Jews Strive To Restore Christmas Trees At Seattle Airport

James A. Donald wrote in message
...
"Anarcissie":
Yes, that's the question. Why is it so important?

Because there is no stopping point, no possibility of
compromise. Every concession has been met by demands
for further concessions, and the net effect of all these
concessions is starting to seriously inconvenience,
aggravate and offend. We thought we had a deal, the deal
being to hide away anything with the slightest religious
connotation, and we followed that deal, and it turns out
we do not have a deal. Where do we go from here?

Maybe we need to build a big separation wall, with those
who cannot stand Christmas on one side of the wall and
those who want to celebrate Christmas on the other, and
then ethnically cleanse whoever is on the wrong side of
the wall. :-)

I think both sides of your 'wall' are a pack of silly buggers who should be
sent to bed without any mince pies.......


--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.

http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald

"Tchiowa" wrote in message
ups.com...

wrote:
On 13-Dec-2006, " wrote:

James A. Donald wrote:
But you guys are trying to suppress even the secular
aspects of Christmas - you were suing against the
display of Christmas trees

Who was suing against what display of Xmas trees? The ones in SEATAC?\

Even if anyone was - which no one is doing - the proof
that the trees and all the other attendent crap really is NOT
secular is that it is ONLY brought out AT XMAStime.

???? Did you think that Christmas trees should be brought out on the
4th of July?

There is an undoubtedly religious side to Christmas. Trees are not part
of that. Trees are part of the secular side. The Rabbi complained about
trees. He was picking a fight, simple as that. If the airport was
putting up pictures of baby Jesus with a halo or something like that I
could understand. I'm not saying I would agree but at least the
complaint (and the complaints of others in this thread) would make
sense. But claiming that a Christmas tree is not secular is simply
nonsense.

Even granting that the Christmas tree is secular (and I don't believe that
it is), it is definitely not all-sectarian. Yes, the Christmas tree, per
se, is not a religious symbol in the same sense as a cross or a creche (or
Jewish star). It is, however, part of the traditions and culture of a
specific religion -- Christmas trees certainly play no part in the heritage
of non-Christian religions. The point, which no one seems to get, is that,
though the majority of Americans have a Christian heritage and tradition,
that does not mean that Christian culture and tradition is synonymous with
American culture and tradition. The objection is not to Christians or
Christmas, but to the assumption that, because it is the predominant culture
in the U.S., it is a universal culture. America, by definition, is
non-sectarian, per the First Amendment. However, the First Amendment has
been construed (in cases like Lynch) to mean "all sectarian." It that's
what the Establishment Clause is going to mean, then we should be
all-sectarian, which is most-decidedly does not mean, "only the largest
sect."

Christmas trees are not universal. They are not part of the culture,
heritage and traditions of those Americans that whose families, ancestors,
backgrounds and beliefs are other than Christian. Are Christmas trees
secular? Perhaps, depending on how you define the term. Are they all- or
non-sectarian symbols? Absolutely not.




It would be less disgusting if they were just honest about it.

Christmas trees are disgusting????

Anti-Christian bigotry, AFAIC.

Ben Kaufman wrote:
On 14 Dec 2006 01:06:37 -0800, "Tchiowa" wrote:


Mike Hunt wrote:
Laura Sanchez wrote:

Too bad Christianity doesn't return the favor.



Excuse me? It's Christians that are the only ones defending Israel and
denouncing anti-Semitism.


Yet, they can't seem to share the winter holiday season by permitting a
one Jewish symbol at the airport.

Which "holiday" are you talking about? There is only one *NATIONAL
HOLIDAY* and it isn't a Jewish Holiday so why would you put up a Jewish
symbol?

Putting up a Jewish symbol would be celebrating a holiday that is
*PURELY* a religious holiday and not a national holiday and thus would
be in clear violation of separation of church and state.

Ah constitutionally based bigotry, way to go!

