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Knee Defender



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 15th, 2005, 02:24 PM
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Default Knee Defender

My wife and I flew Qantas on our Honeymoon trip to Australia in October
2005. The 14 1/2 hour flight from LA to Sydney is long and tiresome. The
WORST part about the entire flight was the two inconsiderate men in front of
us who insisted that they recline their seats fully during the entire
flight. The man in front of me kept banging his seat back even though it was
already up against my knees. I guess he thought that my femur length would
shorten eventually. He got out of his seat several times to examine the back
of his seat to see why it would not fully recline. He could see clearly that
my knees were up against his seat. The flight attendant had to ask these two
men to raise their seats so that we could eat our meals/snacks. I am not a
large person (6' 1", 220 lbs.) and I do not recline my seat as a matter of
courtesy. I have to wonder if using the "Knee Defender" on that flight would
have resulted in an altercation, thus adding more disappointment to an
already uncomfortable situation.
The above dilemma is a common complaint on the internet and is not limited
to any particular airline. A First Class ticket for this flight was $16,000
per person, Business Class $8,000 pp, Economy $1,500 pp. Clearly I am
financially forced to fly Economy, as are most. Is the airline industry
listening to all of the obvious complaints about seat spacing ? Do they care
?
  #2  
Old November 15th, 2005, 02:32 PM
Miss L. Toe
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Default Knee Defender


wrote in message
...
My wife and I flew Qantas on our Honeymoon trip to Australia in October
2005. The 14 1/2 hour flight from LA to Sydney is long and tiresome. The
WORST part about the entire flight was the two inconsiderate men in front

of
us who insisted that they recline their seats fully during the entire
flight. The man in front of me kept banging his seat back even though it

was
already up against my knees. I guess he thought that my femur length would
shorten eventually. He got out of his seat several times to examine the

back
of his seat to see why it would not fully recline. He could see clearly

that
my knees were up against his seat. The flight attendant had to ask these

two
men to raise their seats so that we could eat our meals/snacks. I am not a
large person (6' 1", 220 lbs.) and I do not recline my seat as a matter of
courtesy. I have to wonder if using the "Knee Defender" on that flight

would
have resulted in an altercation, thus adding more disappointment to an
already uncomfortable situation.
The above dilemma is a common complaint on the internet and is not limited
to any particular airline. A First Class ticket for this flight was

$16,000
per person, Business Class $8,000 pp, Economy $1,500 pp. Clearly I am
financially forced to fly Economy, as are most.


Is the airline industry
listening to all of the obvious complaints about seat spacing ? Do they

care
?


Yes, and yes, which is why more and more airlines are offering a premium
economy service, usually about 500-700 USD return more than economy, with
teh only difference being more knee room, and sometimes more elbow room.


  #3  
Old November 15th, 2005, 03:02 PM
Tchiowa
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Posts: n/a
Default Knee Defender


wrote:
My wife and I flew Qantas on our Honeymoon trip to Australia in October
2005. The 14 1/2 hour flight from LA to Sydney is long and tiresome. The
WORST part about the entire flight was the two inconsiderate men in front of
us who insisted that they recline their seats fully during the entire flight.


Wow!! How dare they use the seat that they paid for? What makes them
think that if they pay good money for a seat that reclines they are
actually allowed to recline and try to sleep? Disgusting.

The man in front of me kept banging his seat back even though it was
already up against my knees. I guess he thought that my femur length would
shorten eventually. He got out of his seat several times to examine the back
of his seat to see why it would not fully recline. He could see clearly that
my knees were up against his seat.


Let's explain something to the "knee whiners". The seats do not recline
from the floor. They recline from just about the level of the seat. If
you are sitting in a seat then your knees are 3-4 inches above that
level. Since the bottom of the seat in front of you is fixed when the
top of the seat is fully reclined the part by your knees only moves
about an inch.

