guide I've seen
about Rio it says
that DO NOT WALK during the night. I've lived there over a year without amy
problems, because
I used a TAXI after sunset. During the day Rio is probably the most
beautiful city, and no
problems.

It just makes me mad when whining litte wimps, who are looking for trouble,
come here and
start blaiming others on their own stupidity.

Unfortunately Rio has ****loads of Favelas, in which ther are all kinds of
criminals.
The problem of favelas is the fact that most of the people living there are
just poor
hardworking people, only a small amount of recidents of the favelas are
these criminals.
Its true that these druglords are true leaders of these favelas, but
cleaning them is quite difficult. This results as one of highest crimerates
in the world. Police in Rio wont do anything
bercause they can't do enything. Do you really beleive they can find
anybody with vague description you may be able to give them? The robbers
were back in their favela long
before you even encountered the police.

Anyway, its just fine that you hate Rio, actually its excellent, because
Rio and
brasilians do not need a single loud and arrogant Americans to abuse their
country and people. Its so saddening to see how these GRINGOS go to country
like Brasil
and behave like they own the ****in' place. I wish that Brasil would take
in use a
test of intelligence for the tourists coming from USA. I bet that 90% would
fail.

Kurko

Thank you for your kind words.

Now lets correct one assumption you have made. I'm not brasilian, though I
lived there
for a while.

If this PETER PAN were an intelligent being he would already know my
nationality.

I rest my case.

Kurko

On 10 Mar 2004 13:01:36 -0800, P E T E R P A N
wrote:

This dumb, uncivilized jerk Kurko is trying to blame Rio's very
serious crime problems on the victims, instead of the perpetrators!
With his stupid arguments and seriously bas attitudes, he's obviously
a dumb loser, probably a criminal himself!

The good Brazilians should admit to serious crime problems in Rio,
probably in Sao Paolo, Brasilia, Foz do Iquacu... as well as, and
pressure their police/government to try out various programs to find
those that will make progress!

The hotel people in Foz do Iquacu warned me sternly about walking the
streets at night, as gangs on dark streets have been known to knife
people for their wallets. They also insisted on calling known good
taxi drivers for me, as taxi drivers were also known to rob tourists!

It would look very bad to the rest of the world that the good
Brazilians appear to be giving up, ceding controls of their scenic
cities to the dumb, dirty criminals who would rob and knife tourists
and good Brazilians!

I am not trying to paint all Brazilians as bad. I had some good times
and warm friendships with quite a few Brazilians. However, the bad
attitudes of this uncivilized jerk, Kurko, is typical of many, if not
the majority, Brazilians I encountered. They would quickly blame all
problems on someone else, preferably the victims, rather than tryign
to look for preventions or solutions!

Among the Brazilains I met, there seems to be a deep shame about
themselves and their society, even among the educated, wealthy people,
that prevent them from discussing some of these problems openly and
honestly, at any level, emotional, intellectual or educational...Most
of them, including some close Brazilian friends, would try to talk
around the issues then drop them altogether! This lack of honesty is
the complete opposite of the people in Argentina and US!

Anyone possessing this dumb jerk Kurko's irrepsonsible losers'
attitudes should be considered untrustworthy and not deserving
friendship!




Kurko wrote in message
...
Oh really!

Well I think that you've just been lucky, because that kind of behavior
is just plain dumb.

What do you think the local people feel when they see someone being
robbed? They're simply
as afraid as the one who is under attack. In every ****in' guide I've
seen about Rio it says
that DO NOT WALK during the night. I've lived there over a year without
amy problems, because
I used a TAXI after sunset. During the day Rio is probably the most
beautiful city, and no
problems.

It just makes me mad when whining litte wimps, who are looking for
trouble, come here and
start blaiming others on their own stupidity.

Unfortunately Rio has ****loads of Favelas, in which ther are all kinds
of criminals.
The problem of favelas is the fact that most of the people living there
are just poor
hardworking people, only a small amount of recidents of the favelas are
these criminals.
Its true that these druglords are true leaders of these favelas, but
cleaning them is quite difficult. This results as one of highest
crimerates in the world. Police in Rio wont do anything
bercause they can't do enything. Do you really beleive they can find
anybody with vague description you may be able to give them? The robbers
were back in their favela long
before you even encountered the police.

Anyway, its just fine that you hate Rio, actually its excellent, because
Rio and
brasilians do not need a single loud and arrogant Americans to abuse
their
country and people. Its so saddening to see how these GRINGOS go to
country like Brasil
and behave like they own the ****in' place. I wish that Brasil would
take in use a
test of intelligence for the tourists coming from USA. I bet that 90%
would fail.

Kurko




--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Yeah right!

Lock your stupid, cowardly loser's self inside your little apartment.
Tour the streets of Rio only in armored vehicles with armed
bodyguards.... Then you will solve the crime problems in Rio...

Welcome to the country of dumb, unprincipled losers!


Kurko wrote in message ...
Thank you for your kind words.

Now lets correct one assumption you have made. I'm not brasilian, though I
lived there
for a while.

If this PETER PAN were an intelligent being he would already know my
nationality.

I rest my case.

Kurko