Ben

Not bigotry. Where talking about secular vs. religious. Do you struggle
with that concept?

Sancho Panza wrote:
"James A. Donald" wrote in message
...
"James A. Donald"
But you guys are trying to suppress even the secular
aspects of Christmas - you were suing against the
display of Christmas trees, not the display of
stables and mangers. You are suing against the
stuff that people see in Singapore

"Sancho Panza"
Pretty fast on the trigger with "you guys." Just what
guys do you mean?

By "you guys" I mean everyone that gets so enraged by
the symbols of Christianity that they cannot even stand
symbols that are associated with the symbols of
Christianity - I mean commies, militant Jews, radical
islamists, Gaia worshippers, the usual. Hindus,
animists and ancestor worshippers somehow never have
this problem.

But you are saying in posts right around this one that it is not a religious
symbol. Which is it, religious or not? If it's a symbol of Christianity, as
you say here, why should other faiths not be similarly represented?

1) A Christmas tree is not a symbol of Christianity, it's a symbol of a
national holiday.

2) Other faiths aren't relevant because of that fact.

3) Christmas is the holiday, not Kwanzaa or Ramadan or anything else.

brique wrote:
Constantinople wrote in message
ups.com...

Anarcissie wrote:

Holidays of enforced jollity are all part of living a life of
quiet desperation. As the great Quentin Crisp said,
"When people are happy there is no need for festivities."

Witty, but as a serious statement about societies, incorrect and
perverse.


Hardly, what else were 'bread and circuses' then.......

Brilliant: Rome provided free food and free theater to the Romans, and
therefore Americans and Japanese and others celebrate Christmas because
they live lives of quiet desperation. You might want to plug a few of
the gaping holes in your argument. However I'm not holding my breath.

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:02:49 -0800, Laura Sanchez wrote:

Too bad Christianity doesn't return the favor.


Excuse me? It's Christians that are the only ones defending Israel and
denouncing anti-Semitism.

By refusing to add a menorah to the airport display?

????

What would be the sense of that? What does a menorah have to do with
Christmas? The holiday is called Christmas. Why would you put a menorah
up at Christmas?

brique wrote:
Tchiowa wrote in message
ups.com...

James A. Donald wrote:

Your insistence that "Christmas is now secular and
erveyone must celebrate it or be considered a bigot
[the upshot of your "only those with a grudge against
it don;t celebrate it" post] " is not only insanely
fascist and bigoted, but just not logical.

No one must celebrate it, but any one who not only does
not celebrate it, but gets upset and offended by other
people celebrating it, is indeed a bigot.

Exactly right.

So, anyone who isnt a christian or who doesn't pretend to be a christian for
christmas is a bigot?

Do you have reading comprehension issues? No one said that. It isn't
that anyone who isn't Christian is a bigot, it's that anyone who tries
to block celebration of a national holiday because their are offended
by the holiday is a bigot.

Sancho Panza wrote:
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
ups.com...

wrote:
On 13-Dec-2006, " wrote:

James A. Donald wrote:
But you guys are trying to suppress even the secular
aspects of Christmas - you were suing against the
display of Christmas trees

Who was suing against what display of Xmas trees? The ones in SEATAC?\

Even if anyone was - which no one is doing - the proof
that the trees and all the other attendent crap really is NOT
secular is that it is ONLY brought out AT XMAStime.

???? Did you think that Christmas trees should be brought out on the
4th of July?

There is an undoubtedly religious side to Christmas. Trees are not part
of that. Trees are part of the secular side. The Rabbi complained about
trees.

The rabbi didn't complain about the trees. He made a request for his own
display. Quite a difference there.

No. He made a request for his own display AND THEN THREATENED TO SUE TO
TAKE DOWN THE TREES if his request wasn't met.

