Travelling to Rio

http://threehegemons.tripod.com/thre...blog/id64.html

At Your Great Peril, Defy the Lords of the Slums
By LARRY ROHTER


IO DE JANEIRO, June 27 Gang leaders had taken control of the weekend
funk dances in the neighborhood, selling drugs openly and forcing
young girls to have sex with them. The police had been alerted but had
done nothing, so the residents of the slum known as the Favela da
Grota turned, like so many others here before them, to the crusading
crime reporter Tim Lopes.

Mr. Lopes was last seen on the night of June 2, on his way to one of
the raucous dances. The charred remains of the camera he was carrying
have been found, but Mr. Lopes never returned, and two gunmen for the
drug lord who controls the neighborhood have horrified the city by
boasting to reporters and police officers that he was kidnapped and
killed on orders of their boss.

Press and rights groups here and abroad have condemned the killing,
with the Inter-American Press Association warning that "criminals and
organized crime are defining the limits of freedom of expression"
here. But for Rio's 5.8 million residents, the death of one of the
city's best-known reporters is the most chilling demonstration yet
that hillside shantytowns here have become gang fiefs.

"We are seeing the emergence of a new form of criminal organization,
one that actually controls and governs a geographically defined
territory," said Walter Maierovitch, Brazil's former anti-drug czar.
"These gangs have become a challenge to the state, parallel
governments that threaten Brazil's democracy and the rule of law."

Mr. Lopes, 50, specialized in undercover investigations, often using a
miniature camera and microphone hidden on his body. He dressed up as
Santa Claus for one investigative report, spent two months as a drug
rehab patient to obtain another, and last year won Brazil's equivalent
of the Pulitzer Prize for a vivid account of open-air drug markets in
Rio's favelas, as the city's 513 squatter settlements are called in
Portuguese.

It was that report that led residents of the Favela da Grota to place
their confidence in Mr. Lopes, himself born in a slum here, instead of
the police, who are widely viewed as corrupt and incompetent. The slum
dwellers hoped that their plight would be publicized on "Fantástico,"
a popular Sunday night television program that is a cross between "60
Minutes" and "Inside Edition."

The police now say that Mr. Lopes was executed by Elias Pereira da
Silva, a powerful drug lord known in local tabloids as "Elias the
Madman. The two garrulous gang members, who are in police custody,
said that they saw the reporter being shot in the feet to prevent him
from fleeing. Then, they said, he was tortured and cut to pieces with
a samurai sword, after which his body was burned.

Mr. da Silva, a main leader of a powerful crime group known as the Red
Command, was accused of killing four police officers in 1993 and in
1996 was jailed on drug charges. But he was released two years ago
after police officers failed to show up to testify against him in
court hearings, enabling his lawyers to file a successful habeas
corpus petition.

Since then, Mr. da Silva, 35, and other gang leaders have become even
more powerful, enforcing their will through intimidation and violence.
"They are the law, the only law, and you have to obey them whether you
like it or not," said Clarissa Fonseca de Bastos, a street vendor who
lives in a favela known as the Morro da Formiga, or Anthill.

In some neighborhoods, residents say, drug lords now determine when
stores and schools open and close, who can enter or leave and where
and how houses can be built. Their authority is most pronounced in the
favelas, which are home to more than a million of Rio's residents, but
it is also beginning to extend to middle-class neighborhoods.

A European journalist living here, for example, was recently
approached by subordinates of the drug dealer who controls a nearby
favela. They said "the boss" had ordered her to trim a 100-year-old
tree that was blocking his view of an approach road used by the
police.

The reporter refused, not wanting to put her home in the line of fire.
But after a burst of gunfire just outside her house that day, she told
the gang members that they could trim the tree themselves if they
desired.

Better armed than the police and increasingly bold, gangs have even
begun to attack government offices. The windows of City Hall were shot
out this week. Last month grenades were thrown and machine guns fired
at the state Secretariat of Human Rights while senior officials met
inside; in another gang assault, the secretary of economic development
and five other people were taken hostage at their office.

"From here on in," read a note signed by the Red Command and left
behind at the human rights office, "any arbitrary action against our
jailed brethren will be answered in kind with bullets."

In another recent incident, a midafternoon shootout between the Red
Command and its main rival, the Third Command, forced the closing of
one of the city's main tunnels, which comes out near the state
governor's residence. At night, gangs routinely block tunnels or set
up checkpoints on isolated streets, unhampered by the police, and rob
or kidnap unwary motorists.

Even more ominously, drug lords are increasingly acting as judge, jury
and executioner, a development actually welcomed by some slum
residents in the absence of the police. While searching for Mr.
Lopes's body, a police team discovered a clandestine cemetery with the
remains of an estimated 50 people sentenced to death, residents said,
by gang "tribunals."

The new governor of the state of Rio de Janeiro, Benedita da Silva,
has promised to put more officers on the streets. But shantytown
residents say the main problem is not the number of officers but their
unwillingness to confront criminal gangs.

"At the first burst of gunfire, the police always turn and run away,"
said Geraldo Lopes Bulhoes, a street sweeper who lives in a slum
called Vidigal, adding, "We have no one to protect us, no one at all."



"B H" wrote in message ...
I think PETER PAN refers to my posting about crime/pickpocket aviodance
guide in a thread
further down here (rec.travel.latin-america).
I was the one who experienced the problem with the self-appointed parking
attendant.
I think there are at least two kinds of parking attendants. Official ones (I
think I have heard
that they have som kind of cloth or id to be sure they are official) and
self-appointed ones.
The one I met certainly looked highly unofficial to say the least. But from
there to say that
he is into some organised crime and mafia is taking it a bit far (but of
course I do not know that).
Can anyone shed some light on the facts here? Are there official and
self-appointed parking
attendants, or just official ones in Rio? I think I know the answer, but
would like a more
qualified statement than my own here.

