Flight Change Nonsense

On Nov 27, 4:17 am, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:
4 weeks ago, I booked a round trip LON to CPH with SAS for the second week
in Dec, using my LH M&M points.

This weekend, I get a call from LH telling me that the flight is cancelled
and I have to transfer onto an alternative and they give me a choice of the
last flight of the day (which potentially leaves me stranded in CPH with no
onward connection to my local apartment) or an early flight requiring me to
start at 5:30 in the morning (I know that some people do this happily, but I
don't).

I protest that there are other flights with availability, but I am told that
since I booked with LH I am only entitled to move on to a flight that LH
still have an allocation on.

I think that sucks. If I wanted to have to choose from the crappy flights I
wouldn't have booked 7 weeks ahead. My view is that it is SAS who have
cancelled the flight, so it is SAS that should rebook me from their
allocation and not bounce the problem back to LH.

Guess which airline will not be getting any more of my business whilst I am
working here?

Sorry, Tim, but you got fair treatment. You got a free ticket from LH.
SAS doesn't owe you. This is the problem with free flights. One of the
problems. You just need to get used to it.

On Nov 27, 7:06 am, "John" wrote:
"tim (not at home)" wrote in ...





4 weeks ago, I booked a round trip LON to CPH with SAS for the second week
in Dec, using my LH M&M points.

This weekend, I get a call from LH telling me that the flight is cancelled
and I have to transfer onto an alternative and they give me a choice of
the last flight of the day (which potentially leaves me stranded in CPH
with no onward connection to my local apartment) or an early flight
requiring me to start at 5:30 in the morning (I know that some people do
this happily, but I don't).

I protest that there are other flights with availability, but I am told
that since I booked with LH I am only entitled to move on to a flight that
LH still have an allocation on.

I think that sucks. If I wanted to have to choose from the crappy flights
I wouldn't have booked 7 weeks ahead. My view is that it is SAS who have
cancelled the flight, so it is SAS that should rebook me from their
allocation and not bounce the problem back to LH.

Guess which airline will not be getting any more of my business whilst I
am working here?

tim

I'm 50 years old and never flown anywhere and I'm not bothered if I ever do
(started to "go abroad" for holidays 17 years ago but prefer the convenience
of driving into europe - you get to bring back an entire bootful of booze
)) but it always rankles me that people who fly often get the chance (via
points, frequent-flyer miles or whatever) to fly more, so that people who
have to fly a lot for business (paid for by the company) then get the
"perks" or "bonus" of flying privately for pleasure.

It seems to me that it should be people who can't otherwise afford to fly
anywhere who should get the breaks as it could well be a "once in a
lifetime" experience for them.

Sorry, but that makes no sense. Regular flyers earn the privileges.
The airlines give regular flyers better treatment to help get their
business.

Why should the once in a lifetime flyer get the benefits effectively
paid for by the frequent flyer?

Craig is right. Your Socialist dream is a nightmare.

On Nov 27, 1:55 pm, george wrote:
On Nov 26, 10:17 pm, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:





4 weeks ago, I booked a round trip LON to CPH with SAS for the second week
in Dec, using my LH M&M points.

This weekend, I get a call from LH telling me that the flight is cancelled
and I have to transfer onto an alternative and they give me a choice of the
last flight of the day (which potentially leaves me stranded in CPH with no
onward connection to my local apartment) or an early flight requiring me to
start at 5:30 in the morning (I know that some people do this happily, but I
don't).

I protest that there are other flights with availability, but I am told that
since I booked with LH I am only entitled to move on to a flight that LH
still have an allocation on.

I think that sucks. If I wanted to have to choose from the crappy flights I
wouldn't have booked 7 weeks ahead. My view is that it is SAS who have
cancelled the flight, so it is SAS that should rebook me from their
allocation and not bounce the problem back to LH.

Guess which airline will not be getting any more of my business whilst I am
working here?

tim

That's what you get when you use a free frequent flyer ticket, you
think that they would want to treat a good customer well, but it's all
about money, and you didn't pay any for that flight.

I quit using any of my frequent flyer miles because of an incident
with BA in Chicago years ago. Because of a snow storm I was told that
I would have to wait at the earliest 5 days before leaving. As I had
to be back at work, I talked to an agent on their 800 number who
recognized my last name and mentioned that he knew my daughter and had
lived down the street from us years before. Therefore, I probably got
better service, and managed to catch a BA flight to London from
Houston that would connect with my on-going flight home from there,
the necessary flight from Las Vegas to Houston at my expense, and
getting a last minute ticket isn't cheap. I just felt lucky to get
home on time, and after realizing how horribly they treat you on a
free ticket, I than just gave my mileage to the rest of the family to
use if they wanted it. The actual cost of such a long delay and
making alternative travel arrangements can be many times the value of
the ticket if you had purchased it in the first place. I haven't
flown BA since!!!!!

