Reporting a fraud in Shanghai

BimmerBoy wrote:
Thanks for a very honest post. I think people who travel around the
world are at least middle class by NA standards so they don't see and
understand things that you saw, and are often, relatively,

I grew up very sheltered and didn't know anything about life until I
was maybe 15... this is mainly due to complete isolation from my peers.
I knew of things only as I saw them at school, and since I was
unpopular, I never got to know many of the other kids.

When I did get to know about life, I got to know it all at once. Where
I used to live in work was this bad neighbourhood, ironically, the same
place I went to junior high school. The elementary school was on the
good side of the tracks, the junior high was not. There are streets in
this city that divided rich from poor. I didn't actively live on the
streets, but some of my friends did. People I went to highschool with
grew up and lived the rest of their lives (to date) being dirt poor.
Because of my sheltered upbringing and complete distrust of everyone, I
cannot see myself being in a country and having my "heart melt" (as
another poster discribed) at something that strikes me as an obvious
threat. I also do not like children (generally speaking), so that might
change my perspective.

I will state for the record, according to Canadian standards, my
partner and I have an above middle-class income, but we've never grown
out of our cheap penny-pinching ways. I earn more per year than my
mother, and have a house that's comparable in value. My mother doesn't
work much, but gets paid more when she does, but overall, we earn the
same. You'd never know it... people would think I'm on welfare, and
they'd think she's a rich heiress with a trust account. I think that's
also made a difference in our chosen destinations. My mom vyes
vacations in Singapore and Hong Kong for shopping, and spending time in
Paris and other parts of Europe. My dream vacations include Greenland,
Scandanavia, Antarctica (laugh if you want, I can dream), and in the
real future, Siberia on the Trans-Siberian Railway. We have the money
to go first class and be safe, and we can afford a safe (yet expensive)
hotel, in a place where others go and don't spend much for the same
vacation.

psychologically disarmed. In parts of Europe (e.g. Bratislava) things
can be really really bad. It's just from 2nd degree personal experience

Bratislava was a joke on a movie I saw last night (Euro Trip)... but
thanks for using it as a reference. It puts things in perspective.

when someone in a tour group (went with parents) a few years ago got
pickpocketed and lost like $700 US cash and kept complaining about
this. Now what the hell would you be carrying $700 US in cash anyway in
your wallet for in East Europe?

Well, from my life's experence, I never carried only one wallet... in
fact, I never carried any wallet. My papers and money were always well
concealed into something that could not be removed from me all that
easily. (A belt under my sweater or something like that). And that's
just for travelling the US, which I've done so with some of the lower
classes of travellers (Greyhound). It's easier to deal with losing one
credit card than all of them, that's why I don't like wallets. I don't
know what things cost in East Europe... I couldn't say if that sounded
reasonable. I've never been anywhere yet that I couldn't use plastic,
and I do know in some countries credit card numbers will be stolen.

I also doubt if your looks would blend
you in in Eastern Europe unless you grew up there for a substantial
period of time. At least not to locals. And esp not wrt pickpockets!

Whenever I speak, it would be readily obvious... I know clothing is
often a dead give away, but I tend to dress in non-brand, non-descript
stuff. I travel with even more plain wardrobe, and it's very much in my
personality to shop for a whole new set of duds while travelling
because I like wearing that stuff around my own town (because it's
different than the trends).

Locals of any country even if you're from the same racial or ethnic
group have a way of identifying a travelling foreigner with such ease
with such finesse that you think they've undergone Olympic training or
something. And even if you speak the language without an accent - and
even if your mannerisms blend in etc, you are probably a target of
criminals and pickpockets - at least higher risk than another guy or
gal from the native local population by how you dress, how you walk the
walk, how you talk the talk wrt slang etc. There's probably little
escape.

