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Unesco: Languages under threat



 
 
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  #21  
Old August 21st, 2006, 11:49 PM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.africa
Mxsmanic
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Posts: 5,830
Default Unesco: Languages under threat

Padraig Breathnach writes:

No. All you need is people capable of understanding it, and a
reasonable repository of instances of authentic usage.


And how does that provide special insight into the human psyche?

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Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
  #22  
Old August 21st, 2006, 11:58 PM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.africa
Hatunen
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Posts: 4,483
Default Unesco: Languages under threat

On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 23:41:17 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
wrote:

Mxsmanic wrote:

Padraig Breathnach writes:

Yes there is a point. For example, it can aid the understanding of the
human psyche.


Only if there is an active community speaking it.


No. All you need is people capable of understanding it, and a
reasonable repository of instances of authentic usage.


That's not saving a language; it takes a sort of critical mass of
native speakers to save a language. Unless they are native
speakers they will not truly understand the language anymore than
I could truly understand German, no matter how fluent I became.

Thousands of languages have died out over the millenia, from well
before the invention of writing, even, and only a few are of any
particular improtance today. Etruscan would be nice to know.

They say the island of New Guinea has hundreds of languages, but,
frankly, it really won't make a bit of difference if some of them
die out because the native speakers find English or some form
Asian language much more useful.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
  #23  
Old August 22nd, 2006, 12:16 AM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.africa
Padraig Breathnach
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Posts: 1,358
Default Unesco: Languages under threat

Mxsmanic wrote:

Padraig Breathnach writes:

No. All you need is people capable of understanding it, and a
reasonable repository of instances of authentic usage.


And how does that provide special insight into the human psyche?


A quick translation from An t-Oileánach, by Tomás O Criomhthain:
"I wrote in great detail about a lot of our doings so that there would
be a memory somewhere about them and I tried to give an account of the
mentality of the people around me so that it would be known after we
were gone, for the likes of us will never be again."

This was written about 80 years ago by an impoverished island dweller
off the west coast of Ireland who scratched a living from a small
holding and fishing from a currach, and who saw that his community was
on the road to final collapse. It was essential to his project that he
wrote in Gaelic (although he could write more easily in English)
because Gaelic was at the core of the mentality of the people that he
wished to record for posterity.

I'll take his view in preference to your Socratic questioning.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
My travel writing: http://www.iol.ie/~draoi/
  #24  
Old August 22nd, 2006, 12:32 AM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.africa
Padraig Breathnach
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Posts: 1,358
Default Unesco: Languages under threat

Hatunen wrote:

On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 23:41:17 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
wrote:

Mxsmanic wrote:

Padraig Breathnach writes:

Yes there is a point. For example, it can aid the understanding of the
human psyche.

Only if there is an active community speaking it.


No. All you need is people capable of understanding it, and a
reasonable repository of instances of authentic usage.


That's not saving a language; it takes a sort of critical mass of
native speakers to save a language.

There has been some rapid drift in the discussion. I have switched
focus on to the matter of how any language might have something to
contribute to human understanding.

Unless they are native
speakers they will not truly understand the language anymore than
I could truly understand German, no matter how fluent I became.

That might be true of you in your circumstances, but it is not a
universal pattern. Many Irish people speak Gaelic as a second language
and, because of the community in which we live, at least some of us
can "truly understand" it.

Thousands of languages have died out over the millenia, from well
before the invention of writing, even, and only a few are of any
particular improtance today. Etruscan would be nice to know.

And knowing it could contribute to our understanding.

They say the island of New Guinea has hundreds of languages, but,
frankly, it really won't make a bit of difference if some of them
die out because the native speakers find English or some form
Asian language much more useful.

This could move very quickly into the area of economics versus quality
of life. It's an important argument, but not one in which I wish to
engage in usenet, which seems to be populated by people who have very
definite views on such questions, and all of whom know best.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
My travel writing: http://www.iol.ie/~draoi/
  #25  
Old August 22nd, 2006, 12:48 AM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.africa
Hatunen
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Posts: 4,483
Default Unesco: Languages under threat

On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 00:32:03 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
wrote:

Hatunen wrote:

On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 23:41:17 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
wrote:

Mxsmanic wrote:

Padraig Breathnach writes:

Yes there is a point. For example, it can aid the understanding of the
human psyche.

Only if there is an active community speaking it.

No. All you need is people capable of understanding it, and a
reasonable repository of instances of authentic usage.


That's not saving a language; it takes a sort of critical mass of
native speakers to save a language.

There has been some rapid drift in the discussion. I have switched
focus on to the matter of how any language might have something to
contribute to human understanding.