OK, my turn for a FF nightmare.

About 15 years ago I got a free FF R/T to Bangkok from Delta. While I
was in Chiang Mai I got in a car accident (tour bus rollover). I was
banged up, but OK. A lot of internal pain. After a day in a Thai
hospital I decided I wanted to go home to SF to see my doctor. I went
back to Bangkok and checked into a hotel because it was too late to
get a flight home. This was on a Monday. I called Delta on Tuesday
and told them the situation. I had a flight on Friday but wanted to
move it to Tuesday. The lady in the phone asked all the right
questions (did I have my hospital release, etc.) and I could hear her
typing over the phone. She said there were seats available. She
started making the booking change and then stopped and said "I'm
sorry, sir, but you're on a frequent flyer ticket. The FF seats are
all full. We can sell you a ticket (full fare, of course) on the
Tuesday flight but we can't let you use your FF ticket.". Capacity
control.

I stayed in the hotel almost unable to move for 3 days until Friday.

Last Delta flight.

The kicker is that with tickets like this, not only are we Frequent
Flyers, but a lot of it. I had around 200,000 miles on Delta at the
time. You'd think they'd bend over to help.

They don't.

On Nov 27, 10:15 am, Craig Welch wrote:
george said:





I quit using any of my frequent flyer miles because of an incident
with BA in Chicago years ago. Because of a snow storm I was told that
I would have to wait at the earliest 5 days before leaving. As I had
to be back at work, I talked to an agent on their 800 number who
recognized my last name and mentioned that he knew my daughter and had
lived down the street from us years before. Therefore, I probably got
better service, and managed to catch a BA flight to London from
Houston that would connect with my on-going flight home from there,
the necessary flight from Las Vegas to Houston at my expense, and
getting a last minute ticket isn't cheap. I just felt lucky to get
home on time, and after realizing how horribly they treat you on a
free ticket, I than just gave my mileage to the rest of the family to
use if they wanted it. The actual cost of such a long delay and
making alternative travel arrangements can be many times the value of
the ticket if you had purchased it in the first place. I haven't
flown BA since!!!!!

'How horribly they treat you ...'

Indeed. How dare they allow snowstorms!

It's not the snow storm, but how you're treated as a nobody with a
free ticket. The flight I was actually ticketed for left on time, but
with the day before's passengers. With any paid ticket I could have
bought instead of the frequent flyer flight, I could have gone to any
other airline flying the route, and gotten a seat. Have you ever
priced a 5 day hotel stay in a city you don't want to be in, a week's
lost vacation and/or wages, and no guarantee that after waiting the 5
days that they wouldn't pull the same thing again. I'm sure that
their priorities were the passengers paying the highest fares first,
and then down to the $0 folks. Much like my last minute flight from
Las Vegas to Houston, where because of my high fare I was guaranteed a
seat. No one was bumped then, but only because several people opted
to stay another day in Las Vegas at the airline's expense. And if my
original flight between Las Vegas and Chicago could not have arrived
there on time because of the storm and BA flew, it would have
invalidated my ticket and meant me purchasing a new last minute one
way ticket between Chicago and Saudi Arabia, certainly not cheap!

Once you realize all the possible financial consequences of a frequent
flyer ticket, they may not be worth it if you have to arrive at your
destination on time.

George

"Tchiowa" wrote in message
...
On Nov 27, 7:06 am, "John" wrote:
"tim (not at home)" wrote in
...





4 weeks ago, I booked a round trip LON to CPH with SAS for the second
week
in Dec, using my LH M&M points.

This weekend, I get a call from LH telling me that the flight is
cancelled
and I have to transfer onto an alternative and they give me a choice of
the last flight of the day (which potentially leaves me stranded in CPH
with no onward connection to my local apartment) or an early flight
requiring me to start at 5:30 in the morning (I know that some people
do
this happily, but I don't).

I protest that there are other flights with availability, but I am told
that since I booked with LH I am only entitled to move on to a flight
that
LH still have an allocation on.

I think that sucks. If I wanted to have to choose from the crappy
flights
I wouldn't have booked 7 weeks ahead. My view is that it is SAS who
have
cancelled the flight, so it is SAS that should rebook me from their
allocation and not bounce the problem back to LH.