Borge

"Kurko" wrote in message
news
3. In 3rd world countries there are JOBS like parking attendants. These
guys have
actually licence to operate as such (atleast in Rio they do). There is no
MAFIA involved here, just some people trying to get their livelihood with
honest way (read
not robbing the tourists).

http://www.americaspolicy.org/articl...azil_body.html

Impoverished Brazilian Youth Face Little Option but to Die Young
Sam Logan | September 16, 2003

Americas Program, Interhemispheric Resource Center (IRC)
www.americaspolicy.org

A 16-year-old drug dealer with a sack of cocaine next to a 15-year-old
soldado with a Kalashnikov AK-47 assault rifle, holding sway over
younger children on the playground.

Photo Credit: Anja Kessler

Rio de Janeiro is not a city at war. The UN does not consider it a
focal point of armed violence. Yet for its underserved youth, it most
certainly is. Between December of 1987 and November 2001, violent
death claimed 3,937 Cariocas, or local residents, under 18 years of
age. By comparison, during the same time period, 467 minors died in
and around the West Bank between Jordan and Israel, which is
considered a war zone by the international community.

The impoverished adolescents of Rio's slums, faced with limited
options, join organized crime that, often as not, leads to their early
and violent death. They are not child soldiers in the strict sense of
the term, but neither can they be considered ordinary delinquents when
drug lords arm them with war-grade weapons and pay them monthly
salaries.

They are victims of years of poverty, social marginalization, and drug
gang institutionalization.

For some 20 years, Rio's slums, known as favelas, and their 1 million
inhabitants have become increasingly independent of the Brazilian
state. This has resulted in the institutionalization of organized
gangs that provide community security services otherwise
conventionally delivered by government actors. Because the favela
exists outside any normal social contract between civilians and state,
another social order, enforced by drug gangs and their soldiers, or
soldados, as they're called here, prevents crime such as rape and
theft, rewards honesty, and punishes infractions with lethal force.

In this extra-legal system of order, drug lords rob the favela of its
youth. Due to the long-term nature of violence in Rio's favelas, drug
lords turn to younger soldiers to defend the favela from rival gangs
and conventional forms of justice represented by the military and
civil police: Sustained high death rates have killed off would-be
adult soldiers. Today's soldiers are often between 16 and 18 years of
age, some as young as 14.

According to Children and Youth in Organized Armed Violence (COAV)
Executive Coordinator Luke Dowdney, the adolescents of Rio's favelas
turn to the drug trade after making well-informed decisions based on a
number of factors. "Poverty, the institutionalization of drug
factions, and the lack of access to the traditional work market is
common to everyone who lives in the favela, yet only 1% of favela
inhabitants are involved in the drug trade," Dowdney states.
"Adolescents, particularly, are attracted to the social ascension and
the status achieved by working with a drug gang." Dowdney adds, "Peer
groups and family members, especially mothers, contribute to reasons
why youths choose to get involved or not." Male youths involved in
drug gangs represent 5% to 6% of the 1 million Brazilians living in
Rio's favelas.



But they are not involved for just the money and social status. They
are involved because there is often no other option for survival: to
eat, buy clothes, and pay rent. "A soldier in the wealthier favelas
may earn up to 1,500 to 2,000 reales [$500 to $650] a month, which is
significant, but in most cases he has no other option but to turn to
the drug trade to eat," Dowdney says. Many armed adolescents admit
they will not live to see 18 years of age. The majority of armed
adolescents are between 15 and 17 years old because the homicide rate
jumps over 820% for those drug gang soldiers 18 years of age or older.
They work on a kill-or-be-killed basis, and 50% of armed youth have
been directly involved in killing, according to COAV.

Before dying these kids make their mark. According to the director of
local anti-violence NGO Viva Rio, Rubém Cesar Fernandes, two policemen
die a week due to violent confrontations with armed adolescents here.
"[The cops] are scared, and because of their fear, they shoot first
and ask questions later," Fernandes said, adding, "The kids respect
policemen who come in shooting, not the ones that come in to talk."
The current dismal condition of Brazil's justice system and prisons
only adds to the problem. Nearly 95% of all homicide cases do not even
make it to court, according to Fernandes. Both the cops and the armed
adolescents know that there is little other option than to shoot to
kill or die trying.

Meanwhile, in South Africa, where the disparity between rich and poor
has created a similar situation, social observers have begun to see
trends toward what they call a "new medievalism," which describes
fortified enclaves of the rich with private armies to protect them
from the neighboring poor who have turned to violence to make a life
on the fringes of society, according to Institute for Security Studies
Senior Researcher Ted Leggett. Considering Rio's wealthy neighborhoods
are surrounded by nearby favelas, a new medievalism situation could
easily take root if state actors continue to ignore the problem.
"Brazil needs police reform, sustained truce with the drug gangs,
social programs to educate the poor, and urban works projects to turn
the favelas into neighborhoods," Leggett said.

Yet Mr. Leggett and others who have proposed solutions to the problem
of institutionalized urban violence claim that even before undertaking
police reform and education or employment programs, state authorities
must make a clear decision to approach the problem with a long-term
commitment. "After 20 years of drug gang institutionalization, we must
have at least 20 years of social reform to improve the situation,"
argued Dowdney.

But the political will for such a long-term policy is elusive, as is
funding. And the current policy of so-called "blitz"
occupation--whereby highly trained civil police enter and occupy a
favela with the same lethal force and shoot-to-kill mentality employed
by soldiers in battle--championed by current Rio de Janeiro State
Secretary of Security Anthony Garotinho only exacerbates the problem.
Until the political leadership changes, Rio's impoverished youth will
continue to die young, and both armed adolescents and cops will
continue to be victimized.

Ask any policeman here about combating armed youth in the favela and
you will learn that the rite of passage from rookie to veteran
continues to be measured not by days on the beat but by life and
death. Veterans are hardened individuals. Because here in Rio de
Janeiro, it is said that the difference between a living veteran and a
dead rookie is the split second it takes to think twice about killing
a child because you never know if he is armed or not.