True enough, but I guess it depends on the situation. The situation I
described with the kids throwing rocks at the car... Well if they are
blockading your passage and tossing rocks at you, I can't see any other
solution but to do what my partner said, just toss the coins and watch
them scatter. Even one coin would probably get them all running to see
"who gets to keep it". That being said, I might bring pennies with me
just for that occasion (or get some in their local currency, at least
they can spend them...) That tree hugging scam really freaked me out,
and my partner warned me I'd have to react fast to avoid being in the
situation of having a child glued to my leg making me uncomfortable and
causing a scene, or paying them to go away.

It's kind of easy to think about what you would do when you're not
doing it or faced with the situation...

Well, I've been faced with a few, and all I can say, I'm not a very
good victim. I can stay calm even when other people are or would be
freaking out. I figure that during robberies and other violent crime,
they expect a freaking out reaction, and I'm just not going to give
someone the satisfaction. Plenty of time to freak out later, in my
mind, it's do or die.

S.

Alfred Molon wrote:
across China, but I have never been pickpocketed in China. My personal
experience is that the Chinese are very honest people, except for this
hotel staff in Shanghai.

This may be so, that they are generally honest people... maybe more so
with each other. But I do know there are a lot of people in other
countries who do not like North Americans, and will try to cheat or
take advantage of us (since this includes me geographically), because
they can.

Some salon in Europe was trying to cheat my mom on the price of a hair
treatment... I don't know what she wanted, but it started at 20 euro,
and somehow they kept increasing the price until they freaked out on
her. She figured it's because she's North American (not sure if being
from Canada helps, but it might in some places), and there are
stereotypes in other places that North Americans will pay anything.

I can't speak for the US, but since I work in retail, all I can say is
you'd be surprised who's willing to throw their money away on useless
crap (usually people who can't afford to), and who bickers about how
outrageous the price is. I get the outrageous argument, although I
peddle with orders from the powers above. It's not like I have any say
in the matter. I often buy things mail order from the US, and even
after outrageous customs and duties it's still cheaper than buying it
in Canada.

As for your question, which I know you wanted an answer to before this
thread took a life of it's own... I don't now, since I'm only going to
China next year (Beijing and Hong Kong). I'll get to experience it
myself, but I'm surprisingly more relaxed about going there (a country
where I will not be able to read very many characters and speak very
little), than Russia, where I can actually read all the basic and
important signs.

S.

Sapphyre wrote:
BimmerBoy wrote:
Thanks for a very honest post. I think people who travel around the
world are at least middle class by NA standards so they don't see and
understand things that you saw, and are often, relatively,

I grew up very sheltered and didn't know anything about life until I
was maybe 15... this is mainly due to complete isolation from my peers.
I knew of things only as I saw them at school, and since I was
unpopular, I never got to know many of the other kids.

When I did get to know about life, I got to know it all at once. Where
I used to live in work was this bad neighbourhood, ironically, the same
place I went to junior high school. The elementary school was on the
good side of the tracks, the junior high was not. There are streets in
this city that divided rich from poor. I didn't actively live on the
streets, but some of my friends did. People I went to highschool with
grew up and lived the rest of their lives (to date) being dirt poor.
Because of my sheltered upbringing and complete distrust of everyone, I
cannot see myself being in a country and having my "heart melt" (as
another poster discribed) at something that strikes me as an obvious
threat. I also do not like children (generally speaking), so that might
change my perspective.

I will state for the record, according to Canadian standards, my
partner and I have an above middle-class income, but we've never grown
out of our cheap penny-pinching ways. I earn more per year than my
mother, and have a house that's comparable in value. My mother doesn't
work much, but gets paid more when she does, but overall, we earn the
same. You'd never know it... people would think I'm on welfare, and
they'd think she's a rich heiress with a trust account. I think that's
also made a difference in our chosen destinations. My mom vyes
vacations in Singapore and Hong Kong for shopping, and spending time in
Paris and other parts of Europe. My dream vacations include Greenland,
Scandanavia, Antarctica (laugh if you want, I can dream), and in the
real future, Siberia on the Trans-Siberian Railway. We have the money
to go first class and be safe, and we can afford a safe (yet expensive)
hotel, in a place where others go and don't spend much for the same
vacation.