The flight attendant had to ask these two
men to raise their seats so that we could eat our meals/snacks. I am not a
large person (6' 1", 220 lbs.) and I do not recline my seat as a matter of
courtesy.


That's your choice. And then you whine because the guy in front of you
won't let you make his choice for him. Maybe if you'd recline you could
get a bit more sleep and the flight wouldn't be so hard.

I have to wonder if using the "Knee Defender" on that flight would
have resulted in an altercation, thus adding more disappointment to an
already uncomfortable situation.


It might have got you arrested. The airlines don't allow it as it is a
safety hazard. If you used it the flight attendants would have told you
to take it out. If you refused you'd pay a serious price when the plane
landed.

Further it's kind of funny that you would complain about the seat
moving back an inch at the bottom and 5 inches at the top and you think
that the solution is to have your tray table down and in front of you
the entire time. The tray table is going to eat up more of your space
that the reclining seat would.

They only sense would be if you're promoting the Knee Defender hoping
that some idiot will buy it even though it an idiotic thing to do.

The above dilemma is a common complaint on the internet and is not limited
to any particular airline. A First Class ticket for this flight was $16,000
per person, Business Class $8,000 pp, Economy $1,500 pp. Clearly I am
financially forced to fly Economy, as are most. Is the airline industry
listening to all of the obvious complaints about seat spacing ? Do they care?


Was this a surprise for you? Did you think you were getting a First
Class seat when you paid for coach? If they cut out seats in order to
give you leg room would you pay $2,000 or would you whine about that?

You made the decision that cost was more important than space now you
want someone else to be responsible for your decision. The adult world
doesn't work that way.

And I don't know where you get your prices. I have flown round trip
SFO/Sydney Business Class on several occasions for about half what
you're claiming.

  #4  
Old November 15th, 2005, 04:37 PM
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Posts: n/a
Default Knee Defender

Tchiowa wrote:
wrote:

[snip]
The man in front of me kept banging his seat back even though it was
already up against my knees. I guess he thought that my femur length would
shorten eventually. He got out of his seat several times to examine the back
of his seat to see why it would not fully recline. He could see clearly that
my knees were up against his seat.


Let's explain something to the "knee whiners". The seats do not recline
from the floor. They recline from just about the level of the seat. If
you are sitting in a seat then your knees are 3-4 inches above that
level. Since the bottom of the seat in front of you is fixed when the
top of the seat is fully reclined the part by your knees only moves
about an inch.


Actually, I've noticed that seats do this a bit differently on
different
aircraft. Some, as you say, have a pivot point just about knee level.
However, some are articulated a bit and they have a "virtual"
pivot point a bit lower. However, the clearance between a knee
and a seat can be around one or two inches anyway. So there is
precious little room here. You have to be tall to get the full effect
though.
Legs vary in length even for the same overall height. I wouldn't have
though 6'1" was tall enough for this problem but there are many
variables.
[snip]

Further it's kind of funny that you would complain about the seat
moving back an inch at the bottom and 5 inches at the top and you think
that the solution is to have your tray table down and in front of you
the entire time. The tray table is going to eat up more of your space
that the reclining seat would.


Well, it won't "eat up" any space used by his knees. Furthermore,
it actually provides a usable space for drinks, books, food, etc.
I see people sleep on them.

They only sense would be if you're promoting the Knee Defender hoping
that some idiot will buy it even though it an idiotic thing to do.


There is a certain flavor here I'll admit.
[snip]

  #5  
Old November 15th, 2005, 04:41 PM
Nolo Contendre
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Posts: n/a
Default Knee Defender

Nice post. Unfortunately you will be getting a lot of grief from the
'full recline' crowd. Although I personally could not agree more with
your thoughts on the unfortunate circumstances of your flight.

You will hear that anyone, anywhere, flying at anytime, has the
complete right to go commando recline into your knees. And you are
expected to live with it. The logic here being that the seats recline,
ergo, any consideration for a passenger seated behind you is of no
consequence.