Sam Logan is a journalist in Rio de Janeiro
and a 2004 candidate for Master of International Policy Studies at the
Monterey Institute of International Studies.




(JB) wrote in message . com...
Peterpan,

you've seen a lot of crosstalk showing you the fact from basically two
different points of view, both were im my first post. Don't let some
harsh posts from some scb participants upset you. For some of them the
points I summarize below are so obvious that they are upset to find
somenone that ignores them.

First, don't walk after dark in any big city, unless you're looking
for trouble. It may be a valid advice even in your home town. Big
cities are, and have always been, a hideout for criminals because it's
the best place to be anonymous. Nighttime, again, is favourable to
such people. It seems you're kind of romantic and like to walk alone
at night, when everything looks different. But be realistic: it's not
wise to do it in big cities, dark and empty streets. That's what Kurko
meant whith "Actually these "thugs" should've removed you from the
genepool". The thugs were a lot wiser than you. They were exploring
"their" area as the spider inspects its net, and they are never alone.
You're very lucky. When I saw the list of cities where you walked by
at night I was astonished. For your information, I avoid Barata
Ribeiro (and many other places) at night, even by car.

Second, don't generalize, mainly when you're extending to a whole
country the impressions you've got from a big city at night. It's not
wise, again.

Brazil (and other countries as well) have thousands of fine places to
go and have big fun. Why do people insist in big cities, that look
almost the same all over the world. But if you really want to go,
don't forget the first paragraph.


(P E T E R P A N) wrote in message m...
I walked many cities at night, including LA, San Francisco, New York,
Miami, London, Paris, Rome, Tokyo, Seoul, Bangkok, Singapore, Kuala
Lumpur, Denpasar, Jakarta, Buenos Aires, Montevideo ... without any
problems!

It is the stupid, nasty *sshole like you and dumb thugs, thieves,
robbers and the savages, who would p*ss on sidewalks and someone else'
cars on the busy streets of Rio in broad day light, who should be
removed from the gene pool! Stupid, ignorant nasty trash like you are
a shame and a grave threat for all mankind!

As everyone can see, this nasty guy Kurko confirms that Brazil is a
very unsafe, lawless place, populated by a lot of dumb savages like
himself. Visitors to Brazil, Rio and Sao Paolo, have a very high
probability of getting robbed or beaten. Don't expect local people to
help when you need it!


Kurko wrote in message ...
Hello!

Excuse me, but by all means who is such a stupid **** to walk during the
night in any major
city in the world.

Actually these "thugs" should've removed you from the genepool.


Kurko

On 7 Mar 2004 18:10:33 -0800, P E T E R P A N
wrote:

Dear JohnM,

For one thing, the entire incident happened very quickly, in a matter
of 1 or 2 minutes. I was in fear for my life and I did not have a lot
of time or in position to think of all alternative courses of actions.
I just acted instinctively. This was the first time I faced potential
violence in some 30 years. I was never in more fear, even in downtown
Los Angeles, San Francisco or New York City at night! The local
Brazilians all think I was very lucky to escape death or serious
injuries that night!

You could have suggested precautions or solutions, rather than trying
to pick holes in my story, which just shows that you are not
sympathetic to a lone tourist in distress, but are probably siding
with the thugs, victimizing unsuspecting preys! I do not believe you
have good, unselfish motivations in this case!

When the initial thug confronted me, I had walked past the café a few
houses. The customers were sitting inside the cafe due to the rain. I
was roughly past the Hotel Mirasol with its large glass front across
the street. When I glanced other thugs running toward me from other
corners, a vision of my lifeless body lying in a pool of blood was
very clear in my head! Instinctlively I felt back tracking towards
the café would put me closer to the incoming thugs. I pulled the first
thug out to the middle of the street, roughly in front of the hotel
Mirasol, and screamed "HELP, HELP, HELP…" but there were no response
from anyone, anywhere. In a matter of seconds, I decided that "
POLICIA …" may work better and immediately started bellowing. I had
to make quick decisions and ran fast basically to save my own life. I
saw running cars with head lights on Rebata Reveiro and I quickly ran
towards them.

When I rethink the whole incident, the closest hotel would have been
the Mirasol, which would have staff in the lobby. But I am not sure
if they would bother to open their door to assist a tourist in
distress. The Copacabana Hotel Residencia was definitely not
interested in helping or taking any actions. The police also acted
very casually, as if they ran into these violent incidents many times
everyday. Despite the warm personality of the policemen and their
willingness to help, I had reservations that they could be effective
after dealing with them. I had my distrust then, and I declined to
get into their patrol cars for the search or to return to the hotel!

A number of people, presumably with more experience in Brazil, have
since written me private emails suggesting I skip Brazil. I found,
through my own experience, some serious flaws of characters in the
Brazilian people in Rio, such as the couple guys I found the first day
who would pee openly on the streets in broad day light, sometimes on
someone else cars' doors, right on very busy streets like Rebata
Reveiro or Copacabana. Every street in Copacabana stinks of urine and
fresh sewage! These are bad things that happened in the best parts of
Rio, not in the favela, where the impoverished residents may deserve
excuses for their uncivil actions. I also found some disturbingly bad
attitudes among various young, old, educated and wealthy Brazilians in
Rio, Sao Paolo etc… which I will write down when I have time.

My opinions of Brazil and her people, after much reviews of the
events, facts and rationalizations, to be honest, very low. I do not
stand to gain or lose anything by posting my information and opinions
on Brazil. I do it only to inform fellow travelers. I advised a new
friend in Rio, a pretty girl from Spain, against walking in the rain
at night in Rio which she felt was romantic! A number of people
emailed me suggesting not walking in Rio at all!

Your attitude helps convince me firmly that Brazil is not on top of
the list of countries I want to visit!


