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#1
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Tasers NEVER killed Anyone
"Dave Smith" wrote in message
... Why are people so outraged, why is this an international incident, international news, why has the Polish embassy gotten involved, why has the BC AG received more correspondence on this issue than for any other issue in their memory? ...why did the RCMP lie so blatantly about almost all details of the incident before the video was released if they were without fault? It is often a shock for people to witness what goes down when police have to subdue a violent person. It is not pretty. Sound bites and expressed opinions influence people's views. I totally agree, it is a shock for people to witness what police have to do to subdue a violent person. Robert, however, was nowhere near violent, he made no moves towards the officers. So please try again, grab at some more straws, make something else up. I'm sure you know better than a psychologist who trains Police in conflict resolution and the use of force: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmso2...eature=related "No, this was not a situation that required a Taser, this was a situation that required some members who are properly trained in crisis intervention." ALL RCMP OFFICERS are trained in 'crisis intervention'. These 4 officers acted on their own, as cowboys. They were not trained to pile on top of his back and neck until he went limp. They WERE trained to give first aid to a man they just rendered unconscious. NDP Public Safety Critic Mike Farnsworth couldn't even speak after first watching the tape, he was crying. Is that his mistake? Is he only being influenced by other people's views? |
#2
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Tasers NEVER killed Anyone
"J.Robertson" wrote:
It is often a shock for people to witness what goes down when police have to subdue a violent person. It is not pretty. Sound bites and expressed opinions influence people's views. I totally agree, it is a shock for people to witness what police have to do to subdue a violent person. Robert, however, was nowhere near violent, he made no moves towards the officers. So please try again, grab at some more straws, make something else up. Are you suggesting that this poor, frustrated immigrant who was trashing the equipment in the area because he couldn't find his mommy suddenly switched to calm mode? He just brushed off the officers with a wave of his arms. I am sure that the guy in the interview was willing to share his professional views on conflict resolution. On the the most useless courses I ever had on the job was with one on conflict resolution presented by a guy who spent most of the time talking about his reputation and experience. I'm sure you know better than a psychologist who trains Police in conflict resolution and the use of force: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmso2...eature=related "No, this was not a situation that required a Taser, this was a situation that required some members who are properly trained in crisis intervention." ALL RCMP OFFICERS are trained in 'crisis intervention'. These 4 officers acted on their own, as cowboys. hat is interesting, since your esteemed psychologist expect suggested that this was not a case for tasering, that they should have called in said that they could have used gestures. They did use gestures. He said that they went quickly from " barking orders that he isn't going to be able to understand anyway". He also said that this is not a case for tasering, that it was a situation where they should have called in someone who trained in crisis intervention. If this guy is the expert he is billed to be, why would he not know that, as you claim, all RCMP are trained in crisis intervention? They were not trained to pile on top of his back and neck until he went limp. They WERE trained to give first aid to a man they just rendered unconscious. One problem there.... her wasn't unconscious. As the guy filming it says on the video, he was still struggling. |
#3
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Tasers NEVER killed Anyone
"Dave Smith" wrote in message ... "J.Robertson" wrote: It is often a shock for people to witness what goes down when police have to subdue a violent person. It is not pretty. Sound bites and expressed opinions influence people's views. I totally agree, it is a shock for people to witness what police have to do to subdue a violent person. Robert, however, was nowhere near violent, he made no moves towards the officers. So please try again, grab at some more straws, make something else up. Are you suggesting that this poor, frustrated immigrant who was trashing the equipment in the area because he couldn't find his mommy suddenly switched to calm mode? He just brushed off the officers with a wave of his arms. He did calm down, he was calling "Police Police!" when he saw them, in a tone of voice that suggests relief and excitement. He was in no way violent or threatening to the officers. I don't understand what behaviour you see him exhibiting that can possible be called threatening or dangerous. Neither does over 90% of people polled, who've viewed the video. I am sure that the guy in the interview was willing to share his professional views on conflict resolution. On the the most useless courses I ever had on the job was with one on conflict resolution presented by a guy who spent most of the time talking about his reputation and experience. I knew it, I knew you were a cop, or are a cop, or something that compels you to overlook common