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#62
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In message .com
wrote: It is amazing to hear you say that "you are nuts to book direct" from the UK. The companies that go belly up are the agents - such as Far & Wide and MyTravel. and not the reputable outfitter on the ground in Africa who has been in business for 20-50 years! I guess you are right, I would insist on ATOL or ABTA too if I book with an agent in the UK. You can't be an agent in the UK if you don't have the bondings, which cost a *lot* of money. This money is held in trust and refunded to the depositor if it isn't needed, but s/he has to recoup this money by adding it onto the price. This balances by us paying less in our overall travel insurance: for example I pay 96ukp for annual insurance which covers myself and my husband (and children under 18 if we had them) travelling together or separately, for all travel of up to six weeks at a time worldwide (though cancellation is limited to £5000). It excludes winter and dangerous sports, which isn't a problem for us. (It would only be 74ukp pa (family) if we opted to exclude the States.) I had to smile when I look at the fixed itineraries from the UK companies, including the one you're dealing with, and see they are "spending 2 nights in Tarangire at the end of March 2005"! These agents clearly book clients in places where THEY make the most profit, instead of where the wildlife is! The brochure/online safaris are just to give an idea of what's available and what the cost might be. You can book these if you want, but really their specialty is in tailor-making to what you want. I notice that this isn't exactly clearly stated on the ETG site (it's there, but I had to look hard for it!). I guess most people aren't up to designing their own trip, especially on a first trip. Also, by booking year-round trips with the lodges, the companies get preferential rates, which they can pass on to their customers. I've more than once thought up an itinerary and sent it to WWJE and Catherine has got back to me and said, "I see you want X (accommodation): is there a particular reason you want to stay at X, or would Y (which costs Nukp less per night) do just as well?" (she knows price is an 'issue'). Usually I haven't heard of Y, so can check it out, and change if *I* want or can stick with X if there's a reason I want to. Maybe she gets a better profit from Y, but if it's cheaper for me and my experience is as good, I don't mind. If you're on a company's mailing list (at least here in the UK) you often get mini-brochures or newsletters in with special offers which don't appear on the main brochures, and don't always appear on their website: often trips which haven't sold so well. Seldom happens in July, though. :-( Also, if you get the paper brochures from either Kuoni or WWJE, there's a two-page guide to weather and conditions in each. E.g. the WWJE brochure has a chart with weather conditions for each of their designations for the whole year. Sometimes, certain destinations are unavialable, for example most/all? of the tiger reserves during the monsoon season. Otherwise, each destination has ticks in the boxes where conditions are best: you can go at other times if you want to, or can't afford to go at peak time, or your holidays from work are rigid, but they are letting you know clearly that it's not the best time to go there. The prices usually reflect that. The Kuoni weather charts list all their destinations with details of annual monthly rainfall, max/min temperature averages and average hours of sunshine in that month. You are therefore in no way misled. There is a good reason why they get good rates in Tarangire at the end of March! Talk about misleading their clients! If every company only went to the best places at every season, the prices would rocket because most lodges would have a considerable down time with only a few weeks to make any money, also demand would be sky-high because of the high demand. Another case in point, Kuoni, who takes their unsuspecting clients on the same itinerary year-round. And with all sorts of disclaimers about couples having to split, using unpublished lodges, minimum group size requirements, etc. Incredible, how do they stay in business? I totally agree with you on that one. I was very pleased with our Kuoni safari which was our first trip. Bangs for bucks, excellent value (on a group tour). We did the two-week Leopard tour. I don't actually have the Kuoni brochure for 2005, and am surprised that they aren't publishing the names of their lodges. Until last year, they used Block lodges almost exclusively in Kenya except for their Governor's Safari or if a Block lodge wasn't available in a particular area. The 'couples might have to split' is because the disadvantage of Kuoni is that they can have up to seven on a minibus, meaning that the group should play fair and rotate the person who's sitting the person beside the driver with no access to the roof hatch. In fact when we did the Leopard tour, we were 13 people in two minibuses. Our bus had six people and the other bus had seven, three couples and a single girl. In fact, she seemed always to be sitting beside the driver, which she said she didn't mind, but I thought was unfair. Kuoni have huge numbers of Brits travelling with them. There were over 60 on our flight alone, divided between lots of different safaris. They consistently win awards from goth custmers and from within the trade. However, they don't offer fully tailor-made safaris: you can pick and mix from the different offering in their brochure, that's all. Grief: their website is a nightma I just had a look. It's technically and legally (UK law) inaccessible. You may be misinformed about safari rates and quality of service performed by local companies. The local companies have fixed departures for