JohnM wrote in message
...
In article , P E T E R
P A N writes

-- snip snip --

I had gotten out of the internet store late at night and stopped to
buy cigarettes at a small coffee shop next door, which still had a
dozen people, customers and waiters. As I walked out of the shop, I
stopped on the sidewalk to lit a cigarette. That was when this dark,
scruffy guy, wearing a white shirt, came out of nowhere, talking to me
in Portugeese. I thought he wanted a cigarette so I offered him the
pack. He ignored my offer, kept talking firmly and threateiningly in
Portugeeze, repeating the phrase "No problem...". I moved out to the
street. He blocked my way, grabbing and holding my shirt firmly with
both hands. I pulled away, he refused to let go. At the same time,
out of the corner of my eyes, I saw a few other guys running toward us
from the dark street corners. The street was dark, wet and deserted.
Suddenly there was noone on the street but the thugs.

-- snip snip --

Erm, continuity problem there, as my editor might say. Was the street
wet, dark and deserted, despite the coffee-shop you had just walked out
of with its dozen people inside? Why didn't you just walk back in if the
guy attacked you 'as you walked out'?

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m.../article.jhtml

Hot in the city: crowded jails and drug economics push Latin American
cities to their limit on crime.

Latin Trade, Jan-Feb, 2003, by Mery Galanternick

On a recent Friday night, Fernando Gamma bumped his Ford Corsa into
another car in Copacabana. He called the police on his cellular phone
to report the crash so his insurance company would pay for the damage.
After 45 minutes, the police did not show. He called again. The voice
on the other side said: "Listen, mister, we're living in a chaotic
city with shootings everywhere. Yours is not a serious case. Please be
patient:'

A wave of violence has taken over this city Criminal gangs have forced
businesses, schools and banks to close and fired machine guns at the
governor's palace in Rio de Janeiro. A gang member threw a band
grenade at a large shopping center, and their members have assaulted
police stations and patrol cars.

It's hard all over the region, as weakening economies fuel drug and
crime waves. In Sao Paulo, the murder rate hit 1,000 per month in
2002. Crime in Buenos Aires has tripled since 1991, the decade of its
supposed economic advance. Mexico City, meanwhile, hired iron-fisted
ex-New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani to combat off-the-hook lawlessness
in the capital, where kidnapping has turned into an industry.

But violence in Rio is breaking scary new ground. On Sept. 30, known
as "Black Monday:' stores, banks, offices, schools and markets in this
city of 5.8 million were forced to close on orders of jailed drug
lords unhappy with their living conditions. It was the first time that
Copacabana and Ipanema neighborhoods in the posh south zone had
received lock down orders from gang leaders behind bars.

At Ipanema's fashionable Top Center building, retail store managers
blame violence for the sales slowdown. "Customers aren't coming to Rio
anymore; they are scared," says Marli Alves, manager of Gang, a store
that specializes in jeans.

Concerned with increasing chaos, Rio's 334,000-member Federacao do
Comercio issued a first-ever survey on security expenses for the
business community. In Rio's metropolitan area, companies now spend
US$56 million a month on security. Businesses spending the most are
jewelry stores, shopping centers and hotels.

"Violence permeates every major city, but when drug lords start giving
orders, this is not normal," says Alfredo Lopes, president of the
Brazilian Hotel Industry Association. Hotel occupation has fallen 15%
compared to a year ago, while Embratur, Brazil's Tourism Agency,
reports only 29% of foreigners traveling to Brazil visited Rio in
2001, compared to 41% a decade ago. A decline in traveling Argentines
and terrorism jitters have affected Rio, of course.

Fighting back. Despite the near state of siege in Rio, business
leaders are eager to point out that economic growth in metropolitan
Rio has not halted. Many multinationals have opened offices in Rio.
None of them have moved or closed doors because of crime--so far.

"We recently renovated the Sepetiba port. We're building a
petrochemical center' says Orlando Diniz, head of the Federacao do
Comercio. "We have good highways to distribute our products, and our
employees have a higher literacy


(JB) wrote in message . com...
Peterpan,

you've seen a lot of crosstalk showing you the fact from basically two
different points of view, both were im my first post. Don't let some
harsh posts from some scb participants upset you. For some of them the
points I summarize below are so obvious that they are upset to find
somenone that ignores them.

First, don't walk after dark in any big city, unless you're looking
for trouble. It may be a valid advice even in your home town. Big
cities are, and have always been, a hideout for criminals because it's
the best place to be anonymous. Nighttime, again, is favourable to
such people. It seems you're kind of romantic and like to walk alone
at night, when everything looks different. But be realistic: it's not
wise to do it in big cities, dark and empty streets. That's what Kurko
meant whith "Actually these "thugs" should've removed you from the
genepool". The thugs were a lot wiser than you. They were exploring
"their" area as the spider inspects its net, and they are never alone.
You're very lucky. When I saw the list of cities where you walked by
at night I was astonished. For your information, I avoid Barata
Ribeiro (and many other places) at night, even by car.

Second, don't generalize, mainly when you're extending to a whole
country the impressions you've got from a big city at night. It's not
wise, again.

Brazil (and other countries as well) have thousands of fine places to
go and have big fun. Why do people insist in big cities, that look
almost the same all over the world. But if you really want to go,
don't forget the first paragraph.


(P E T E R P A N) wrote in message m...
I walked many cities at night, including LA, San Francisco, New York,
Miami, London, Paris, Rome, Tokyo, Seoul, Bangkok, Singapore, Kuala
Lumpur, Denpasar, Jakarta, Buenos Aires, Montevideo ... without any
problems!

It is the stupid, nasty *sshole like you and dumb thugs, thieves,
robbers and the savages, who would p*ss on sidewalks and someone else'
cars on the busy streets of Rio in broad day light, who should be
removed from the gene pool! Stupid, ignorant nasty trash like you are
a shame and a grave threat for all mankind!

As everyone can see, this nasty guy Kurko confirms that Brazil is a
very unsafe, lawless place, populated by a lot of dumb savages like
himself. Visitors to Brazil, Rio and Sao Paolo, have a very high
probability of getting robbed or beaten. Don't expect local people to
help when you need it!


Kurko wrote in message ...
Hello!