Guess which airline will not be getting any more of my business whilst
I
am working here?

tim

I'm 50 years old and never flown anywhere and I'm not bothered if I ever
do
(started to "go abroad" for holidays 17 years ago but prefer the
convenience
of driving into europe - you get to bring back an entire bootful of booze
)) but it always rankles me that people who fly often get the chance
(via
points, frequent-flyer miles or whatever) to fly more, so that people who
have to fly a lot for business (paid for by the company) then get the
"perks" or "bonus" of flying privately for pleasure.

It seems to me that it should be people who can't otherwise afford to fly
anywhere who should get the breaks as it could well be a "once in a
lifetime" experience for them.

Sorry, but that makes no sense. Regular flyers earn the privileges.
The airlines give regular flyers better treatment to help get their
business.

Why should the once in a lifetime flyer get the benefits effectively
paid for by the frequent flyer?

Craig is right. Your Socialist dream is a nightmare.

Most regular flyers don't *earn* the privileges. They are on business, being
paid a monthly salary or whatever by their company. Even when they're sat in
their seat on the aircraft (a seat paid for by their company, btw) they are
"on salary" or "on works time" so if, as you say, the airlines give better
treatment to help get their business, any "privileges" should be given to
the company, not the individual person flying.

It still strikes me as being grossly unfair that someone should get free
flights to use personally for pleasure, merely because of the fact that they
have to fly a lot because of the job they do.

John

On 26 Nov, 21:17, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:
4 weeks ago, I booked a round trip LON to CPH with SAS for the second week
in Dec, using my LH M&M points.

This weekend, I get a call from LH telling me that the flight is cancelled
and I have to transfer onto an alternative and they give me a choice of the
last flight of the day (which potentially leaves me stranded in CPH with no
onward connection to my local apartment) or an early flight requiring me to
start at 5:30 in the morning (I know that some people do this happily, but I
don't).

I protest that there are other flights with availability, but I am told that
since I booked with LH I am only entitled to move on to a flight that LH
still have an allocation on.

I think that sucks. If I wanted to have to choose from the crappy flights I
wouldn't have booked 7 weeks ahead. My view is that it is SAS who have
cancelled the flight, so it is SAS that should rebook me from their
allocation and not bounce the problem back to LH.

Guess which airline will not be getting any more of my business whilst I am
working here?

My advice: use your miles for something else, not flights.
Theoretically flights are the commodity the airline can offer you most
value for your points, as the margin to them is negligible. But these
days you may be lucky to even get a flight at all with points, given
the reduced allocation of these non-revenue seats. So FF points are
like any other loyalty program (e.g. Tescos). And if you do get a
flight, the scope for more aggravation is very high.

If you use your points for something else, you are at least costing
the airline more money..








tim

wrote:
If you use your points for something else, you are at least
costing the airline more money..

Oh, now there's a /bright/ idea. Nevermind the fact that
you are going to pay more in point-value for the item than
what it would cost by buying from the vendor and possibly
more than its actual value... just as long as you stick it to
the airline.

On Nov 27, 7:34 am, "John" wrote:
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
[snip]
Most regular flyers don't *earn* the privileges.

I don't?

They are on business, being
paid a monthly salary or whatever by their company.

Even when it is outside of "normal business hours" which is
when the vast majority of my travel occurs? When I am asked to
work "excessive" or "exceptional" overtime, I am often given
additional compensation. I'm never compensated in any additional
way for travel time which occurs outside of normal business hours.

Even when they're sat in
their seat on the aircraft (a seat paid for by their company, btw) they are
"on salary"

Well, yeah, in some sense I'm "on salary" when I sleep. But I
would expect additional compensation if they started "taking" my
sleep time as well. Frequently for me travel time occurs during
otherwise "normal" sleeping hours. I receive no additional
compensation.

or "on works time" so if, as you say, the airlines give better
treatment to help get their business, any "privileges" should be given to
the company, not the individual person flying.

Well, actually, our company does have volume agreements with
some airlines. We also have "privileges" for the travelers which
the company negotiates on our behalf (mostly having to do with
change fees and upgrade privileges).

It still strikes me as being grossly unfair that someone should get free
flights to use personally for pleasure, merely because of the fact that they
have to fly a lot because of the job they do.

I guess you'd have to say "as compared to what"? I know guys
that work for construction companies. On weekends, when the
companies aren't working, the guys "borrow" all manner of expensive
equipment to do private projects. Mostly on their own homes or
whatever, but more than one has used it to help out his own "side
business". I can't borrow this equipment. Is this unfair?

Our company has a set of "box seat" tickets to the local
sports franchise. Through various means, when the company
isn't using them, employees can use them, including taking
friends and family. Is this unfair?