James A. Donald wrote:
James A. Donald:
But Xmastime is the time of the return of the sun -
it follows the shortest day of the year. Nothing
directly to do, except symbolically, with the birth
of that notorious Jewish heretic that you seem to be
so remarkably upset by.

Mike Hunt
That is the point. It is symbolically linked to the
birth of Christ, hence the name of the holiday.

But then, your basic grievance, or flavia's basic
grievance, is having a holiday on christmas, hence the
impossibility of appeasing the lawsuit mongers by any
lesser measure.

Exactly.

If they don't like Christmas then sue to have it taken out as a
national holiday. Until then I think there are some maturity issues
that need to be resolved in those whining about Christmas Trees.

Okay.

Um, what does this have to do with abortion?

Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://www.towardtradition.org/index.cfm?PAGE_ID=235



12.11.2006 Jews Strive to Restore Christmas Trees


Jews Strive to Restore Sea-Tac Airport's Christmas Trees

By Rabbi Daniel Lapin



Well here we go again. It is so utterly predictable. Like clockwork.
It's December and time for another skirmish in the annual battle
against Christmas. What compels me to comment is that this time it's
not the usual secular fanatic who's responsible for doing things that
evict Christianity from the culture. No, on this sad and alarming
occasion it's a deeply religious, well-intentioned rabbi who has
unwittingly stumbled into a situation that will place his denomination
(and mine)-Orthodox Judaism-in a terrible, negative light.

For at least ten years, Sea-Tac Airport near Seattle has displayed
several large, beautifully decorated Christmas trees each December.
With lawyer in tow, a local rabbi recently threatened to sue the Port
of Seattle if the airport didn't add a Chanukah menorah to the holiday
display.

Yielding to the ultimatum was not an option for airport management,
skittish at the best of times since 9-11. Understandably, they
interpreted the rabbi's threat as only the first. It would not be
hard to imagine Seattle's Islamic community stepping forward with
their own lawyer to demand a Moslem symbol be included as well.

With deft turn of phrase, Sea-Tac public affairs manager Terri-Ann
Betancourt explained that at the busiest travel time of the year, while
Sea-Tac was focused on getting passengers through the airport, she and
her staff didn't have time "to play cultural anthropologists."

Threatening a lawsuit, I feel, violates the Jewish principle known in
Hebrew as Kiddush HaShem, interpreted in the Talmud, part of ancient
Jewish wisdom, as an action that encourages people to admire Jews. One
need only read the comments on the Internet following the news accounts
of the tree removal, to know that most people are feeling indignant and
hurt. They certainly are not feeling more warmly toward Jews as a
result of this mess.

Here I disclose that I know the rabbi involved, am friendly with him,
and am sure that he didn't intend this outcome. I like him, which
makes it painful for me to point out that when one throws a punch
(which is what bringing a lawyer and threatening to sue is equivalent
to) and one gets decked in return, one cannot plead that one didn't
intend that outcome.

The outcome, whether intended or not, is that now vast numbers of
passengers, most of whom are probably Christian, will be deprived of
the cheerful holiday sight of pretty Christmas trees. What is more,
they will know that their deprivation was caused by a Jewish rabbi.
The rabbi's lawyer told a television reporter, "There is a concern
here that the Jewish community will be portrayed as the Grinch."

No, Mr. Lawyer, it is not that Jews will be "portrayed" as the
grinch. Sadly, now we are the grinch. You made us the grinch.

Now what is to be done? I have three requests:

I am asking every reader of this column to sign a petition on the
Toward Tradition website beseeching Sea-Tac management to restore the
Christmas trees.

I am asking every reader of this column to forward it to others who
might be willing to sign this petition.

I am asking Jews in the Puget Sound region to join national radio host,
Michael Medved, and me in offering our volunteer labor to Sea-Tac. We
hope they will allow us to provide the labor necessary for replacing
the trees so that airport staff need not be deflected from their
important duties.

