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#91
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Chirac warns of 'African flood'
Jim Ley wrote: On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 20:50:19 +0200, "NightRaven" wrote: That's a fairy-tale, wealth and prosperity Always comes at the expense of someone else, otherwhise where would the wealth come from in the first place ? Through increased specialisation, if the bloke who's brilliant and making shoes can spend more time making shoes and less time breeding pigs, then there are more shoes than if everyone made their own. Wealth is not a zero-sum game. Jim. on the stock market it is |
#92
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Chirac warns of 'African flood'
One of the sad facts is that it is cheaper to get fresh produce from
Kenya to Europe than it is to get fresh produce from farms near Nairobi into rural areas in Kenya. This is due to infrastructure problems, poor road/rail networks, lack of storage facilities etc. etc. etc. Most Europeans just don't have a clue about how difficult logistics are in Africa. Another major problem is that the rural Kenyans you mention don't have any money to purchase locally produced staples like maize and cassava, let alone buyluxury products like mange-tout peas. One can only hope that some of the profits being generated by M+S and other growers is being paid in taxes to the Kenyan government, and that the Kenyan government is using those taxes to alleviate poverty in rural Kenya. Chances are slim though... Marc - Johannesburg On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 18:31:29 +0100, Whitedog wrote: On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 16:20:36 +0200, Hans-Georg Michna wrote: SNIP While that's true it's not a good thing IMO. In parts of rural Kenya (& the same may be said of many other places) there will be undernourished people, especially during prolonged dry seasons. In my local supermarket I can buy all year round, "fresh" Kenyan produce like mange tout peas for example. There is an inbalance somewhere in that. SNIP |
#93
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Chirac warns of 'African flood'
I didn't want to be part oif this fray, but I felt that I had to make
this point: Every major famine that we have experienced over the past 200-odd years has been completely avoidable. In every case there were political reasons for the disaster. Biafra, Ethiopia (1970's and 1980's), Sudan (1980's and present), Ireland (1840's), North Korea (2004), Afghanistan (often), Zimbabwe (present), China (late 1950's), Vietnam (1945), India (often), Europe (WWII), etc. etc. etc. In every case, food was available nearby, but was witheld for political reasons. It's not a question of there being too many PEOPLE to feed, it's a question of having too many political opponents and pawns to feed. Marc - Johannesburg On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 00:16:41 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote: Be patient; it's inevitable. Right now many populations live on a very jagged edge: a little bit too much drought, and they start dying. That's because there are too many of them. |
#94
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Chirac warns of 'African flood'
Marc Lurie wrote: I didn't want to be part oif this fray, but I felt that I had to make this point: Every major famine that we have experienced over the past 200-odd years has been completely avoidable. In every case there were political reasons for the disaster. Biafra, Ethiopia (1970's and 1980's), Sudan (1980's and present), Ireland (1840's), North Korea (2004), Afghanistan (often), Zimbabwe (present), China (late 1950's), Vietnam (1945), India (often), Europe (WWII), etc. etc. etc. In every case, food was available nearby, but was witheld for political reasons. It's not a question of there being too many PEOPLE to feed, it's a question of having too many political opponents and pawns to feed. Marc - Johannesburg With less people there would be less conflict and more wildlife. (flora and fauna) More resources would be available and last longer. When conflict used to arise a tribe would move on to greener pastures. These days that is impossible without causing conflict, because somebody else is already living there. |
#95
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Chirac warns of 'African flood'
In message , Marc Lurie
writes Marc, We have had a discussion on the subject of imported produce from Naivasha (Kenya) on a Yahoo group, Mwananchi, that I`m a member of, one of the contributors was Eddie Cross from Bulawayo, Eddie is in agriculture and he said we should continue to purchase these vegetables here in Britain as it gives employment to local people. I lived in Kenya for years and of course you are right, about people not being able to afford these veggies, they grow their own greens, also the difficulties of transporting and storing are difficult. I`ve stayed at Hemingways hotel at Watamu, the produce under the "Homegrown" label is part of the hotel`s business and as you may know, the vegetables and roses are flown out to Europe maybe even daily. I do buy this produce hoping I`m helping the people of Naivasha at least. Pat One of the sad facts is that it is cheaper to get fresh produce from Kenya to Europe than it is to get fresh produce from farms near Nairobi into rural areas in Kenya. This is due to infrastructure problems, poor road/rail networks, lack of storage facilities etc. etc. etc. Most Europeans just don't have a clue about how difficult logistics are in Africa. Another major problem is that the rural Kenyans you mention don't have any money to purchase locally produced staples like maize and cassava, let alone buyluxury products like mange-tout peas. One can only hope that some of the profits being generated by M+S and other growers is being paid in taxes to the Kenyan government, and that the Kenyan government is using those taxes to alleviate poverty in rural Kenya. Chances are slim though... Marc - Johannesburg On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 18:31:29 +0100, Whitedog wrote: On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 16:20:36 +0200, Hans-Georg Michna wrote: SNIP While that's true it's not a good thing IMO. In parts of rural Kenya (& the same may be said of many other places) there will be undernourished people, especially during prolonged dry seasons. In my local supermarket I can buy all year round, "fresh" Kenyan produce like mange tout peas for example. There is an inbalance somewhere in that. SNIP -- Pat Anderson |
