First Time on Safari to Africa Questions

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:46:02 +0000, Pat Anderson
wrote:

In message , Hans-Georg
Michna writes

I don't know the Elephant Hill Camp, but usually you get what
you pay for.

I think Joel means Elephant Watch camp? It is run by Iain and Oria
Douglas Hamilton. They have the Save the Elephant project at Samburu.
It certainly is pricey Joel but of course they are the elephant
experts. We found Samburu lodge to be well run.

Pat,

oh, do the Hamiltons run a tourist business? I didn't know that.

Samburu Lodge (sometimes called Samburu Game Lodge) is also my
favorite in the area. Samburu Serena is a good backup. Larsen's
is a bit strange, and I don't know Intrepids very well, but
they're most likely also good.

Hans-Georg

--
No mail, please.

In message . com
wrote:

Eben-
I wish you would interleave your replies in normal Usenet style.
It would make it much easier for newbies to a thread to work out what on
earth you're on about.
And so that we know that you actually have thought about what I wrote.
You seem to post based on only one thing I've said in any post, and it often
looks as though you haven't read or understood the whole post.
So I'm having to repost the same things all the time.
Maybe I'm being unfair. Maybe your newsreader truncates my posts?


You are always promoting Kuoni, Liz. And WWJE.
I really wonder about your grip on reality.
A google.groups search will easily prove that's not true.


**You** were the one who asked who I had travelled with.
In message .com
wrote:
Which UK company do you use? Who is their local outfitter?
Until that point I had not named either Kuoni or WWJE.
But when you asked a question and I answered it, you malign me.
Where's the logic???


Neither of these companies are likely to be of any interest to Americans.
I clearly pointed out the advantages (bangs for bucks) and disadvantages
(the strong possibility of seven in a vehicle in peak season) of travelling
with Kuoni.


When Joel (the OP) specifically asked for companies which do
tailor-mades, I named ETG, with whom I have travelled and have had good
experiences - of which I have explained some. I also said there were
plenty other reliable companies. I wasn't prepared to name any (except EAOS,
which is very specialised and within that specialism has an excellent
reputation), since I have no personal experience of them.

I do name these companies *when asked* because I have direct experience of
them, and within their fields they are very good: two totally different
markets.


You are promoting packaged travel that send hordes of people on safaris
on suspect itineraries at inflated prices while hiding behind this
insurance thing.
Again, you haven't the slightest clue.
Search google for my posts over the past five or so years and you'll see I
always recommend tailor-made safaris when possible.
But I also recognise that plenty of people like to travel in a group: you
might be a misanthrope, that's your choice, but it's not everyone's.


You insist on ignoring the price advantage which comes from their group
discounts with the airlines.
Again, this may not apply in the States, I couldn't possibly say.
However, it has been suggested in the group in the past that it does.

You also haven't answered what would happen if you booked directly with a
company in e.g. Kenya then the FGO or the American equivalent advised
against travel to that country (as I said already, in the UK, that
immediately invalidates all sections your insurance should you decide to go
anyway)

You think it is a great thing. Fine. Just don't promote it.
You don't own this group.
Kill-file me if you like - I really don't care.
People ask for advice: if it's within my area of experience, I reply.
If it isn't, e.g. if they're asking about camping, mountaineering,
overlanding, driving in Kenya or about countries I know nothing about, I
neither post nor do I malign others who give such advice.
I'm opinionated, of course, and sometimes stroppy, and I do say when I think
wrong advice is given, or a poster hasn't thought of alternatives.
I'm open to correction and to expanding my knowledge-base: e.g. I'm grateful
for Rita's update on Kuoni's tailor-making policy. Way back when I tried
them, you could only semi-tailor-make, for example you could back-to-back
two or more of their shorter safaris if the dates articulated, and you could
get a vehicle to yourself, flollowing one or more of their itineraries, but
you couldn't send them a unique 'itinerary for quotation' to places outwith
their brochure (e.g. going to Kakamega or Ruma, which are off the 'usual'
safari circuit). I'm interested to learn that this has changed.

People can heed or ignore my advice as they see fit, according to their needs.