Excuse me, but by all means who is such a stupid **** to walk during the
night in any major
city in the world.

Actually these "thugs" should've removed you from the genepool.


Kurko

On 7 Mar 2004 18:10:33 -0800, P E T E R P A N
wrote:

Dear JohnM,

For one thing, the entire incident happened very quickly, in a matter
of 1 or 2 minutes. I was in fear for my life and I did not have a lot
of time or in position to think of all alternative courses of actions.
I just acted instinctively. This was the first time I faced potential
violence in some 30 years. I was never in more fear, even in downtown
Los Angeles, San Francisco or New York City at night! The local
Brazilians all think I was very lucky to escape death or serious
injuries that night!

You could have suggested precautions or solutions, rather than trying
to pick holes in my story, which just shows that you are not
sympathetic to a lone tourist in distress, but are probably siding
with the thugs, victimizing unsuspecting preys! I do not believe you
have good, unselfish motivations in this case!

When the initial thug confronted me, I had walked past the café a few
houses. The customers were sitting inside the cafe due to the rain. I
was roughly past the Hotel Mirasol with its large glass front across
the street. When I glanced other thugs running toward me from other
corners, a vision of my lifeless body lying in a pool of blood was
very clear in my head! Instinctlively I felt back tracking towards
the café would put me closer to the incoming thugs. I pulled the first
thug out to the middle of the street, roughly in front of the hotel
Mirasol, and screamed "HELP, HELP, HELP…" but there were no response
from anyone, anywhere. In a matter of seconds, I decided that "
POLICIA …" may work better and immediately started bellowing. I had
to make quick decisions and ran fast basically to save my own life. I
saw running cars with head lights on Rebata Reveiro and I quickly ran
towards them.

When I rethink the whole incident, the closest hotel would have been
the Mirasol, which would have staff in the lobby. But I am not sure
if they would bother to open their door to assist a tourist in
distress. The Copacabana Hotel Residencia was definitely not
interested in helping or taking any actions. The police also acted
very casually, as if they ran into these violent incidents many times
everyday. Despite the warm personality of the policemen and their
willingness to help, I had reservations that they could be effective
after dealing with them. I had my distrust then, and I declined to
get into their patrol cars for the search or to return to the hotel!

A number of people, presumably with more experience in Brazil, have
since written me private emails suggesting I skip Brazil. I found,
through my own experience, some serious flaws of characters in the
Brazilian people in Rio, such as the couple guys I found the first day
who would pee openly on the streets in broad day light, sometimes on
someone else cars' doors, right on very busy streets like Rebata
Reveiro or Copacabana. Every street in Copacabana stinks of urine and
fresh sewage! These are bad things that happened in the best parts of
Rio, not in the favela, where the impoverished residents may deserve
excuses for their uncivil actions. I also found some disturbingly bad
attitudes among various young, old, educated and wealthy Brazilians in
Rio, Sao Paolo etc… which I will write down when I have time.

My opinions of Brazil and her people, after much reviews of the
events, facts and rationalizations, to be honest, very low. I do not
stand to gain or lose anything by posting my information and opinions
on Brazil. I do it only to inform fellow travelers. I advised a new
friend in Rio, a pretty girl from Spain, against walking in the rain
at night in Rio which she felt was romantic! A number of people
emailed me suggesting not walking in Rio at all!

Your attitude helps convince me firmly that Brazil is not on top of
the list of countries I want to visit!


JohnM wrote in message
...
In article , P E T E R
P A N writes

-- snip snip --

I had gotten out of the internet store late at night and stopped to
buy cigarettes at a small coffee shop next door, which still had a
dozen people, customers and waiters. As I walked out of the shop, I
stopped on the sidewalk to lit a cigarette. That was when this dark,
scruffy guy, wearing a white shirt, came out of nowhere, talking to me
in Portugeese. I thought he wanted a cigarette so I offered him the
pack. He ignored my offer, kept talking firmly and threateiningly in
Portugeeze, repeating the phrase "No problem...". I moved out to the
street. He blocked my way, grabbing and holding my shirt firmly with
both hands. I pulled away, he refused to let go. At the same time,
out of the corner of my eyes, I saw a few other guys running toward us
from the dark street corners. The street was dark, wet and deserted.
Suddenly there was noone on the street but the thugs.

-- snip snip --

Erm, continuity problem there, as my editor might say. Was the street
wet, dark and deserted, despite the coffee-shop you had just walked out
of with its dozen people inside? Why didn't you just walk back in if the
guy attacked you 'as you walked out'?

Bh,

For my recollection, you are right: there are two kinds of park
attendants. If I am not wrong, it used to be an type of
underemployment--what kids would do in the 70s to get a buck or two. As
unemployment rates increased in the 80s and 90s, the age of the
"flanelinhas" (they used to carry flannel rags to polish the cars they
"took care of") or "guardadores autônomos" also increased--they were
rather adults complementing their income, sometimes making it their only
income sources. I think it was in the late 80s, early 90s, that a group
of those decided to get organized - therefore the name "guardadores
autonomos" (self-employed park attendants). I remember that when the
city decided to charge for public parking in mid-90s, public officers
negotiated with these organized groups, in order to incorporate them in
the new structure.

"Official" park attendants, however, never replaced completely the
"self-appointed" ones. Wherever they have the chance, they will
act--particularly in areas where public parking is legally free.

I have certainly heard stories in which someone who failed to pay the
"flanelinhas" had one's car scratched. It was always a story that
someone heard from someone else, but I don't doubt it may happen. From
there to say there is a mafia, it may really be going too far. Again, I
don't doubt that some "flanelinhas" may collaborate in petty crimes and
misdemeanors--but organized crime tends to pay well enough to its
"soldiers" that you don't have to complement your gains by working as a
parking attendant.

L.