My own thought is should the airlines continue to advertise a seat
pitch of 32" when this can be reduced by two-thirds during the time
between take-off and landing.

With flights filled to near capacity these days, the airlines are way
late in addressing this issue. But there are some signs that progress
is being made - albeit slowly. AirCanada has a seat which pivots
forward as it reclines. Meaning that one reduces their leg room as the
seat reclines. Smart idea. Some European budget airlines are
installing seats which do not recline or do so with limitation.

Until progress is made your only option is to take your drink and
reading material and see if you can find a wall or partition to lean
against in the galley area or around a bulkhead (but not near the front
of the aircraft). Make a conscious effort to stay out of the way of
the FAs and they most likely leave you alone.

  #6  
Old November 15th, 2005, 05:25 PM
irwell
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Posts: n/a
Default Knee Defender

On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 13:24:09 GMT, wrote:

My wife and I flew Qantas on our Honeymoon trip to Australia in October
2005. The 14 1/2 hour flight from LA to Sydney is long and tiresome. The
WORST part about the entire flight was the two inconsiderate men in front of
us who insisted that they recline their seats fully during the entire
flight. The man in front of me kept banging his seat back even though it was
already up against my knees. I guess he thought that my femur length would
shorten eventually. He got out of his seat several times to examine the back
of his seat to see why it would not fully recline. He could see clearly that
my knees were up against his seat. The flight attendant had to ask these two
men to raise their seats so that we could eat our meals/snacks. I am not a
large person (6' 1", 220 lbs.) and I do not recline my seat as a matter of
courtesy. I have to wonder if using the "Knee Defender" on that flight would
have resulted in an altercation, thus adding more disappointment to an
already uncomfortable situation.
The above dilemma is a common complaint on the internet and is not limited
to any particular airline. A First Class ticket for this flight was $16,000
per person, Business Class $8,000 pp, Economy $1,500 pp. Clearly I am
financially forced to fly Economy, as are most. Is the airline industry
listening to all of the obvious complaints about seat spacing ? Do they care
?


Play cards all night. Nothing more annoying than having
someone behind you banging and shuffling playing cards.
Tit for tat!.
  #7  
Old November 15th, 2005, 06:40 PM
Frank F. Matthews
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Posts: n/a
Default Knee Defender

You have now restarted the knee wars. I am sure it was unintended but
let me provide a summary. Some folks will claim that since the seats
are capable of reclining you are required to have a quick surgery to
remove your knees and permit full recline for the snot in front. Others
will recommend some quick setting glue together with an early boarding
to lock the seat in front into place. Personally I recommend throwing
any publications in the seat back pocket onto the floor to get some
additional space and then placing a pillow in front of your knees to
prevent damage from any assaults.

Simply remember that the amusing antics of the occupants in front will
probably be the best entertainment available.

If you want to have some fun with the folks who claim that because the
seat is capable of reclining there is a right to recline it simply place
your feet on the top of the seat and extend them. You can then point
out that the seat is designed to fold and you clearly have a right to
have it folded.

wrote:

My wife and I flew Qantas on our Honeymoon trip to Australia in October
2005. The 14 1/2 hour flight from LA to Sydney is long and tiresome. The
WORST part about the entire flight was the two inconsiderate men in front of
us who insisted that they recline their seats fully during the entire
flight. The man in front of me kept banging his seat back even though it was
already up against my knees. I guess he thought that my femur length would
shorten eventually. He got out of his seat several times to examine the back
of his seat to see why it would not fully recline. He could see clearly that
my knees were up against his seat. The flight attendant had to ask these two
men to raise their seats so that we could eat our meals/snacks. I am not a
large person (6' 1", 220 lbs.) and I do not recline my seat as a matter of
courtesy. I have to wonder if using the "Knee Defender" on that flight would
have resulted in an altercation, thus adding more disappointment to an
already uncomfortable situation.
The above dilemma is a common complaint on the internet and is not limited
to any particular airline. A First Class ticket for this flight was $16,000
per person, Business Class $8,000 pp, Economy $1,500 pp. Clearly I am
financially forced to fly Economy, as are most. Is the airline industry
listening to all of the obvious complaints about seat spacing ? Do they care
?