I keep in email contact with quite a few whom I've helped off-group too.
Obviously only those whose safari model matches approximately with mine.
No doubt you will find the same for those following your model.
I have no problems with difference: why do you?
Even if someone wants to pay mega-bucks to travel with Ker and Downey, I
don't get upset about it! It's their money, it's their choice. (You do
believe in the concept of personal freedom, I hope?)
They'll probably really enjoy the Ker and Downey 'thing'.

Here's another thought (one which bothers me):
If everyone travelled in a vehicle with only one or two visitors, the
environmental impact would be horrendous.
Kenya has a policy of accepting many visitors paying 'lower' prices.
Other countries, particularly Botswana, have a different model: many fewer
visitors paying much more (staying at 'exclusive' lodges) for a lower
impact. (They also have people doing rough camping, nothing in between.)
I suspect you don't approve of the few visitors/high price model.
But I could easily be wrong.

Liz

--
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"

In message . com
wrote:

Eben-
I wish you would interleave your replies in normal Usenet style.
It would make it much easier for newbies to a thread to work out what on
earth you're on about.
And so that we know that you actually have thought about what I wrote.
You seem to post based on only one thing I've said in any post, and it often
looks as though you haven't read or understood the whole post.
So I'm having to repost the same things all the time.
Maybe I'm being unfair. Maybe your newsreader truncates my posts?


You are always promoting Kuoni, Liz. And WWJE.
I really wonder about your grip on reality.
A google.groups search will easily prove that's not true.


**You** were the one who asked who I had travelled with.
In message .com
wrote:
Which UK company do you use? Who is their local outfitter?
Until that point I had not named either Kuoni or WWJE.
But when you asked a question and I answered it, you malign me.
Where's the logic???


Neither of these companies are likely to be of any interest to Americans.
I clearly pointed out the advantages (bangs for bucks) and disadvantages
(the strong possibility of seven in a vehicle in peak season) of travelling
with Kuoni.


When Joel (the OP) specifically asked for companies which do
tailor-mades, I named ETG, with whom I have travelled and have had good
experiences - of which I have explained some. I also said there were
plenty other reliable companies. I wasn't prepared to name any (except EAOS,
which is very specialised and within that specialism has an excellent
reputation), since I have no personal experience of them.

I do name these companies *when asked* because I have direct experience of
them, and within their fields they are very good: two totally different
markets.


You are promoting packaged travel that send hordes of people on safaris
on suspect itineraries at inflated prices while hiding behind this
insurance thing.
Again, you haven't the slightest clue.
Search google for my posts over the past five or so years and you'll see I
always recommend tailor-made safaris when possible.
But I also recognise that plenty of people like to travel in a group: you
might be a misanthrope, that's your choice, but it's not everyone's.


You insist on ignoring the price advantage which comes from their group
discounts with the airlines.
Again, this may not apply in the States, I couldn't possibly say.
However, it has been suggested in the group in the past that it does.

You also haven't answered what would happen if you booked directly with a
company in e.g. Kenya then the FGO or the American equivalent advised
against travel to that country (as I said already, in the UK, that
immediately invalidates all sections your insurance should you decide to go
anyway)

You think it is a great thing. Fine. Just don't promote it.
You don't own this group.
Kill-file me if you like - I really don't care.
People ask for advice: if it's within my area of experience, I reply.
If it isn't, e.g. if they're asking about camping, mountaineering,
overlanding, driving in Kenya or about countries I know nothing about, I
neither post nor do I malign others who give such advice.
I'm opinionated, of course, and sometimes stroppy, and I do say when I think
wrong advice is given, or a poster hasn't thought of alternatives.
I'm open to correction and to expanding my knowledge-base: e.g. I'm grateful
for Rita's update on Kuoni's tailor-making policy. Way back when I tried
them, you could only semi-tailor-make, for example you could back-to-back
two or more of their shorter safaris if the dates articulated, and you could
get a vehicle to yourself, flollowing one or more of their itineraries, but
you couldn't send them a unique 'itinerary for quotation' to places outwith
their brochure (e.g. going to Kakamega or Ruma, which are off the 'usual'
safari circuit). I'm interested to learn that this has changed.

People can heed or ignore my advice as they see fit, according to their needs.

I keep in email contact with quite a few whom I've helped off-group too.
Obviously only those whose safari model matches approximately with mine.
No doubt you will find the same for those following your model.
I have no problems with difference: why do you?
Even if someone wants to pay mega-bucks to travel with Ker and Downey, I
don't get upset about it! It's their money, it's their choice. (You do
believe in the concept of personal freedom, I hope?)
They'll probably really enjoy the Ker and Downey 'thing'.