PS. Kurko is right when he says that it also happens in other poor or
developing countries. I know that they became common in Buenos Aires
during the 1990s. It is quite common in Mexico and Colombia, at least.
And some friends told me that it was possible to find "flanelinhas" in
many European cities in the 1970s, specially Portugal, Spain and
southern Italy, before the state regulated urban public parking. It was
rather unofficial, as far as I know, and I don't know if there were the
same stories of car-scratching.



B H wrote:

I think PETER PAN refers to my posting about crime/pickpocket aviodance
guide in a thread
further down here (rec.travel.latin-america).
I was the one who experienced the problem with the self-appointed parking
attendant.
I think there are at least two kinds of parking attendants. Official
ones (I
think I have heard
that they have som kind of cloth or id to be sure they are official) and
self-appointed ones.
The one I met certainly looked highly unofficial to say the least.
But from
there to say that
he is into some organised crime and mafia is taking it a bit far (but of
course I do not know that).
Can anyone shed some light on the facts here? Are there official and
self-appointed parking
attendants, or just official ones in Rio? I think I know the answer, but
would like a more
qualified statement than my own here.

Borge

"Kurko" wrote in message
news
3. In 3rd world countries there are JOBS like parking attendants. These
guys have
actually licence to operate as such (atleast in Rio they do). There
is no
MAFIA involved here, just some people trying to get their livelihood
with
honest way (read
not robbing the tourists).

After reading all the Rio posts, why with all the wonderful places to go,
would anyone travel to Rio?
"Lise Sedrez" wrote in message
...
Bh,

For my recollection, you are right: there are two kinds of park
attendants. If I am not wrong, it used to be an type of
underemployment--what kids would do in the 70s to get a buck or two. As
unemployment rates increased in the 80s and 90s, the age of the
"flanelinhas" (they used to carry flannel rags to polish the cars they
"took care of") or "guardadores autônomos" also increased--they were
rather adults complementing their income, sometimes making it their only
income sources. I think it was in the late 80s, early 90s, that a group
of those decided to get organized - therefore the name "guardadores
autonomos" (self-employed park attendants). I remember that when the
city decided to charge for public parking in mid-90s, public officers
negotiated with these organized groups, in order to incorporate them in
the new structure.

"Official" park attendants, however, never replaced completely the
"self-appointed" ones. Wherever they have the chance, they will
act--particularly in areas where public parking is legally free.

I have certainly heard stories in which someone who failed to pay the
"flanelinhas" had one's car scratched. It was always a story that
someone heard from someone else, but I don't doubt it may happen. From
there to say there is a mafia, it may really be going too far. Again, I
don't doubt that some "flanelinhas" may collaborate in petty crimes and
misdemeanors--but organized crime tends to pay well enough to its
"soldiers" that you don't have to complement your gains by working as a
parking attendant.

L.

PS. Kurko is right when he says that it also happens in other poor or
developing countries. I know that they became common in Buenos Aires
during the 1990s. It is quite common in Mexico and Colombia, at least.
And some friends told me that it was possible to find "flanelinhas" in
many European cities in the 1970s, specially Portugal, Spain and
southern Italy, before the state regulated urban public parking. It was
rather unofficial, as far as I know, and I don't know if there were the
same stories of car-scratching.



B H wrote:

I think PETER PAN refers to my posting about crime/pickpocket aviodance
guide in a thread
further down here (rec.travel.latin-america).
I was the one who experienced the problem with the self-appointed
parking
attendant.
I think there are at least two kinds of parking attendants. Official
ones (I
think I have heard
that they have som kind of cloth or id to be sure they are official)
and
self-appointed ones.
The one I met certainly looked highly unofficial to say the least.
But from
there to say that
he is into some organised crime and mafia is taking it a bit far (but
of
course I do not know that).
Can anyone shed some light on the facts here? Are there official and
self-appointed parking
attendants, or just official ones in Rio? I think I know the answer,
but
would like a more
qualified statement than my own here.

Borge

"Kurko" wrote in message
news
3. In 3rd world countries there are JOBS like parking attendants.
These
guys have
actually licence to operate as such (atleast in Rio they do). There
is no
MAFIA involved here, just some people trying to get their livelihood
with
honest way (read
not robbing the tourists).

Simply because in normal daily life its next to impossible to encounter all
these
drug lords, thieves, muggers and murderes. In Rio more annoying are
beggars, shoeshiners and all kinds of sellers not to mention "samba bands".

Rio is very beautiful city (Cidade Maravilhosa), quite safe too for
tourists as long as you understand
and obey the "rule": Don't be stupid.

Kurko

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 21:40:02 -0500, clint wrote:

After reading all the Rio posts, why with all the wonderful places to go,
would anyone travel to Rio?

Lil' Pete!

You've made your point. What's bugging you? **** happens everywhere, my
buddy got
beaten up in Liverpool, England. Should we start looking for statistics of
violence
in there and tell everybody not to go to England anymore?

Face it faq, you ****ed up by being stupid. Stop blaming others on your own
stupidity. Take your responsibility!

Kurko

On 12 Mar 2004 17:08:52 -0800, P E T E R P A N
wrote:

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m.../article.jhtml

Hot in the city: crowded jails and drug economics push Latin American
cities to their limit on crime.

Latin Trade, Jan-Feb, 2003, by Mery Galanternick

On a recent Friday night, Fernando Gamma bumped his Ford Corsa into
another car in Copacabana. He called the police on his cellular phone
to report the crash so his insurance company would pay for the damage.
After 45 minutes, the police did not show. He called again. The voice
on the other side said: "Listen, mister, we're living in a chaotic
city with shootings everywhere. Yours is not a serious case. Please be
patient:'

A wave of violence has taken over this city Criminal gangs have forced
businesses, schools and banks to close and fired machine guns at the
governor's palace in Rio de Janeiro. A gang member threw a band
grenade at a large shopping center, and their members have assaulted
police stations and patrol cars.

It's hard all over the region, as weakening economies fuel drug and
crime waves. In Sao Paulo, the murder rate hit 1,000 per month in
2002. Crime in Buenos Aires has tripled since 1991, the decade of its
supposed economic advance. Mexico City, meanwhile, hired iron-fisted
ex-New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani to combat off-the-hook lawlessness
in the capital, where kidnapping has turned into an industry.