clients who have no idea where to go, and/or want to save money with a group tour. I know that perfectly well. However, local companies specialize in arranging private trips, at prices very close to the published costs and heavily negotiable. IME, they are *not* heavily negotiable in July. Though obviously I haven't tried every company. And because I'm travelling now on my own, it's not currently an option open to me. I will never understand why people go on group tours with UK You've clearly closed your mind, then. You can't understand much about your fellow human beings [1] Also, travelling on my own isn't all that attractive. On safari, you eat with your group. I hate the 'ordeal by staring' which happens if you're dining on your own, and while I can do it if I need to, the idea of eating on my own for 2-3 weeks isn't at all attractive. Therefore although it wouldn't be my natural choice, I currently have to go on group trips. Imagine the cost of having a tailor-made just for one - in July! Sorry if my reality is unimaginable to you. Clearly, the 'bonding' aspect is outwith your experience and you need time to assimilate it, like I did when it finally dawned on me that the bonding requirement we take for granted here *isn't* required in the Land of the Litigatious. & USA-based companies when they can go in private - for the same price (less in some cases (think A&K) or a little more in others) - using the very same ground operators as the overseas companies! In my case, the discount on flights which the tour operator gets, compared to e.g. buing a flight only from Trailfinders/whoever makes the total cost equal, with a lot more comeback should things go wrong. I understand from this group that things are different in the US, in particular the bonding of travel agents and tour operators doesn't apply in most states. That must give a totally different perspective on choices. You can do your bookings over the phone and internet - your agent does the same! No need to run around Nairobi looking for an outfitter! And no protection should the company go belly-up after you book and pay, as happened for example with African Tours and Hotels a few years back. But if you booked through Kuoni (who at that time use them heavily) they sorted it all out for you. If the UK Govt says 'don't visit Kenya', if you're ABTA/ATOL covered in the UK they'll either refund you or will arrange an alternative often at very short notice. What would your local Kenyan company do? When a safari costs over 20% of your annual take-home salary, these things are *real issues*! Example: Years ago, we were booked to go to Yugoslavia in October week. The first we heard of the war there was when our colleague, who was going to Yugoslavia the first day of the summer holidays was phoned at work by his travel agent, less than three days before his trip to tell him that travel from the UK to Yugoslavia had been suspended: the company had searched for him and found a trip to Malta with two vacancies (peak time) for about £30 less and held it for him for eight hours, or else he could get a full refund. We got home and found a message on our phone from our travel agent, telling us that the 'trouble' was expected to be long-term (it was still 14 weeks 'til our trip): could we wait until they'd dealt with the people with immediate departures then they would check out alternatives. After about a week, they'd sorted out three options: Corfu, mainland Greece or Turkey, or we could have a refund. Corfu suited us fine, so we chose that. Booking direct just doesn't give the same piece of mind. The singles issue is a tough one. East Africa had a huge upswing in 2004 and certainly will again in 2005. With beds hard to come by, it is understandable why the lodge owners don't want to place a single in a double tent without surcharges between Jul-Sep. In seven safaris in early July as I said, I've only once been in a lodge which appeared to be full, but I don't know if every room was booked (Keekorok) or if everyone just happened to hit the dinner table at the same time. But when it is not full, we should not have to pay that surcharge. Again, this is easy to negotiate with a local company. 2Afrika, Kuoni and others add it on year-round. Ridiculous. Kuoni don't add the supplement year-round, or didn't until this year at least: as I said, I don't have a 2005 brochure yet. In fact I've never seen any UK company which had a srs except at the peak seasons (July - early September plus Christmas). I know nothing about 2Africa. In any case, I'm stopping this discussion. It's becoming an argument, and since the situation re bonding and protection are totally different in the UK and in the US, we aren't even starting from the same position, so it's all a bit pointless. There are different strokes for different folks. [1] Lots of people don't *want* to spend time planning trips and are happy to choose one from the brochure. Most are *perfectly* happy with what they got! Also, a good recce trip Even our former pupil who for cost reasons had to travel in the rainy season: we met her by chance after she'd booked, and were a bit horrified when we saw her itinerary - from the UK it's usually cheaper to fly charter into Mombasa whereupon the deal is usually Shimba/Tsavo E & W and sometimes Amboseli (hers didn't include Amboseli). But she really loved it and is hoping to go again sometime. When D. was travelling with me, one of my main pleasures was designing the itinerary, but one of the drawbacks of that was choosing which places to leave out - always a cause for sorrow! Anyway, I'm working on a dreadful page on my website which I'd forgotten was there, so must go now. Slainte Liz -- Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos "I speak of Africa and golden joys" |
#63
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Good grief: I'm puzzled about how this happened!