  #8  
Old November 19th, 2005, 11:37 PM posted to rec.travel.air
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Posts: n/a
Default Knee Defender

On 15 Nov 2005 07:41:01 -0800, "Nolo Contendre"
wrote:

Nice post. Unfortunately you will be getting a lot of grief from the
'full recline' crowd. Although I personally could not agree more with
your thoughts on the unfortunate circumstances of your flight.

You will hear that anyone, anywhere, flying at anytime, has the
complete right to go commando recline into your knees. And you are
expected to live with it. The logic here being that the seats recline,
ergo, any consideration for a passenger seated behind you is of no
consequence.



When someone in front of me tries to recline onto or through my knees,
I simply lean over the seat and (politely) point out that the
resistance they are trying to force their seat past is my knees. For
most grown-ups, this is more than adequate, they usually apologize and
move their seat up off my patellas.

For those that insist on shoving their seat into my lap, I just move
about a lot..since my knees are in forced contact with their seat,
they get jostled rather a lot as I refuse to go into a coma or trance
and cease all movement just to avoid disturbing their slumber...this
usually has the desired effect of them moving their seat off my legs
by an inch or so.

Your rights end where my rights begin, I have the right to scream as
loud as i want but I do not have the right to force you to listern to
me doing so.

I always check behind me before I recline to make sure I am not about
to do the same to someone else and I religiously use the various
seating guides to try and find the seats with the most legroom.

It's not even a matter of Ameerican's getting fat..people have beng
rowing taler since the Renaisance due to improved nutrition and
health, the airlines and most public transit designers simply have
other priorities they use than providing comfort and reasonable space.

On some airlines, there is just no damn room between seats and I have
sat on some where even when the seats were fully upright, my knees
were wedged into the seat back ahead of me (I'm 6'2 and change with
not unusually long legs, so it's the airline, not me.)

Jim P.
  #9  
Old November 20th, 2005, 01:36 AM posted to rec.travel.air
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Default Knee Defender

Good comments. And am a standard 5' 10" male and have had more than my
share of banged knees. I can live with the airlines crunching their
seats together until movement is next to impossible. But I object to
airlines leaving the seat recline as if they believe that their flights
are only half full. It has been my experience that the passengers who
decide to take advantage of the recline could care less about how that
impedes on the individual sitting behind them.

  #10  
Old November 20th, 2005, 08:43 AM posted to rec.travel.air
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Posts: n/a
Default Knee Defender


Frank F. Matthews wrote:
You have now restarted the knee wars. I am sure it was unintended but
let me provide a summary. Some folks will claim that since the seats
are capable of reclining you are required to have a quick surgery to
remove your knees


Or simply instead of sitting up straight and rigid like you're afraid
that the FA is a school marm you can relax and put you feet under the
seat in front of you. Knee problem goes away.

and permit full recline for the snot in front.


These kinds of arguments are so easy to win because the proponents of
the "I have a right to control all the seats around me" philosophy
always seem to take a juvenile attitude or believe that everyone else
on the plane is less than human. As proven by your reference to the
other passengers as "snot".

If you want to have some fun with the folks who claim that because the
seat is capable of reclining there is a right to recline it simply place
your feet on the top of the seat and extend them. You can then point
out that the seat is designed to fold and you clearly have a right to
have it folded.


Further proof of your attitude. If the guy in front of you wants to
sleep but you don't want him to sleep, assault him.

Now for some adult analysis of what you just said. If *YOU* want to
fold *YOUR* seat up, go ahead. If the guy in front of you wants to fold
*HIS* seat up, he can. But *YOU* can't fold *HIS* seat up nor can you
tell him that *YOU* can decide whether or not *HE* reclines *HIS* seat.

Do you understand the difference?

 




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