Airline employees and their families can fly at greatly reduced
prices. Airline pilots fly virtually free in the cockpit jump seat.
Is this fair?

Jobs come with "perks". Some more formal than others.
Maybe it's the cop that takes his patrol car home, the salesman
that uses his cell phone for personal calls, the business pager
that the wife calls, and on and on. I'm not sure what makes
FF miles particularly "unfair" especially considering the impact
all that travel makes on the truly "frequent" fliers lives.

On Nov 27, 12:48 am, "Donald Newcomb"
wrote:
"tim (not at home)" wrote in ...
[snip]
This weekend, I get a call from LH telling me that the flight is cancelled
and I have to transfer onto an alternative

When one considers the massive unfunded liability represented by frequent
flyer programs, I consider it just amazing that anyone actually ever gets to
fly anywhere using points. The airlines will have to find some way to weasel
out of honoring their promises to their frequent flyer club members. If
everyone tried to use those points the airlines would all go TU overnight.

At this point most FF programs are profit centers for the
airlines. Some
are now considering spinning off the programs as separate entities.
They manage to limit their liability by limiting their availability.
I've
all but given up on the loyalty programs because of the inability to
get
flights in and out of this tourist destination in which I live. I
allow the
points to accumulate, and at best cash them in on upgrades. Every
once and a bit I find some flight I can use them on. We burned a
bunch of Delta by going ahead and using the "double miles" option.
They were just wasting away so what the heck. Because we spent
so many, we were booked into FC for the intracontinental flight.
I also managed to use them on a relatively short "commuter" flight
once.

"me" wrote in message
...
On Nov 27, 7:34 am, "John" wrote:
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
[snip]
Most regular flyers don't *earn* the privileges.

I don't?

No, I don't really see that you do. You're just flying to a destination to
do some work. How is that *earning* the privileges?

They are on business, being
paid a monthly salary or whatever by their company.

Even when it is outside of "normal business hours" which is
when the vast majority of my travel occurs? When I am asked to
work "excessive" or "exceptional" overtime, I am often given
additional compensation. I'm never compensated in any additional
way for travel time which occurs outside of normal business hours.

I live about 300 miles north of London and recently had to travel there for
a 3-day training course that had an 08.30 start on Monday morning, so I left
home at about noon on Sunday and drove there, arriving at about 6.30pm.
Because I used my own car rather than public transport I claimed 40p per
mile and, because I was travelling on a Sunday (and therefore outside normal
working hours), I was on double-time, meaning that instead of my usual
£25/hour, I was on £50/hour for the 6-and-a-half hours I was on the road.

I don't get paid for the normal 15-minute commute from home to normal place
of work but when working away as above, I do. Are you saying that you fly in
your own time and do not get paid while you're on the plane?

Even when they're sat in
their seat on the aircraft (a seat paid for by their company, btw) they
are
"on salary"

Well, yeah, in some sense I'm "on salary" when I sleep. But I
would expect additional compensation if they started "taking" my
sleep time as well. Frequently for me travel time occurs during
otherwise "normal" sleeping hours. I receive no additional
compensation.

or "on works time" so if, as you say, the airlines give better
treatment to help get their business, any "privileges" should be given to
the company, not the individual person flying.

Well, actually, our company does have volume agreements with
some airlines. We also have "privileges" for the travelers which
the company negotiates on our behalf (mostly having to do with
change fees and upgrade privileges).

It still strikes me as being grossly unfair that someone should get free
flights to use personally for pleasure, merely because of the fact that
they
have to fly a lot because of the job they do.

I guess you'd have to say "as compared to what"? I know guys
that work for construction companies. On weekends, when the
companies aren't working, the guys "borrow" all manner of expensive
equipment to do private projects. Mostly on their own homes or
whatever, but more than one has used it to help out his own "side
business". I can't borrow this equipment. Is this unfair?

Our company has a set of "box seat" tickets to the local
sports franchise. Through various means, when the company
isn't using them, employees can use them, including taking
friends and family. Is this unfair?

Airline employees and their families can fly at greatly reduced
prices. Airline pilots fly virtually free in the cockpit jump seat.
Is this fair?

Jobs come with "perks". Some more formal than others.
Maybe it's the cop that takes his patrol car home, the salesman
that uses his cell phone for personal calls, the business pager
that the wife calls, and on and on. I'm not sure what makes
FF miles particularly "unfair" especially considering the impact
all that travel makes on the truly "frequent" fliers lives.

Yeah, I guess I hadn't thought of it like that. As you say, most jobs have
one perk or another in some way. I concede defeat )

John