sense and view the video from a cop's perspective. It's not possible for you to give an honest appraisal of what happened that day. Your view is tainted whether you realize it or not. You still insist they had no other option available. You insist they absolutely, 100% HAD TO taser him and pile on top of his back until he went limp. I'm sure you know better than a psychologist who trains Police in conflict resolution and the use of force: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmso2...eature=related "No, this was not a situation that required a Taser, this was a situation that required some members who are properly trained in crisis intervention." ALL RCMP OFFICERS are trained in 'crisis intervention'. These 4 officers acted on their own, as cowboys. He also said that this is not a case for tasering, that it was a situation where they should have called in someone who trained in crisis intervention. If this guy is the expert he is billed to be, why would he not know that, as you claim, all RCMP are trained in crisis intervention? You're missing his point, let me dumb it down a bit: He was saying that if the officers had followed their training properly, they would have used crisis intervention skills (ie. not tasing him within 24 seconds). In other words, it's too bad there weren't rational RCMP officers on duty, ones that hadn't already made up their minds to use the Taser as they walked up to Robert. Are you saying that RCMP officers have no training in how to handle a suspect or a "crisis" ? They are left out there to figure things out for themselves - no guidance on how to initially approach a situation? What the **** is your problem? They were not trained to pile on top of his back and neck until he went limp. They WERE trained to give first aid to a man they just rendered unconscious. One problem there.... her wasn't unconscious. As the guy filming it says on the video, he was still struggling. Did you even read what I wrote? You're acting very dumb here Dave Smith. He was struggling (to breathe) and guess what happened after that - he went unconscious. And then the RCMP officers did NOTHING. They stood there and LET HIM DIE. They made no attempt to check him in any way. |
#4
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Tasers NEVER killed Anyone
"J.Robertson" wrote in message news:K7L0j.19215$fD.7461@pd7urf3no... "Dave Smith" wrote in message ... "J.Robertson" wrote: It is often a shock for people to witness what goes down when police have to subdue a violent person. It is not pretty. Sound bites and expressed opinions influence people's views. I totally agree, it is a shock for people to witness what police have to do to subdue a violent person. Robert, however, was nowhere near violent, he made no moves towards the officers. So please try again, grab at some more straws, make something else up. By the way, the Feds announced a review of the RCMP's tasering protocol today. The federal government feels the RCMP officers weren't justified in using the Taser on Robert. So, in summation, Dave Smith is right, over 90% of people polled are wrong, the BC Govt is wrong, and the Feds are wrong. |
#5
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Tasers NEVER killed Anyone
"J.Robertson" wrote:
He did calm down, he was calling "Police Police!" when he saw them, in a tone of voice that suggests relief and excitement. I just played the video back. I didn't hear him say that. He was in no way violent or threatening to the officers. I don't understand what behaviour you see him exhibiting that can possible be called threatening or dangerous. Neither does over 90% of people polled, who've viewed the video. Sure. Four cops showed up and he stopped yelling and throwing things. The fact remains that he had been acting out violently and they had every reason to expect that he would be violent. I am sure that the guy in the interview was willing to share his professional views on conflict resolution. On the the most useless courses I ever had on the job was with one on conflict resolution presented by a guy who spent most of the time talking about his reputation and experience. I knew it, I knew you were a cop, or are a cop, or something that compels you to overlook common sense and view the video from a cop's perspective. It's not possible for you to give an honest appraisal of what happened that day. Your view is tainted whether you realize it or not. Well aren't you a regular Einstein. I said that I had worked in law enforcement and taken use of force training. You still insist they had no other option available. You insist they absolutely, 100% HAD TO taser him and pile on top of his back until he went limp. I never insisted any such thing. I said that they had reason to believe him to be violent because he had been behaving violently, and that they reacted according to use of force training. I'm sure you know better than a psychologist who trains Police in conflict resolution and the use of force: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmso2...eature=related "No, this was not a situation that required a Taser, this was a situation that required some members who are properly trained in crisis intervention." ALL RCMP OFFICERS are trained in 'crisis intervention'. These 4 officers acted on their own, as cowboys. He also said that this is not a case for tasering, that it was a situation where they should have called in someone who trained in crisis intervention. If this guy is the expert he is billed to be, why would he not know that, as you claim, all RCMP are trained in crisis intervention? You're missing his point, let me