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#1
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Knee Defender
My wife and I flew Qantas on our Honeymoon trip to Australia in October
2005. The 14 1/2 hour flight from LA to Sydney is long and tiresome. The WORST part about the entire flight was the two inconsiderate men in front of us who insisted that they recline their seats fully during the entire flight. The man in front of me kept banging his seat back even though it was already up against my knees. I guess he thought that my femur length would shorten eventually. He got out of his seat several times to examine the back of his seat to see why it would not fully recline. He could see clearly that my knees were up against his seat. The flight attendant had to ask these two men to raise their seats so that we could eat our meals/snacks. I am not a large person (6' 1", 220 lbs.) and I do not recline my seat as a matter of courtesy. I have to wonder if using the "Knee Defender" on that flight would have resulted in an altercation, thus adding more disappointment to an already uncomfortable situation. The above dilemma is a common complaint on the internet and is not limited to any particular airline. A First Class ticket for this flight was $16,000 per person, Business Class $8,000 pp, Economy $1,500 pp. Clearly I am financially forced to fly Economy, as are most. Is the airline industry listening to all of the obvious complaints about seat spacing ? Do they care ? |
#2
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Knee Defender
wrote in message ... My wife and I flew Qantas on our Honeymoon trip to Australia in October 2005. The 14 1/2 hour flight from LA to Sydney is long and tiresome. The WORST part about the entire flight was the two inconsiderate men in front of us who insisted that they recline their seats fully during the entire flight. The man in front of me kept banging his seat back even though it was already up against my knees. I guess he thought that my femur length would shorten eventually. He got out of his seat several times to examine the back of his seat to see why it would not fully recline. He could see clearly that my knees were up against his seat. The flight attendant had to ask these two men to raise their seats so that we could eat our meals/snacks. I am not a large person (6' 1", 220 lbs.) and I do not recline my seat as a matter of courtesy. I have to wonder if using the "Knee Defender" on that flight would have resulted in an altercation, thus adding more disappointment to an already uncomfortable situation. The above dilemma is a common complaint on the internet and is not limited to any particular airline. A First Class ticket for this flight was $16,000 per person, Business Class $8,000 pp, Economy $1,500 pp. Clearly I am financially forced to fly Economy, as are most. Is the airline industry listening to all of the obvious complaints about seat spacing ? Do they care ? Yes, and yes, which is why more and more airlines are offering a premium economy service, usually about 500-700 USD return more than economy, with teh only difference being more knee room, and sometimes more elbow room. |
#3
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Knee Defender
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#4
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Knee Defender
Tchiowa wrote:
wrote: [snip] The man in front of me kept banging his seat back even though it was already up against my knees. I guess he thought that my femur length would shorten eventually. He got out of his seat several times to examine the back of his seat to see why it would not fully recline. He could see clearly that my knees were up against his seat. Let's explain something to the "knee whiners". The seats do not recline from the floor. They recline from just about the level of the seat. If you are sitting in a seat then your knees are 3-4 inches above that level. Since the bottom of the seat in front of you is fixed when the top of the seat is fully reclined the part by your knees only moves about an inch. Actually, I've noticed that seats do this a bit differently on different aircraft. Some, as you say, have a pivot point just about knee level. However, some are articulated a bit and they have a "virtual" pivot point a bit lower. However, the clearance between a knee and a seat can be around one or two inches anyway. So there is precious little room here. You have to be tall to get the full effect though. Legs vary in length even for the same overall height. I wouldn't have though 6'1" was tall enough for this problem but there are many variables. [snip] Further it's kind of funny that you would complain about the seat moving back an inch at the bottom and 5 inches at the top and you think that the solution is to have your tray table down and in front of you the entire time. The tray table is going to eat up more of your space that the reclining seat would. Well, it won't "eat up" any space used by his knees. Furthermore, it actually provides a usable space for drinks, books, food, etc. I see people sleep on them. They only sense would be if you're promoting the Knee Defender hoping that some idiot will buy it even though it an idiotic thing to do. There is a certain flavor here I'll admit. [snip] |
#5
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Knee Defender
Nice post. Unfortunately you will be getting a lot of grief from the