Why am I, an Orthodox Jewish rabbi, so concerned about a few Christmas
trees? Not for a moment do I believe that American Christians will
react to this insult with a flurry of anti-Semitic activity. But I do
feel certain that perhaps in some small way, expelling Christmas
symbolism from the airport makes it just a little harder to protect
America's Christian nature.

For centuries, we Jews suffered in a Europe governed by ecclesiastical
authority. We suffered no less under the secular tyrannies of
communism. Now, in post-Christian Europe, where both government and
population are increasingly secular, anti-Semitism is dramatically on
the rise. In short, we have never thrived under religious government
or within secular cultures.

During the past two thousand years of Jewish history Jews have never
enjoyed a more hospitable home than we enjoy here in the United States
of America.

This is because we have a religiously neutral government and a largely
religious Christian population. Most American Christians love Jews and
support Israel unconditionally because of their commitment to the Bible
and the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Evidence from across the
Atlantic persuades me that our lot will deteriorate if America's
population gradually becomes secularized and removing the Christmas
trees makes that disturbing likelihood, over time, more probable. Yes,
public symbols are very important.

Years ago we Jews advocated for full equality. Today, with thirteen
Jewish United States senators, over thirty Jewish congressmen, two Jews
on the Supreme Court, and disproportionate Jewish representation in
media and entertainment, one could reasonably say we have achieved it.
But back then, the only culture in America was Christian. Today,
however, America is home to many faiths, not all of them friendly
towards Judaism.

Today, agitating for Jewish religious representation in the culture
inevitably results not in equating Judaism with Christianity but the
removal of both Judaism and Christianity. In other words, pushing for
the menorah means removal of the Christmas tree and the triumph of
secularism. Europe, both past and present, teaches us that if America
becomes secularized, Jews suffer.

For fifteen years I have insisted that for Jews to oppose Christianity
in America is a mistake. The world today is populated by millions who
harbor festering hatred for Jews. There remains one group of people
who love and support us and they are America's Evangelical
Christians. What possible sense does it make to fight your friends by
stripping their symbols from sight?

When the Moslems invaded Spain, one of their first actions was the
removal of all Christian symbols from public view. Secularism's
invasion of America is attempting exactly the same strategy. I implore
American Jews not to ally themselves with this ill-fated campaign.

We are less than a week from the Jewish holiday of Chanukah during
which our most important religious observance revolves around the
blessings we say over the Menorah. In doing so, we oppose the still
prevalent and ever more dangerous force of secularism.

When times change, unlike dinosaurs, wise organisms adapt. We should
recognize that we all have a stake in protecting Christian symbolism in
the village square (or the airport). The only alternative will be no
religious symbolism at all and make no mistake, secularism's rise is
Judaism's decline.

I spoke to the rabbi involved today and he is genuinely unhappy with
the decision of Sea-Tac airport. I invited him to join the Toward
Tradition petition and I hope he will do so. I urge you also to do
whatever you can to help bring back Sea-Tac Airport's Christmas
trees. Let us all show that we care.

Exactly thirteen years ago, a brick was thrown through a Jewish
home's window in Billings, Montana because inside that window was
displayed a menorah. Within days, over six thousand Christian homes in
Billings protested that anti-religious bigotry by displaying menorahs
in their windows.

I am not suggesting that Jews express their support by displaying
Christmas trees in their windows but I am suggesting that Jews fulfill
the spirit of Chanukah by supporting public expressions of the other
Biblical faith. I don't think that the airport was guilty of
anti-religious bigotry but a weakening of Christianity in America could
become a huge threat. For a start, let us try to restore Sea-Tac
Airport's Christmas trees.





Toward Tradition president, Rabbi Daniel Lapin, is a noted rabbinic
scholar and national public speaker. His radio show broadcasts live
over the Internet on KSFO San Francisco each Sunday 1-4pm PST and is
the author of three best-selling books, Thou Shall Prosper, America's
Real War and Buried Treasure.