psychologically disarmed. In parts of Europe (e.g. Bratislava) things
can be really really bad. It's just from 2nd degree personal experience

Bratislava was a joke on a movie I saw last night (Euro Trip)... but
thanks for using it as a reference. It puts things in perspective.

when someone in a tour group (went with parents) a few years ago got
pickpocketed and lost like $700 US cash and kept complaining about
this. Now what the hell would you be carrying $700 US in cash anyway in
your wallet for in East Europe?

Well, from my life's experence, I never carried only one wallet... in
fact, I never carried any wallet. My papers and money were always well
concealed into something that could not be removed from me all that
easily. (A belt under my sweater or something like that). And that's
just for travelling the US, which I've done so with some of the lower
classes of travellers (Greyhound). It's easier to deal with losing one
credit card than all of them, that's why I don't like wallets. I don't
know what things cost in East Europe... I couldn't say if that sounded
reasonable. I've never been anywhere yet that I couldn't use plastic,
and I do know in some countries credit card numbers will be stolen.

I also doubt if your looks would blend
you in in Eastern Europe unless you grew up there for a substantial
period of time. At least not to locals. And esp not wrt pickpockets!

Whenever I speak, it would be readily obvious... I know clothing is
often a dead give away, but I tend to dress in non-brand, non-descript
stuff. I travel with even more plain wardrobe, and it's very much in my
personality to shop for a whole new set of duds while travelling
because I like wearing that stuff around my own town (because it's
different than the trends).

Locals of any country even if you're from the same racial or ethnic
group have a way of identifying a travelling foreigner with such ease
with such finesse that you think they've undergone Olympic training or
something. And even if you speak the language without an accent - and
even if your mannerisms blend in etc, you are probably a target of
criminals and pickpockets - at least higher risk than another guy or
gal from the native local population by how you dress, how you walk the
walk, how you talk the talk wrt slang etc. There's probably little
escape.

True enough, but I guess it depends on the situation. The situation I
described with the kids throwing rocks at the car... Well if they are
blockading your passage and tossing rocks at you, I can't see any other
solution but to do what my partner said, just toss the coins and watch
them scatter. Even one coin would probably get them all running to see
"who gets to keep it". That being said, I might bring pennies with me
just for that occasion (or get some in their local currency, at least
they can spend them...) That tree hugging scam really freaked me out,
and my partner warned me I'd have to react fast to avoid being in the
situation of having a child glued to my leg making me uncomfortable and
causing a scene, or paying them to go away.

It's kind of easy to think about what you would do when you're not
doing it or faced with the situation...

Well, I've been faced with a few, and all I can say, I'm not a very
good victim. I can stay calm even when other people are or would be
freaking out. I figure that during robberies and other violent crime,
they expect a freaking out reaction, and I'm just not going to give
someone the satisfaction. Plenty of time to freak out later, in my
mind, it's do or die.

Boy!! talking about someone having a victim mentality. I don't know
where you grew up, but the world is not that bad. You know that there
is safety in number. You can always do things with your partner
together. China was and still is a land of fraud and deception, but
you are safe traveling around in China. They cheat in small amounts in
dealings, but they will not kill you or rob you.



S.

wrote:
Boy!! talking about someone having a victim mentality. I don't know
where you grew up, but the world is not that bad. You know that there
is safety in number. You can always do things with your partner
together. China was and still is a land of fraud and deception, but
you are safe traveling around in China. They cheat in small amounts in
dealings, but they will not kill you or rob you.

I have to tell you, I travelled to the US this past June, and did not
stay at any five star hotels or pay for any first class accommodations,
and I was actually surprised that people were friendly and selfless. I
know the US isn't always the safest place to be, depending on where you
are (even so far as what street you're walking down), but in my
experiences, even in some of the not-so-great places... It felt
reasonably safe.