And I'm disagreeing to the extent that it is a generality.

Unless they are native
speakers they will not truly understand the language anymore than
I could truly understand German, no matter how fluent I became.

That might be true of you in your circumstances, but it is not a
universal pattern. Many Irish people speak Gaelic as a second language
and, because of the community in which we live, at least some of us
can "truly understand" it.

Thousands of languages have died out over the millenia, from well
before the invention of writing, even, and only a few are of any
particular improtance today. Etruscan would be nice to know.

And knowing it could contribute to our understanding.


Which is why I mention it as an exception of a language it might
have been good to preserve.

They say the island of New Guinea has hundreds of languages, but,
frankly, it really won't make a bit of difference if some of them
die out because the native speakers find English or some form
Asian language much more useful.

This could move very quickly into the area of economics versus quality
of life. It's an important argument, but not one in which I wish to
engage in usenet, which seems to be populated by people who have very
definite views on such questions, and all of whom know best.


Excluding yourself, I presume.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
  #26  
Old August 22nd, 2006, 01:12 AM posted to rec.travel.africa
Dave Patterson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 74
Default Unesco: Languages under threat

Who are these people?
And why are they babbling back and forth in a newsgroup
that (in theory) deals with travel plans, issues, etc., in Africa?
Folks, we don't care what you think about:
A. each other
B. each other's opinions
C. each other's empty comments



  #27  
Old August 22nd, 2006, 05:15 AM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.africa
Mxsmanic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,830
Default Unesco: Languages under threat

Padraig Breathnach writes:

A quick translation from An t-Oileánach, by Tomás O Criomhthain:
"I wrote in great detail about a lot of our doings so that there would
be a memory somewhere about them and I tried to give an account of the
mentality of the people around me so that it would be known after we
were gone, for the likes of us will never be again."

This was written about 80 years ago by an impoverished island dweller
off the west coast of Ireland who scratched a living from a small
holding and fishing from a currach, and who saw that his community was
on the road to final collapse. It was essential to his project that he
wrote in Gaelic (although he could write more easily in English)
because Gaelic was at the core of the mentality of the people that he
wished to record for posterity.


There seems to be an English translation of it now. No need for
Gaelic any more. And one wonders what the interest of this small
island would be for anyone not on the small island.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
  #28  
Old August 22nd, 2006, 08:33 AM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.africa
Padraig Breathnach
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,358
Default Unesco: Languages under threat

Mxsmanic wrote:

Padraig Breathnach writes:

A quick translation from An t-Oileánach, by Tomás O Criomhthain:
"I wrote in great detail about a lot of our doings so that there would
be a memory somewhere about them and I tried to give an account of the
mentality of the people around me so that it would be known after we
were gone, for the likes of us will never be again."

This was written about 80 years ago by an impoverished island dweller
off the west coast of Ireland who scratched a living from a small
holding and fishing from a currach, and who saw that his community was
on the road to final collapse. It was essential to his project that he
wrote in Gaelic (although he could write more easily in English)
because Gaelic was at the core of the mentality of the people that he
wished to record for posterity.


There seems to be an English translation of it now.

There is, and has been for decades. The only copy to my hand was in
Gaelic.

No need for
Gaelic any more. And one wonders what the interest of this small
island would be for anyone not on the small island.

Nobody has lived permanently on the Great Blasket since 1953. Books
written by or about the island people still sell very well.and there
is a continuing scholarly interest in the Blasket community. So while
you wonder why people might be interested, they get on with actually
being interested in a way of living that resembles our own, but
differs in enough ways to give us material for reflection.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
My travel writing: http://www.iol.ie/~draoi/
  #29  
Old August 22nd, 2006, 09:38 AM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.africa
Dave Frightens Me
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Posts: 2,777
Default Unesco: Languages under threat

On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 00:49:58 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

Padraig Breathnach writes:

No. All you need is people capable of understanding it, and a
reasonable repository of instances of authentic usage.


And how does that provide special insight into the human psyche?


A Dutch team discovered a language somewhere in Asia I think where it
was impossible to mislead someone without directly lying, otherwise
the language would not be correct.

I think that could provide some special insight.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
  #30  
Old August 22nd, 2006, 09:43 AM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.africa
Padraig Breathnach
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Posts: 1,358
Default Unesco: Languages under threat

Dave Frightens Me wrote:

A Dutch team discovered a language somewhere in Asia I think where it
was impossible to mislead someone without directly lying, otherwise
the language would not be correct.

I think that could provide some special insight.

The mind boggles. I suspect most participants in discussion in this
group would be greatly handicapped by the use of such a language.

Except gRunge.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
My travel writing: http://www.iol.ie/~draoi/
 




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