In message Liz wrote: Path: news.uklinux.net!NewsHound!fakexover From: Liz Newsgroups: rec.travel.africa Subject: First Time on Safari to Africa Questions [big snip of headers but no content!] Lines: 236 Bytes: 13125 Did anyone get the proper posting with actual *content*??? I can re-post, but it's *long*, so I won't if everyone else has already got it. I understood that I only get this (!fakexover etc.) if a post is cross-posted to more than five groups, but I didn't think I'd cross-posted to any! Slainte Liz -- Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos "I speak of Africa and golden joys" |
#64
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Good grief: I'm puzzled about how this happened!
In message Liz wrote: Path: news.uklinux.net!NewsHound!fakexover From: Liz Newsgroups: rec.travel.africa Subject: First Time on Safari to Africa Questions [big snip of headers but no content!] Lines: 236 Bytes: 13125 Did anyone get the proper posting with actual *content*??? I can re-post, but it's *long*, so I won't if everyone else has already got it. I understood that I only get this (!fakexover etc.) if a post is cross-posted to more than five groups, but I didn't think I'd cross-posted to any! Slainte Liz -- Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos "I speak of Africa and golden joys" |
#65
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Good grief: I'm puzzled about how this happened!
In message Liz wrote: Path: news.uklinux.net!NewsHound!fakexover From: Liz Newsgroups: rec.travel.africa Subject: First Time on Safari to Africa Questions [big snip of headers but no content!] Lines: 236 Bytes: 13125 Did anyone get the proper posting with actual *content*??? I can re-post, but it's *long*, so I won't if everyone else has already got it. I understood that I only get this (!fakexover etc.) if a post is cross-posted to more than five groups, but I didn't think I'd cross-posted to any! Slainte Liz -- Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos "I speak of Africa and golden joys" |
#66
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On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 15:24:41 GMT, Liz wrote:
In message .com wrote: It is amazing to hear you say that "you are nuts to book direct" from the UK. The companies that go belly up are the agents - such as Far & Wide and MyTravel. and not the reputable outfitter on the ground in Africa who has been in business for 20-50 years! I guess you are right, I would insist on ATOL or ABTA too if I book with an agent in the UK. You can't be an agent in the UK if you don't have the bondings, which cost a *lot* of money. This money is held in trust and refunded to the depositor if it isn't needed, but s/he has to recoup this money by adding it onto the price. This balances by us paying less in our overall travel insurance: for example I pay 96ukp for annual insurance which covers myself and my husband (and children under 18 if we had them) travelling together or separately, for all travel of up to six weeks at a time worldwide (though cancellation is limited to £5000). It excludes winter and dangerous sports, which isn't a problem for us. (It would only be 74ukp pa (family) if we opted to exclude the States.) but this travel insurance requires you to only book with ATOL/ABTA does it? because mine doesn't, and gives similar benefits at a similar cost. Booking direct just doesn't give the same piece of mind. but your travel insurance would have covered the same cancellation for the same reason, sure you may have had to find the alternative destination yourself, but that's not that difficult, and for a great many people is actually a pleasure, at the very least you need to have some idea of the place you're going to anyway so most of the effort is equal in either case. Jim. |
#67
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On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 15:24:41 GMT, Liz wrote:
In message .com wrote: It is amazing to hear you say that "you are nuts to book direct" from the UK. The companies that go belly up are the agents - such as Far & Wide and MyTravel. and not the reputable outfitter on the ground in Africa who has been in business for 20-50 years! I guess you are right, I would insist on ATOL or ABTA too if I book with an agent in the UK. You can't be an agent in the UK if you don't have the bondings, which cost a *lot* of money. This money is held in trust and refunded to the depositor if it isn't needed, but s/he has to recoup this money by adding it onto the price. This balances by us paying less in our overall travel insurance: for example I pay 96ukp for annual insurance which covers myself and my husband (and children under 18 if we had them) travelling together or separately, for all travel of up to six weeks at a time worldwide (though cancellation is limited to £5000). It excludes winter and dangerous sports, which isn't a problem for us. (It would only be 74ukp pa (family) if we opted to exclude the States.) but this travel insurance requires you to only book with ATOL/ABTA does it? because mine doesn't, and gives similar benefits at a similar cost. Booking direct just doesn't give the same piece of mind. but your travel insurance would have covered the same cancellation for the same reason, sure you may have had to find the alternative destination yourself, but that's not that difficult, and for a great many people is actually a pleasure, at the very least you need to have some idea of the place you're going to anyway so most of the effort is equal in either case. Jim. |
#68
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On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 15:24:41 GMT, Liz wrote:
In message .com wrote: It is amazing to hear you say that "you are nuts to book direct" from the UK. The companies that go belly up are the agents - such as Far & Wide and MyTravel. and not the reputable outfitter on the ground in Africa who has been in business for 20-50 years! I guess you are right, I would insist on ATOL or ABTA too if I book with an agent in the UK. You can't be an agent in the UK if you don't have the bondings, which cost a *lot* of money. This money is held in trust and refunded to the depositor if it isn't needed, but s/he has to recoup this money by adding it onto the price. This balances by us paying less in our overall travel insurance: for example I pay 96ukp for annual insurance which covers myself and my husband (and children under 18 if we had them) travelling together or separately, for all travel of up to six weeks at a time worldwide (though cancellation is limited to £5000). It excludes winter and dangerous sports, which isn't a problem for us. (It would only be 74ukp pa (family) if we opted to exclude the States.) but this travel insurance requires you to only book with ATOL/ABTA does it? because mine doesn't, and gives similar benefits at a similar cost. Booking direct just doesn't give the same piece of mind. but your travel insurance would have covered the same cancellation for the same reason, sure you may have had to find the alternative destination yourself, but that's not that difficult, and for a great many people is actually a pleasure, at the very least you need to have some idea of the place you're going to anyway so most of the effort is equal in either case. Jim. |
#69
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Wow! 13 people on safari in two minibuses. I am starting to sweat. This
is getting ugly! I have to leave this discussion! Since you travel on your own a lot I will leave you with one point to consider next time you come to Africa. Leave the large group of 60 at home. Arrange a guide and go on safari with him. Stay at tented camps or even do a camping safari. Why eat alone at night? Invite your guide to dinner at night. Then talk to him about his culture, his family, about wildlife and life in Africa. This will be so much more meaningful than sharing a group table with 13 tourists. Goodbye for now. |
#70
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Wow! 13 people on safari in two minibuses. I am starting to sweat. This
is getting ugly! I have to leave this discussion! Since you travel on your own a lot I will leave you with one point to consider next time you come to Africa. Leave the large group of 60 at home. Arrange a guide and go on safari with him. Stay at tented camps or even do a camping safari. Why eat alone at night? Invite your guide to dinner at night. Then talk to him about his culture, his family, about wildlife and life in Africa. This will be so much more meaningful than sharing a group table with 13 tourists. Goodbye for now. |
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