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#61
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Chris Hornberger wrote:
On 7/12/05 6:33 AM, in article , "Fletis Humplebacker" ! wrote: Hatunen wrote: On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:02:06 -0700, Fletis Humplebacker ! wrote: Hatunen wrote: On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:32:42 -0700, "Fletis Humplebacker" ! I'm not trying to sweep anything away, but there's not a whole lot I can do about it save whine, and unlike you, I see little reason to do so. I see little reason to expect an astute thought from you. How's that for a whine? Rather good, actually. But I would have expected no less. You snipped your idiotic commments out too, I would have expected no less. Glad to see that Bill Walker and I aren't the only ones to argue thusly. Gives me hope that the fine art of insult-laden debate is alive and well. It's a little hard to avoid when the guy you're talking to snips out anything relevent and misrepresents you in an attempt to make himself look better. |
#62
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Icono Clast wrote:
Kalifornia Kritter wrote: The Portola expedition couldn't even *find* Monterey Bay, even though it had been described by Viscaino about 150 years before. The expedition continued north and discovered San Francisco Bay. Don Gaspar de Anza is credited with that. http://www.books-about-california.co...a_Chap_01.html The Spaniards thought that their supply ship might have landed there, but it was actually probably the Russians. Anyway, it was too far to walk around the bay, and the Spaniards had no idea of whether they would be snowed in as they crossed the Santa Lucias and the Coast and Parallel mountain ranges, so they headed back to San Diego. Say, what? http://www.books-about-california.co...a_Chap_01.html |
#63
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Fletis Humplebacker wrote:
It's a little hard to avoid when the guy you're talking to snips out anything relevent and misrepresents you in an attempt to make himself look better. Affectionately known as "The Bill Walker Technique". Yep, know it well |
#64
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On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 03:45:19 -0700, Icono Clast
wrote: Kalifornia Kritter wrote: The Portola expedition couldn't even *find* Monterey Bay, even though it had been described by Viscaino about 150 years before. The expedition continued north and discovered San Francisco Bay. Don Gaspar de Anza is credited with that. No, Portola. After he couldn't find Monterey Bay, which in truth is more of a large embayment than a particulrly noticiable bay. As http://www.noehill.com/sanmateo/cal0394.asp points out, and as us former Pacific residents have drummed into us, Portola's party got out of their boats and climbed Sweeney Ridge on the Peninsula, obtaining a view of the Bay that the locals now pay a million bucks to have for their houses. Then Portola camped at a site probably now under I-280: http://www.noehill.com/sanmateo/cal0027.asp . ************* DAVE HATUNEN ) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * |
#65
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"Rudy" wrote in message news:2TJAe.231410$El.93579@pd7tw1no... First of all: We heard that motorcycles are not allowed. Is it true? Yes But you can ride a bicycle for free. Marianne |
#66
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Hatunen wrote:
Icono Clast wrote: Kalifornia Kritter wrote: The Portola expedition . . . discovered San Francisco Bay. Anza is credited with that. No, Portola. As I always say I always say, "The pedantic MUST be correct". Damn! When y'gits t'be my age, Dave . . . .. . . uh, waidaminit. I can't say that to you. Re-damn! __________________________________________________ _________________ One of (as of 2003) 751,682 residents of San Francisco. http://geocities.com/dancefest/ - http://geocities.com/iconoc/ ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 --- IClast at SFbay Net |
#67
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I think they pretty much ignored them. Fort Ross was a high walled fort.
Since they were going after the otters and furseals, they did nt nee much trade with the locals. "Kalifornia Kritter" wrote in message oups.com... Bill McKee wrote: The Russians were here also. And they were North of the Spanish. Any history of how the Russians treated Indians? The only thing I've seen that mentioned Russians was the movie "Island of the Blue Dolphins". It's the true story of an Indian woman who lived on one of the Channel Islands alone for 18 years. She didn't last 2 months after she was "rescued" by the Spanish and brought to live at Mission Santa Barbara... The Portuguese explorer Cabrillo first set foot on California soil around Point Mugu in 1542. He claimed California for the king of Spain. Under a feudal system, the Spanish king owned all lands and territories and loaned the lands to noblemen who were his loyal followers. If the nobleman committed any kind of treason against the king, his lands and head were forfeit... Even though the Spanish merchantment returning from looting the Phillipines sailed down the coast of California for 225 years, the Spaniards saw no reason to settle and develop Alta California until 1767, when it became apparent that the Russians and British might colonize it first... The Portola expedition couldn't even *find* Monterey Bay, even though it had been described by Viscaino about 150 years before. The expedition continued north and discovered San Francisco Bay. Local Indians told them that some white men in a ship had landed on the far side of the bay. The Spaniards thought that their supply ship might have landed there, but it was actually probably the Russians. Anyway, it was too far to walk around the bay, and the Spaniards had no idea of whether they would be snowed in as they crossed the Santa Lucias and the Coast and Parallel mountain ranges, so they headed back to San Diego. I disremember whether it was the Salinan Indians or another tribe that lived around Monterey Bay. They had no problems with their neighbors, they didn't have to migrate to follow the buffalo, they were sedentery. They didn't ptactice agriculture, though they knew about it. The men hunted and fished, the women gathered vegetable materials in season. Their society was feudal, only the sons of chiefs could become chief in turn. As far as private property went, one Indian family might have the right to harvest acorns from a certain oak tree. That was it... The California Indians generally welcomed the Spaniards when they arrived in 1769, but it didn't take the Indians long, only about five years, to realize how different and greedy and materialistic the Spaniards were... The members of the Portola expedition received large land grants. The Spaniards didn't survey land in a rectangular grid pattern. They claimed the best land they coveted for their own and described the claim as being between this river and that mountain. When they cut down trees or moved rocks around to prove that they were in control of the land they occupied, the Indians thought they were just crazy, no Indian would alter the landscape just to prove he lived there. The brutal mission system supposedly would turn a wild Indian into a useful peasant farmer in only ten years. The mission graveyards were filled with thousands of Indians who died from European diseases, overwork and beatings. The Chumash tribe along the Santa Barbara coast numbered 15,000 when Father Serra built his missions there. A century later, the Chumash survivors numbered about 50... Over here, in the Sierra Nevada foothills, there were about another 15,000 Yokuts. By 1835, most of them were dead from European diseases, even though the Spaniards never built the chain of missions dreamt of by Father Garces who visited the Bakersfield area in 1774. Indians who escaped the coastal missions brought European diseases and infected the San Joaquin valley tribes... Total number of Indians killed by Spaniards and Americans from 1767 to 1900 was probably 100,000... Father Garces never lived to see his first mission begin. His walking expedition took him to the Hopi villages in Arizona. The Hopis wouldn't have anything to do with Garces. They'd experienced Spanish cruelty for two centuries and they knew what the Spaniards were all about. The Hopis even killed other Hopis that converted to Catholicism. Father Garces was assigned to a small mission on the Colorado river when local Indians rose up and killed all the Spaniards. Garces was beaten to death with clubs... Anyway, that's how the Spanish land grant holders got the Indians' land, and I've described how the rich Yankees stole the land from the Spaniards and Mexicans by legal trickery. It's nothing for the Yankees to be proud of, and almost nobody seems to know the story of the great state of California's genocidal birth... |
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