I haven't ventured out to many of the places I want to go... yes, I
know about safety in numbers, which is partly why I'm going to China
and Russia (Mongolia too) with my partner. We can't always get vacation
at the same time and tend to do different things. My goal for the near
future (when travelling alone) is to see a lot of the western US for
it's landscape and beauty.

All I can say, is when I end up being surprised that people are kind to
me, a stranger, yeah, I do have the mentality that no one can be
trusted. That's not going to be easily changed.

S.

Sapphyre wrote:
BimmerBoy wrote:
Thanks for a very honest post. I think people who travel around the
world are at least middle class by NA standards so they don't see and
understand things that you saw, and are often, relatively,

I grew up very sheltered and didn't know anything about life until I
was maybe 15... this is mainly due to complete isolation from my peers.
I knew of things only as I saw them at school, and since I was
unpopular, I never got to know many of the other kids.

In other cases, university is always a mind-opening experience....


When I did get to know about life, I got to know it all at once. Where
I used to live in work was this bad neighbourhood, ironically, the same
place I went to junior high school. The elementary school was on the
good side of the tracks, the junior high was not. There are streets in
this city that divided rich from poor. I didn't actively live on the
streets, but some of my friends did. People I went to highschool with
grew up and lived the rest of their lives (to date) being dirt poor.
Because of my sheltered upbringing and complete distrust of everyone, I
cannot see myself being in a country and having my "heart melt" (as
another poster discribed) at something that strikes me as an obvious
threat. I also do not like children (generally speaking), so that might
change my perspective.

You're making me sound like a bleeding heart liberal on
soc.culture.china, where people implicitly accuse of me of being
'heartless', being a 'rich kid'. So soc.culture.china (and not the
infinitely more educated rec.travel.asia) wake up and listen up!
There's another world out there that you guys can't even begin to
imagine.


I will state for the record, according to Canadian standards, my
partner and I have an above middle-class income, but we've never grown
out of our cheap penny-pinching ways. I earn more per year than my
mother, and have a house that's comparable in value. My mother doesn't
work much, but gets paid more when she does, but overall, we earn the
same. You'd never know it... people would think I'm on welfare, and
they'd think she's a rich heiress with a trust account. I think that's
also made a difference in our chosen destinations. My mom vyes
vacations in Singapore and Hong Kong for shopping, and spending time in
Paris and other parts of Europe. My dream vacations include Greenland,
Scandanavia, Antarctica (laugh if you want, I can dream), and in the
real future, Siberia on the Trans-Siberian Railway. We have the money
to go first class and be safe, and we can afford a safe (yet expensive)
hotel, in a place where others go and don't spend much for the same
vacation.

Same with many mainland Chinese in their granddaddy mentality! Where do
they want to visit? NYC! Chicago! London! Paris! Moscow! Why? They're
not going there for themselves. No way! They're travelling in order to
brush up their resume. It's just as bad as driving a Mercedes vs a real
car, like a porsche or BMW with M package! The rest of us may want to
'discover that tiny little forgotten island in Thailand' etc, have that
treasured sense of inner peace, perhaps relive that sense of Tao even,
yet some are just so relentless in their quest for something, anything,
that they didn't have and to claim that they've been there and
therefore it's now theirs. Difference is ownership vs experience I
think.


psychologically disarmed. In parts of Europe (e.g. Bratislava) things
can be really really bad. It's just from 2nd degree personal experience

Bratislava was a joke on a movie I saw last night (Euro Trip)... but
thanks for using it as a reference. It puts things in perspective.


Never saw the movie but I can perhaps understand your point...

when someone in a tour group (went with parents) a few years ago got
pickpocketed and lost like $700 US cash and kept complaining about
this. Now what the hell would you be carrying $700 US in cash anyway in
your wallet for in East Europe?