Here's another thought (one which bothers me):
If everyone travelled in a vehicle with only one or two visitors, the
environmental impact would be horrendous.
Kenya has a policy of accepting many visitors paying 'lower' prices.
Other countries, particularly Botswana, have a different model: many fewer
visitors paying much more (staying at 'exclusive' lodges) for a lower
impact. (They also have people doing rough camping, nothing in between.)
I suspect you don't approve of the few visitors/high price model.
But I could easily be wrong.

Liz

--
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"

In message
(Jim Ley) wrote:

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:18:21 GMT, Liz wrote:

replying to my own post:
But I can't see just now (4 pages of A4 in small print!) anywhere it tells
you you're covered by the policy if you cancel a trip to an area the FCO
advises against, so I *suppose* you don't.
Here it is:
Cancellation and Curtailment:
You are not covered for...
b. anything not included in 'You are covered' above.
Which means that I'm definitely not covered if the FCO advises cancelling a
trip so I do (be crazy not to: none of my travel insurance applies then
anyway), or somesuch.

Interesting, I'd shop around, whilst my annual policy only covers me
for 2500 in cancellation (which is about 3 months by my normal travel)
it does specifically include FCO advising against travel to the
destination.

The policy I've got is from Tesco...

I was very interested in what you wrote.
I just caught sight of an ad for my insurance in my Union blatt.
It specifically claims to be £56.99 cheaper than Tesco (family worldwide,
annual, including winter sports' and that 'levels of cover are comparable'

I was going to contact my Union to tell them this wasn't true (they are 'in
bed with' with this insurer) but thought I'd better check.

I trotted along to the Tesco website and found that you need to have a more
advanced JS than I have available here to access the full details of
coverage. Could you email me the pdf fo the dot-com (hahahaha) below,
please?

Thanks & slainte

Liz

--
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"

In message
(Jim Ley) wrote:

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:18:21 GMT, Liz wrote:

replying to my own post:
But I can't see just now (4 pages of A4 in small print!) anywhere it tells
you you're covered by the policy if you cancel a trip to an area the FCO
advises against, so I *suppose* you don't.
Here it is:
Cancellation and Curtailment:
You are not covered for...
b. anything not included in 'You are covered' above.
Which means that I'm definitely not covered if the FCO advises cancelling a
trip so I do (be crazy not to: none of my travel insurance applies then
anyway), or somesuch.

Interesting, I'd shop around, whilst my annual policy only covers me
for 2500 in cancellation (which is about 3 months by my normal travel)
it does specifically include FCO advising against travel to the
destination.

The policy I've got is from Tesco...

I was very interested in what you wrote.
I just caught sight of an ad for my insurance in my Union blatt.
It specifically claims to be £56.99 cheaper than Tesco (family worldwide,
annual, including winter sports' and that 'levels of cover are comparable'

I was going to contact my Union to tell them this wasn't true (they are 'in
bed with' with this insurer) but thought I'd better check.

I trotted along to the Tesco website and found that you need to have a more
advanced JS than I have available here to access the full details of
coverage. Could you email me the pdf fo the dot-com (hahahaha) below,
please?

Thanks & slainte

Liz

--
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"

wrote in message
ups.com...
I often wondered who go on minibus safari convoys and where they come
from!

Honestly, I cannot think of a worse way to see Africa. Seven people in
a pop-up minibus traveling in convoys on a packaged tour. Incredible,
especially when I know how much they paid for that experience!

It's even worse when people promote these kinds of trips on these
boards. What are their motives? How much did they learn about Africa
from behind the windows of their minibuses? Who in Africa will
remember their nameless faces after they leave?

I did once a camping safari with a mini-bus. It was a local company in
Nairobi.
During 10 days, the number of tourists in this van was 2-5. But this was
because the embassy bombing in Nairobi was only a few
weeks before my trip. The very limited number of tourists was great for me,
but a disaster for the safari companies.

In general I go alone (in a group) on holday. In general, on these tours,
groups are split up in to fit in several vans and have their own way.
I can not affort my own car or the price of the lodges.