'full recline' crowd. Although I personally could not agree more with your thoughts on the unfortunate circumstances of your flight. You will hear that anyone, anywhere, flying at anytime, has the complete right to go commando recline into your knees. And you are expected to live with it. The logic here being that the seats recline, ergo, any consideration for a passenger seated behind you is of no consequence. My own thought is should the airlines continue to advertise a seat pitch of 32" when this can be reduced by two-thirds during the time between take-off and landing. With flights filled to near capacity these days, the airlines are way late in addressing this issue. But there are some signs that progress is being made - albeit slowly. AirCanada has a seat which pivots forward as it reclines. Meaning that one reduces their leg room as the seat reclines. Smart idea. Some European budget airlines are installing seats which do not recline or do so with limitation. Until progress is made your only option is to take your drink and reading material and see if you can find a wall or partition to lean against in the galley area or around a bulkhead (but not near the front of the aircraft). Make a conscious effort to stay out of the way of the FAs and they most likely leave you alone. |
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Knee Defender
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#8
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Knee Defender
On 15 Nov 2005 07:41:01 -0800, "Nolo Contendre"
wrote: Nice post. Unfortunately you will be getting a lot of grief from the 'full recline' crowd. Although I personally could not agree more with your thoughts on the unfortunate circumstances of your flight. You will hear that anyone, anywhere, flying at anytime, has the complete right to go commando recline into your knees. And you are expected to live with it. The logic here being that the seats recline, ergo, any consideration for a passenger seated behind you is of no consequence. When someone in front of me tries to recline onto or through my knees, I simply lean over the seat and (politely) point out that the resistance they are trying to force their seat past is my knees. For most grown-ups, this is more than adequate, they usually apologize and move their seat up off my patellas. For those that insist on shoving their seat into my lap, I just move about a lot..since my knees are in forced contact with their seat, they get jostled rather a lot as I refuse to go into a coma or trance and cease all movement just to avoid disturbing their slumber...this usually has the desired effect of them moving their seat off my legs by an inch or so. Your rights end where my rights begin, I have the right to scream as loud as i want but I do not have the right to force you to listern to me doing so. I always check behind me before I recline to make sure I am not about to do the same to someone else and I religiously use the various seating guides to try and find the seats with the most legroom. It's not even a matter of Ameerican's getting fat..people have beng rowing taler since the Renaisance due to improved nutrition and health, the airlines and most public transit designers simply have other priorities they use than providing comfort and reasonable space. On some airlines, there is just no damn room between seats and I have sat on some where even when the seats were fully upright, my knees were wedged into the seat back ahead of me (I'm 6'2 and change with not unusually long legs, so it's the airline, not me.) Jim P. |
#9
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Knee Defender
Good comments. And am a standard 5' 10" male and have had more than my
share of banged knees. I can live with the airlines crunching their seats together until movement is next to impossible. But I object to airlines leaving the seat recline as if they believe that their flights are only half full. It has been my experience that the passengers who decide to take advantage of the recline could care less about how that impedes on the individual sitting behind them. |
#10
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Knee Defender
Frank F. Matthews wrote: You have now restarted the knee wars. I am sure it was unintended but let me provide a summary. Some folks will claim that since the seats are capable of reclining you are required to have a quick surgery to remove your knees Or simply instead of sitting up straight and rigid like you're afraid that the FA is a school marm you can relax and put you feet under the seat in front of you. Knee problem goes away. and permit full recline for the snot in front. These kinds of arguments are so easy to win because the proponents of the "I have a right to control all the seats around me" philosophy always seem to take a juvenile attitude or believe that everyone else on the plane is less than human. As proven by your reference to the other passengers as "snot". If you want to have some fun with the folks who claim that because the seat is capable of reclining there is a right to recline it simply place your feet on the top of the seat and extend them. You can then point out that the seat is designed to fold and you clearly have a right to have it folded. Further proof of your attitude. If the guy in front of you wants to sleep but you don't want him to sleep, assault him. Now for some adult analysis of what you just said. If *YOU* want to fold *YOUR* seat up, go ahead. If the guy in front of you wants to fold *HIS* seat up, he can. But *YOU* can't fold *HIS* seat up nor can you tell him that *YOU* can decide whether or not *HE* reclines *HIS* seat. Do you understand the difference? |
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