But violence in Rio is breaking scary new ground. On Sept. 30, known
as "Black Monday:' stores, banks, offices, schools and markets in this
city of 5.8 million were forced to close on orders of jailed drug
lords unhappy with their living conditions. It was the first time that
Copacabana and Ipanema neighborhoods in the posh south zone had
received lock down orders from gang leaders behind bars.

At Ipanema's fashionable Top Center building, retail store managers
blame violence for the sales slowdown. "Customers aren't coming to Rio
anymore; they are scared," says Marli Alves, manager of Gang, a store
that specializes in jeans.

Concerned with increasing chaos, Rio's 334,000-member Federacao do
Comercio issued a first-ever survey on security expenses for the
business community. In Rio's metropolitan area, companies now spend
US$56 million a month on security. Businesses spending the most are
jewelry stores, shopping centers and hotels.

"Violence permeates every major city, but when drug lords start giving
orders, this is not normal," says Alfredo Lopes, president of the
Brazilian Hotel Industry Association. Hotel occupation has fallen 15%
compared to a year ago, while Embratur, Brazil's Tourism Agency,
reports only 29% of foreigners traveling to Brazil visited Rio in
2001, compared to 41% a decade ago. A decline in traveling Argentines
and terrorism jitters have affected Rio, of course.

Fighting back. Despite the near state of siege in Rio, business
leaders are eager to point out that economic growth in metropolitan
Rio has not halted. Many multinationals have opened offices in Rio.
None of them have moved or closed doors because of crime--so far.

"We recently renovated the Sepetiba port. We're building a
petrochemical center' says Orlando Diniz, head of the Federacao do
Comercio. "We have good highways to distribute our products, and our
employees have a higher literacy


(JB) wrote in message
. com...
Peterpan,

you've seen a lot of crosstalk showing you the fact from basically two
different points of view, both were im my first post. Don't let some
harsh posts from some scb participants upset you. For some of them the
points I summarize below are so obvious that they are upset to find
somenone that ignores them.

First, don't walk after dark in any big city, unless you're looking
for trouble. It may be a valid advice even in your home town. Big
cities are, and have always been, a hideout for criminals because it's
the best place to be anonymous. Nighttime, again, is favourable to
such people. It seems you're kind of romantic and like to walk alone
at night, when everything looks different. But be realistic: it's not
wise to do it in big cities, dark and empty streets. That's what Kurko
meant whith "Actually these "thugs" should've removed you from the
genepool". The thugs were a lot wiser than you. They were exploring
"their" area as the spider inspects its net, and they are never alone.
You're very lucky. When I saw the list of cities where you walked by
at night I was astonished. For your information, I avoid Barata
Ribeiro (and many other places) at night, even by car.

Second, don't generalize, mainly when you're extending to a whole
country the impressions you've got from a big city at night. It's not
wise, again.

Brazil (and other countries as well) have thousands of fine places to
go and have big fun. Why do people insist in big cities, that look
almost the same all over the world. But if you really want to go,
don't forget the first paragraph.


(P E T E R P A N) wrote in message
m...
I walked many cities at night, including LA, San Francisco, New York,
Miami, London, Paris, Rome, Tokyo, Seoul, Bangkok, Singapore, Kuala
Lumpur, Denpasar, Jakarta, Buenos Aires, Montevideo ... without any
problems!
It is the stupid, nasty *sshole like you and dumb thugs, thieves,
robbers and the savages, who would p*ss on sidewalks and someone else'
cars on the busy streets of Rio in broad day light, who should be
removed from the gene pool! Stupid, ignorant nasty trash like you are
a shame and a grave threat for all mankind!
As everyone can see, this nasty guy Kurko confirms that Brazil is a
very unsafe, lawless place, populated by a lot of dumb savages like
himself. Visitors to Brazil, Rio and Sao Paolo, have a very high
probability of getting robbed or beaten. Don't expect local people to
help when you need it!
Kurko wrote in message
...
Hello!
Excuse me, but by all means who is such a stupid **** to walk
during the night in any major
city in the world.
Actually these "thugs" should've removed you from the genepool.
Kurko
On 7 Mar 2004 18:10:33 -0800, P E T E R P A N
wrote:
Dear JohnM,

For one thing, the entire incident happened very quickly, in a
matter
of 1 or 2 minutes. I was in fear for my life and I did not have a
lot
of time or in position to think of all alternative courses of
actions.
I just acted instinctively. This was the first time I faced
potential
violence in some 30 years. I was never in more fear, even in
downtown
Los Angeles, San Francisco or New York City at night! The local
Brazilians all think I was very lucky to escape death or serious
injuries that night!

You could have suggested precautions or solutions, rather than
trying
to pick holes in my story, which just shows that you are not
sympathetic to a lone tourist in distress, but are probably siding
with the thugs, victimizing unsuspecting preys! I do not believe
you
have good, unselfish motivations in this case!

When the initial thug confronted me, I had walked past the café a
few
houses. The customers were sitting inside the cafe due to the
rain. I
was roughly past the Hotel Mirasol with its large glass front
across
the street. When I glanced other thugs running toward me from
other
corners, a vision of my lifeless body lying in a pool of blood was
very clear in my head! Instinctlively I felt back tracking
towards
the café would put me closer to the incoming thugs. I pulled the
first
thug out to the middle of the street, roughly in front of the
hotel
Mirasol, and screamed "HELP, HELP, HELP…" but there were no
response
from anyone, anywhere. In a matter of seconds, I decided that "
POLICIA …" may work better and immediately started bellowing. I
had
to make quick decisions and ran fast basically to save my own
life. I
saw running cars with head lights on Rebata Reveiro and I quickly
ran
towards them.