As you can say "how much did they learn about africa", I can say the same
about people staying in a lodge, driving aroung with a
private chauffeur, having luxurious lunches/dinners.
Everyone is entitled to have their preferences.
For me, nothing beats sitting around a camp fire with a beer (although not
cold!), in the middle of a park, no fences and heyna's walking around the
camp.....

Jan

wrote in message
ups.com...
I often wondered who go on minibus safari convoys and where they come
from!

Honestly, I cannot think of a worse way to see Africa. Seven people in
a pop-up minibus traveling in convoys on a packaged tour. Incredible,
especially when I know how much they paid for that experience!

It's even worse when people promote these kinds of trips on these
boards. What are their motives? How much did they learn about Africa
from behind the windows of their minibuses? Who in Africa will
remember their nameless faces after they leave?

I did once a camping safari with a mini-bus. It was a local company in
Nairobi.
During 10 days, the number of tourists in this van was 2-5. But this was
because the embassy bombing in Nairobi was only a few
weeks before my trip. The very limited number of tourists was great for me,
but a disaster for the safari companies.

In general I go alone (in a group) on holday. In general, on these tours,
groups are split up in to fit in several vans and have their own way.
I can not affort my own car or the price of the lodges.

As you can say "how much did they learn about africa", I can say the same
about people staying in a lodge, driving aroung with a
private chauffeur, having luxurious lunches/dinners.
Everyone is entitled to have their preferences.
For me, nothing beats sitting around a camp fire with a beer (although not
cold!), in the middle of a park, no fences and heyna's walking around the
camp.....

Jan

I often wondered who go on minibus safari convoys and where they come
from!

Honestly, I cannot think of a worse way to see Africa. Seven people in
a pop-up minibus traveling in convoys on a packaged tour. Incredible,
especially when I know how much they paid for that experience!

It's even worse when people promote these kinds of trips on these
boards. What are their motives? How much did they learn about Africa
from behind the windows of their minibuses? Who in Africa will
remember their nameless faces after they leave?

Well, I've done more than one 'organised tour'; the only 'convoy' driving
was from Amboseli to Tsavo when everyone had to travel in convoys (there had
been some trouble with bandits, I think). There might have been 2 minibuses
travelling together at times on the between park drives, but in the parks
themselves you are just as likely to see other vehicles if you are doing a
'tailor-made'.
For me, the first trip I did was done like that cos I had no experience to
do any other; subsequent 'tailor-mades' have been more expensive than the
organised trips, but at least I know the sort of thing I want now. The
first trip also made me want to return to Africa (and in many ways it was
the one I look back on as one of the most enjoyable, as everything was
'new').
On the whole, the people we have shared mini-buses with have been just as
keen on wildlife as we are; sometimes more knowledgeable.
In fact some of the least enjoyable experiences have been on 'tailor-mades'
(although we've also had some absolutely wonderful experiences too) - for
example, arriving in a camp in Botswana and having to share the safari
vehicle with a load of Australian 'first-timers' who didnt know anything and
just wanted to see everything quickly and drive on; having our own-driver
guide on Tanzania who knew almost nothing about birds; doing a 'fly-in'
safari in Zimbabwe where we seemed to spend more time travelling to and from
airfields and hanging around in them then we did watching animals.
I dont understand your last paragraph at all - I think I have learned quite
a lot about Africa - both by talking to drivers/guides and by watching what
goes on (and by reading books, watching TV programmes!). I admit I am more
interested in the wildlife than the people/politics and I dont really care
whether anyone in Africa remembers my face or not (as I dont in any place
I've been for a holiday).

--
Rita Daggett

I often wondered who go on minibus safari convoys and where they come
from!

Honestly, I cannot think of a worse way to see Africa. Seven people in
a pop-up minibus traveling in convoys on a packaged tour. Incredible,
especially when I know how much they paid for that experience!

It's even worse when people promote these kinds of trips on these
boards. What are their motives? How much did they learn about Africa
from behind the windows of their minibuses? Who in Africa will
remember their nameless faces after they leave?