Well, from my life's experence, I never carried only one wallet... in
fact, I never carried any wallet. My papers and money were always well
concealed into something that could not be removed from me all that
easily. (A belt under my sweater or something like that). And that's
just for travelling the US, which I've done so with some of the lower
classes of travellers (Greyhound). It's easier to deal with losing one
credit card than all of them, that's why I don't like wallets. I don't
know what things cost in East Europe... I couldn't say if that sounded
reasonable. I've never been anywhere yet that I couldn't use plastic,
and I do know in some countries credit card numbers will be stolen.


What do you mean you've never been anywhere. No offense but you seem to
be thinking like 1980s 3rd world Chinese!! Carrying multiple wallets?
Kinda like afraid of being kidnapped? It's like locking yourself in in
your house or car so you won't be kidnapped! Like gated communities to
be fair - are you locking people out or are you locking yourself in?

I also doubt if your looks would blend
you in in Eastern Europe unless you grew up there for a substantial
period of time. At least not to locals. And esp not wrt pickpockets!

Whenever I speak, it would be readily obvious... I know clothing is
often a dead give away, but I tend to dress in non-brand, non-descript
stuff. I travel with even more plain wardrobe, and it's very much in my
personality to shop for a whole new set of duds while travelling
because I like wearing that stuff around my own town (because it's
different than the trends).

Only the rich can afford to look poor. I go out in shorts and
flip-flops. Obscene enough for the 'club casual' crowd? Baha! Beat
that! (Or maybe I'm already poisoned)



Locals of any country even if you're from the same racial or ethnic
group have a way of identifying a travelling foreigner with such ease
with such finesse that you think they've undergone Olympic training or
something. And even if you speak the language without an accent - and
even if your mannerisms blend in etc, you are probably a target of
criminals and pickpockets - at least higher risk than another guy or
gal from the native local population by how you dress, how you walk the
walk, how you talk the talk wrt slang etc. There's probably little
escape.

True enough, but I guess it depends on the situation. The situation I
described with the kids throwing rocks at the car... Well if they are
blockading your passage and tossing rocks at you, I can't see any other
solution but to do what my partner said, just toss the coins and watch
them scatter. Even one coin would probably get them all running to see
"who gets to keep it". That being said, I might bring pennies with me
just for that occasion (or get some in their local currency, at least
they can spend them...) That tree hugging scam really freaked me out,
and my partner warned me I'd have to react fast to avoid being in the
situation of having a child glued to my leg making me uncomfortable and
causing a scene, or paying them to go away.


Though it is way more than possible that the more you throw them the
more kids will hug around you. Positive feedback. It's true, sometimes
you maybe saving yourself if you're tough.

It's kind of easy to think about what you would do when you're not
doing it or faced with the situation...

Well, I've been faced with a few, and all I can say, I'm not a very
good victim. I can stay calm even when other people are or would be
freaking out. I figure that during robberies and other violent crime,
they expect a freaking out reaction, and I'm just not going to give
someone the satisfaction. Plenty of time to freak out later, in my
mind, it's do or die.

S.

You're more respectable and you're a better person your way.

Alfred Molon wrote:
In article . com,
RichAsianKid says...

Not when compared to Brno or Prague, or Budapest, or Vienna, which are
all very close by. And you have to agree that Bratislava is way cheaper
(beer, for instance) than the other cities,

It is not way cheaper, at least not the hotels or restaurants. When have
you been there the last time?

Not true, in hotels they elevate themselves to international standards
so it's way more expensive in hotels...economic standards are prob so
uneven anyway.... yeah that's a few years ago, so maybe things have
changed since.

--

Alfred Molon
http://www.molon.de - Photos of Asia, Africa and Europe

In article . com,
RichAsianKid says...

Not when compared to Brno or Prague, or Budapest, or Vienna, which are
all very close by. And you have to agree that Bratislava is way cheaper
(beer, for instance) than the other cities,

It is not way cheaper, at least not the hotels or restaurants. When have
you been there the last time?
--

Alfred Molon
http://www.molon.de - Photos of Asia, Africa and Europe