#96
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Chirac warns of 'African flood'
On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 01:01:45 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote: Dave Frightens Me writes: And the benefit of this would be? A better and happier world for all of us. Wouldn't giving us all a million dollars do that? -- --- DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com --- -- |
#97
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Chirac warns of 'African flood'
Dave Frightens Me wrote:
On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 01:01:45 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote: Dave Frightens Me writes: And the benefit of this would be? A better and happier world for all of us. Wouldn't giving us all a million dollars do that? For Mixi? I take it you didn't follow the thread where he suggested that was a paltry sum. -- David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk http://homepage.mac.com/davidhornecomposer http://soundjunction.org |
#98
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Chirac warns of 'African flood'
On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:21:17 +0200, Marc Lurie
wrote: One of the sad facts is that it is cheaper to get fresh produce from Kenya to Europe than it is to get fresh produce from farms near Nairobi into rural areas in Kenya. Cheaper how? In terms of externally funded, tax free fuelled and subsidised air freight? The money never even touches the ground in Kenya in real terms. Nairobi has some spectacular slums/shanty towns (call then what you like) full of people who gave up a life on the land for a dream of a better life. I don't blame them for trying at all, it's just that many would have been better nourished staying in the villages and farming. Growing towns and cities very quickly lose the ability to be self sufficient and actually contibute to their own logistical problems. This is due to infrastructure problems, poor road/rail networks, lack of storage facilities etc. etc. etc. Most Europeans just don't have a clue about how difficult logistics are in Africa. So called Logistics *are* the problem. It's the very nature of business that causes this kind of problem. It's the application of unsustainable European or American business models to countries unable to cope that adds to and complicates fairly simple local problems. Road and rail networks don't neccesarily help unless there's an urgent need to flood an area with supply, such as in times or war or famine. Another major problem is that the rural Kenyans you mention don't have any money to purchase locally produced staples like maize and cassava, let alone buyluxury products like mange-tout peas. Buy staples? They shouldn't have to *buy* them, they should be producing them! The successful population of the African continent didn't come about as a result of business but of smaller scale local agriculture, practised by people who learned how to farm their land according to local conditions. Out of season (in the UK) Kenyan mange-tout are a luxury product here in the UK, in Kenya they are an outrage, stripping valuable resources from the land and exporting them rather than supporrting local populations. One can only hope that some of the profits being generated by M+S and other growers is being paid in taxes to the Kenyan government, and that the Kenyan government is using those taxes to alleviate poverty in rural Kenya. Chances are slim though... Sadly that's the truth of it. There's much talk of "fair trade" etc in Europe, but what's fair about creating a market for something we don't need and diverting foreign labour and expertise away from their own needs? Don't get me wrong, I love Africa, my experiences have been good and mostly positive; I just feel uncomfortable knowing how many good, hard working people are suffering unneccessarily at the hands of the African politicians and the people who trade through them and line their pockets. From a purely personal and selfish perspective I'm involved in farming here in the Uk and don't want foreign exports to ruin my way of life either, although African produce doesn't count as a competitor in this respect. Marc - Johannesburg On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 18:31:29 +0100, Whitedog wrote: On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 16:20:36 +0200, Hans-Georg Michna wrote: SNIP While that's true it's not a good thing IMO. In parts of rural Kenya (& the same may be said of many other places) there will be undernourished people, especially during prolonged dry seasons. In my local supermarket I can buy all year round, "fresh" Kenyan produce like mange tout peas for example. There is an inbalance somewhere in that. SNIP -- .--~~,__ :-....,-------`~~'._.' `-,,, ,_ ;'~U' Nearer my shed, to thee. _,-' ,'`-__; '--. (_/'~~ ''''(; |
#99
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Chirac warns of 'African flood'
On 17 Jul 2006 03:46:35 -0700, "Hooverphonic"
wrote: With less people there would be less conflict and more wildlife. (flora and fauna) More resources would be available and last longer. When conflict used to arise a tribe would move on to greener pastures. These days that is impossible without causing conflict, because somebody else is already living there. This is an extremely simplistic view. And while it may have held some merit at some stage, the fact of the matter is that people aren't nomadic any more. There have been no significant numbers of nomads anywhere on earth for the past two hundred years, so your point is completely moot. |
#100
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Chirac warns of 'African flood'
Marc Lurie wrote: On 17 Jul 2006 03:46:35 -0700, "Hooverphonic" wrote: With less people there would be less conflict and more wildlife. (flora and fauna) More resources would be available and last longer. When conflict used to arise a tribe would move on to greener pastures. These days that is impossible without causing conflict, because somebody else is already living there. This is an extremely simplistic view. And while it may have held some merit at some stage, the fact of the matter is that people aren't nomadic any more. There have been no significant numbers of nomads anywhere on earth for the past two hundred years, so your point is completely moot. hence use of *past* tense ! the future is that is growing populations in the same place, i.e.more competition for a dwindling amount of resources. the message is reduce the population. |
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