Well, I've done more than one 'organised tour'; the only 'convoy' driving
was from Amboseli to Tsavo when everyone had to travel in convoys (there had
been some trouble with bandits, I think). There might have been 2 minibuses
travelling together at times on the between park drives, but in the parks
themselves you are just as likely to see other vehicles if you are doing a
'tailor-made'.
For me, the first trip I did was done like that cos I had no experience to
do any other; subsequent 'tailor-mades' have been more expensive than the
organised trips, but at least I know the sort of thing I want now. The
first trip also made me want to return to Africa (and in many ways it was
the one I look back on as one of the most enjoyable, as everything was
'new').
On the whole, the people we have shared mini-buses with have been just as
keen on wildlife as we are; sometimes more knowledgeable.
In fact some of the least enjoyable experiences have been on 'tailor-mades'
(although we've also had some absolutely wonderful experiences too) - for
example, arriving in a camp in Botswana and having to share the safari
vehicle with a load of Australian 'first-timers' who didnt know anything and
just wanted to see everything quickly and drive on; having our own-driver
guide on Tanzania who knew almost nothing about birds; doing a 'fly-in'
safari in Zimbabwe where we seemed to spend more time travelling to and from
airfields and hanging around in them then we did watching animals.
I dont understand your last paragraph at all - I think I have learned quite
a lot about Africa - both by talking to drivers/guides and by watching what
goes on (and by reading books, watching TV programmes!). I admit I am more
interested in the wildlife than the people/politics and I dont really care
whether anyone in Africa remembers my face or not (as I dont in any place
I've been for a holiday).

--
Rita Daggett

Considering I started this thread I'd like to jump in a bit and offer
my take on this.

I normally like independent travel for several reasons. I am a
semi-professional photographer and I dislike package tours. I like the
freedom of exploring an area on my own timetable and setting my own
itinerary. For the most part this works fine for a US national park
strategy or for independent city touring. There are numerous lodging
choices for every accommodation and in most cases it's quite easy to
pick up and leave should your choice prove poor. Should one choose to
camp, the logistics are easy to put together. Depending upon where you
are the most dangerous thing to contend with from a wildlife
perspective is bears. There is a wealth of material available from
public and private sources on the national parks. Renting a car is
simple, roads are well paved and marked and are not dangerous. In some
ways I understand Eben's approach because I too have a hard time
understanding why people take packaged tours to national parks in the
U.S. since it is so easy to do by yourself.

On the flip side though I am finding Africa much harder to deal with as
an independent traveler in reference to safaris. Here is why:

1. Airfares from the US are prohibitively expensive. Yes there are
consolidators that one can use but most people do not go to or
understand how to use them. Package tours do offer great arifares.
There is a company called UTG (US based) that has airfare with their
packages for $1000 no matter what the date. That is almost impossible
for the average person without bein connected.

2. Self driving is really an option for many of us. The majority of
Americans, myself included, do not drive standard shift. Furthermore I
think that a 5 hour drive from Nairobi to the Mara that requires a 4WD
vehicle is beyond the driving skills of 90% of the population. Sure we
own Jeep Cherokees, most are never taken off road. I'd be reluctant to
do so without more experience.
3. Independent camping is not an option. No need to expand on this.
4. Lodging is limited. The available choices are expensive and you may
not necessarily get a better deal once you add in extras like game
drives, etc...
5. Finding a guide company is problematic. Go on KATO's web site and
you will find many companies that offer safari. Most follow the same
itineraries. I've e-mailed several of them asking about customer
itineraries. I've received a response from one. Several of the
e-mails bounced back from the addresses that were provided on their Web
Sites. I can tell you that doesn't inspire much confidence.

I have appreciated both Eben's and Liz's input to my original inquiry.
I've found Liz's site very helpful in learning more about the areas
that I'd like to travel in. Travel is a very personal thing for
different people. Everyone's goals are different. While frustrating
for you Eben I suspect that the tourist in that mini-bus is just as
thrilled as you are to be there and isn't interested in mingling with
the locals. I'm also spending a lot of time doing research. Personally
I enjoy it, the average vacationer likes to be presented with a package
deal. I've also read many of Liz's post and while she does mention
several companies most are in direct response to someone asking (and to
be fair Eben, you did ask Liz) and she doesn't push or promote it. I
would have no problem mentioning a company I have done business and
that I was happy with their service. She is doing the same.

For myself I'm working with someone now on a quote for a private
safari. Hopefully it will fit into my budget. If not, I have no
problem joining a tour and treating it as a reconnaissance trip for a
later date. To each his own.