dumb it down a bit: He was saying that if the officers had followed their training properly, they would have used crisis intervention skills (ie. not tasing him within 24 seconds). In other words, it's too bad there weren't rational RCMP officers on duty, ones that hadn't already made up their minds to use the Taser as they walked up to Robert. Perhaps I had better dumb it down for you. You claimed that all RCMP are trained in crisis intervention. I pointed out that your expert said they should have called in someone trained in crisis intervention. They were there to arrest someone who had been trashing the airport and the guy they came to arrest resisted arrest. Are you saying that RCMP officers have no training in how to handle a suspect or a "crisis" ? No. I thought I was pretty clear. You said all RCMP officers are trained in crisis intervention. Your cited expert said they should have called in someone who was trained in crisis intervention. In other words, your cited expert didn't make the assumption that all RCMP are trained in crisis intervention. They are left out there to figure things out for themselves - no guidance on how to initially approach a situation? They had training in use of force and applied their training in this situation when an obviously violent person, a big, strong violent person, resisted arrest. What the **** is your problem? Well, I guess my problem is that so many people are whining that the RCMP killed this guy without cause when they were following their training and using a compliance tool that is generally safer than using batons, because they are not required to get hurt subduing violent loonies. He was struggling (to breathe) and guess what happened after that - he went unconscious. And then the RCMP officers did NOTHING. They stood there and LET HIM DIE. They made no attempt to check him in any way. You can't see that in the video. They did call for assistance, and in an airport that should not be far away. |
#6
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Tasers NEVER killed Anyone
"Dave Smith" wrote in message ... "J.Robertson" wrote: He did calm down, he was calling "Police Police!" when he saw them, in a tone of voice that suggests relief and excitement. I just played the video back. I didn't hear him say that. Play it again, this time with the sound turned on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wPyI...eature=related 05:59. He was in no way violent or threatening to the officers. I don't understand what behaviour you see him exhibiting that can possible be called threatening or dangerous. Neither does over 90% of people polled, who've viewed the video. Sure. Four cops showed up and he stopped yelling and throwing things. The fact remains that he had been acting out violently and they had every reason to expect that he would be violent. If you expect a suspect to be violent, but he is instead calm and submissive, in no way threatening, do you not revise your strategy in dealing with him? I guess it depends on if you HAD ALREADY MADE THE DECISION TO TASE THE SUSPECT, as they did, or if you were still willing to use common sense and judgement (ie. as they were trained to do.) I knew it, I knew you were a cop, or are a cop, or something that compels you to overlook common sense and view the video from a cop's perspective. It's not possible for you to give an honest appraisal of what happened that day. Your view is tainted whether you realize it or not. Well aren't you a regular Einstein. I said that I had worked in law enforcement and taken use of force training. You still insist they had no other option available. You insist they absolutely, 100% HAD TO taser him and pile on top of his back until he went limp. I never insisted any such thing. I said that they had reason to believe him to be violent because he had been behaving violently, and that they reacted according to use of force training. Ok then, if they didn't absolutely, 100% HAVE TO tase him and pile on top, then what else could they have done, Dave? Oh, you mean they could've done what they were trained to do - assess the situation and try to communicate? They absolutely, 100%, did NOT react according to use of force training. If they had reacted properly, according to training, then why has the provincial and federal Govt's called for inquiries. Why are there 4 or 5 official inquiries into their actions? You're missing his point, let me dumb it down a bit: He was saying that if the officers had followed their training properly, they would have used crisis intervention skills (ie. not tasing him within 24 seconds). In other words, it's too bad there weren't rational RCMP officers on duty, ones that hadn't already made up their minds to use the Taser as they walked up to Robert. Perhaps I had better dumb it down for you. You claimed that all RCMP are trained in crisis intervention. I pointed out that your expert said they should have called in someone trained in crisis intervention. They were there to arrest someone who had been trashing the airport and the guy they came to arrest resisted arrest. You're not getting it, Dave. One more time - the expert DID NOT SAY "they should have called in someone trained in crisis intervention." He said "this was a situation that required some members who are properly trained in crisis intervention." In other words, it's too bad the 4 officers there either weren't trained or didn't follow their training properly. Get it? Dave? Are you saying that RCMP officers have no training in how to handle a suspect or a "crisis" ? No. I thought I was pretty clear. You said all RCMP officers are trained in