When I rethink the whole incident, the closest hotel would have
been
the Mirasol, which would have staff in the lobby. But I am not
sure
if they would bother to open their door to assist a tourist in
distress. The Copacabana Hotel Residencia was definitely not
interested in helping or taking any actions. The police also acted
very casually, as if they ran into these violent incidents many
times
everyday. Despite the warm personality of the policemen and their
willingness to help, I had reservations that they could be
effective
after dealing with them. I had my distrust then, and I declined
to
get into their patrol cars for the search or to return to the
hotel!

A number of people, presumably with more experience in Brazil,
have
since written me private emails suggesting I skip Brazil. I found,
through my own experience, some serious flaws of characters in the
Brazilian people in Rio, such as the couple guys I found the first
day
who would pee openly on the streets in broad day light, sometimes
on
someone else cars' doors, right on very busy streets like Rebata
Reveiro or Copacabana. Every street in Copacabana stinks of urine
and
fresh sewage! These are bad things that happened in the best parts
of
Rio, not in the favela, where the impoverished residents may
deserve
excuses for their uncivil actions. I also found some disturbingly
bad
attitudes among various young, old, educated and wealthy
Brazilians in
Rio, Sao Paolo etc… which I will write down when I have time.

My opinions of Brazil and her people, after much reviews of the
events, facts and rationalizations, to be honest, very low. I do
not
stand to gain or lose anything by posting my information and
opinions
on Brazil. I do it only to inform fellow travelers. I advised a
new
friend in Rio, a pretty girl from Spain, against walking in the
rain
at night in Rio which she felt was romantic! A number of people
emailed me suggesting not walking in Rio at all!

Your attitude helps convince me firmly that Brazil is not on top
of
the list of countries I want to visit!


JohnM wrote in message
...
In article , P E
T E R
P A N writes

-- snip snip --

I had gotten out of the internet store late at night and stopped
to
buy cigarettes at a small coffee shop next door, which still had
a
dozen people, customers and waiters. As I walked out of the
shop, I
stopped on the sidewalk to lit a cigarette. That was when this
dark,
scruffy guy, wearing a white shirt, came out of nowhere, talking
to me
in Portugeese. I thought he wanted a cigarette so I offered him
the
pack. He ignored my offer, kept talking firmly and
threateiningly in
Portugeeze, repeating the phrase "No problem...". I moved out to
the
street. He blocked my way, grabbing and holding my shirt firmly
with
both hands. I pulled away, he refused to let go. At the same
time,
out of the corner of my eyes, I saw a few other guys running
toward us
from the dark street corners. The street was dark, wet and
deserted.
Suddenly there was noone on the street but the thugs.

-- snip snip --

Erm, continuity problem there, as my editor might say. Was the
street
wet, dark and deserted, despite the coffee-shop you had just
walked out
of with its dozen people inside? Why didn't you just walk back in
if the
guy attacked you 'as you walked out'?





--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

According to the articles I was able to pull out of the net on a quick
search, the organized crimes problems are far more serious in Brazil
than any big city in the world, with ambush and shoot outs of the
police, drug lords in prison ordering shut down of business, shcools,
banks, stores, shops, gas stations...in Rio, including the touristy
areas like Copacabana and Ipanema.

In this lawless situation, my feelings are that tourists have very
high probablity of being victims of violent crimes, or just caught in
the cross fires between the gangs with machine guns, grenades, and
police, compared to other cities.

By the way, the scenaries in Rio is much poorer than many places in
North America, Europe, Asia, the Caribbean...Rio is full of homeless,
undesirables people sleeping on the streets, watching tourists
intensely for the opportunities to commit crimes! Rio also reeks of
urine and feces on every street! In the scale of 0 to 10 on the fun
index, Rio is not even a 3 compared to Los Angeles, Las Vegas, San
Francisco, the Hawaii islands, the US Virgin Islands...!

I will stay away from Rio, so Kurko can happily kiss the drug lords'
*sses, obey their harsh rules, and enjoy that hell hole by himself!

Everyone is urged to come to the US to enjoy beautiful, pristine and
peaceful sceneries every season, every climate, from high mountains,
to deserts, to wide open oceans, with excellent outdoor and indoor
sports and recreations, with safe, clean, lively cities, with the best
varieties of great foods, and the company of friendly, fun, warm,
honest, civilized, law-abiding Americans!


Kurko wrote in message ...
Simply because in normal daily life its next to impossible to encounter all
these
drug lords, thieves, muggers and murderes. In Rio more annoying are
beggars, shoeshiners and all kinds of sellers not to mention "samba bands".

Rio is very beautiful city (Cidade Maravilhosa), quite safe too for
tourists as long as you understand
and obey the "rule": Don't be stupid.

Kurko

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 21:40:02 -0500, clint wrote:

After reading all the Rio posts, why with all the wonderful places to go,
would anyone travel to Rio?

Apparently V I E T T H I E T wrote:

These Italian citizens are permanent residents of West Palm Beach,
Florida, therefore they may be treated differently than residents of
Italy....

Why on earth would they travel on US documents, when their
Italian passports would let them go without visas?
Ridiculous.

They're probably about as Italian as your average New Yorker
[i.e. great-grandpa came over in 1897]

João Luiz wrote in message
z.tu-ilmenau.de...
P E T E R P A N schrieb:

I met some Italian tourists in Argentina who claimed they were charged
US$140 for the visa, which they promptly skipped! These Italian
tourists are wealthy and they could easily afford the visa fee. They
could easily spend US$3000 per person or more, 20 times the visa fees
on Brazilian products and services if they visit Brazil! However,
these Italians did not think highly of the Brazilian government by its
visa requirements, so they decide not to bother visiting Brazil.

Sorry to say, but this information is as false as it can be.
No citizen from the European Union needs a tourist visa for Brazil,
the same way no Brazilians need any tourist visa for any country
in the EU.

--
Ken Tough

clint wrote:

After reading all the Rio posts, why with all the wonderful places to go,
would anyone travel to Rio?

Because it makes a change from Habana? Viva Brasil!

--
Ken Tough