crisis intervention. Your cited expert said they should have called in someone who was trained in crisis intervention. In other words, your cited expert didn't make the assumption that all RCMP are trained in crisis intervention. They are left out there to figure things out for themselves - no guidance on how to initially approach a situation? They had training in use of force and applied their training in this situation when an obviously violent person, a big, strong violent person, resisted arrest. Your statement highlights a fundamental difference between Police, and the rest of the country. The public sees a man struggling to breathe after twice being zapped with 50,000 volts, and having 2 (200+lb?) officers pile on his back, and another on his neck. The police see a man who should just lay still and be a good citizen, as he's slipping into unconsciousness. Police are not supposed to tase someone twice, and then pile on top of that person for this very reason. Ya can't breathe. Get it? What the **** is your problem? Well, I guess my problem is that so many people are whining that the RCMP killed this guy without cause when they were following their training and using a compliance tool that is generally safer than using batons, because they are not required to get hurt subduing violent loonies. They were NOT following their training. He was struggling (to breathe) and guess what happened after that - he went unconscious. And then the RCMP officers did NOTHING. They stood there and LET HIM DIE. They made no attempt to check him in any way. You can't see that in the video. They did call for assistance, and in an airport that should not be far away. So that's it? They just tased him twice (against training) and piled on top of him, knelt on his neck (against training) until he went limp. Call an ambulance? No attempt to check him needed? You cops are ****ing brutal. Absolutely disgusting. Do you have ANY feeling or compassion for regular citizens? If you make someone lose consciousness - is your only response "call an ambulance" ? Why do cops even get first aid training if they don't need to ever use it. |
#7
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Tasers NEVER killed Anyone
That was the lamest struggle I have ever seen. The police didn't get their
clothing torn or their hair messed up. -- Read and obey the Bible. Yu'shua died on the cross for our sins, He rose again and walked the earth. We are awaiting the Third Coming aka The Day Of Judgment. Sheep are extremely fluffy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4NEbU_YkZw#gAhmzK_HQgc "Dave Smith" wrote in message ... "J.Robertson" wrote: It is often a shock for people to witness what goes down when police have to subdue a violent person. It is not pretty. Sound bites and expressed opinions influence people's views. I totally agree, it is a shock for people to witness what police have to do to subdue a violent person. Robert, however, was nowhere near violent, he made no moves towards the officers. So please try again, grab at some more straws, make something else up. Are you suggesting that this poor, frustrated immigrant who was trashing the equipment in the area because he couldn't find his mommy suddenly switched to calm mode? He just brushed off the officers with a wave of his arms. I am sure that the guy in the interview was willing to share his professional views on conflict resolution. On the the most useless courses I ever had on the job was with one on conflict resolution presented by a guy who spent most of the time talking about his reputation and experience. I'm sure you know better than a psychologist who trains Police in conflict resolution and the use of force: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmso2...eature=related "No, this was not a situation that required a Taser, this was a situation that required some members who are properly trained in crisis intervention." ALL RCMP OFFICERS are trained in 'crisis intervention'. These 4 officers acted on their own, as cowboys. hat is interesting, since your esteemed psychologist expect suggested that this was not a case for tasering, that they should have called in said that they could have used gestures. They did use gestures. He said that they went quickly from " barking orders that he isn't going to be able to understand anyway". He also said that this is not a case for tasering, that it was a situation where they should have called in someone who trained in crisis intervention. If this guy is the expert he is billed to be, why would he not know that, as you claim, all RCMP are trained in crisis intervention? They were not trained to pile on top of his back and neck until he went limp. They WERE trained to give first aid to a man they just rendered unconscious. One problem there.... her wasn't unconscious. As the guy filming it says on the video, he was still struggling. |
#8
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Tasers NEVER killed Anyone
He did say, "Polis, Polis". It sounded like what a freaked out individual
would say if he suddenly saw a group of policemen. -- Read and obey the Bible. Yu'shua died on the cross for our sins, He rose again and walked the earth. We are awaiting the Third Coming aka The Day Of Judgment. Sheep are extremely fluffy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4NEbU_YkZw#gAhmzK_HQgc "Dave Smith" wrote in message ... "J.Robertson" wrote: He did calm down, he was calling "Police Police!" when he saw them, in a tone of voice that suggests relief and excitement. I just played the video back. I didn't hear him say that. He was in no way violent or threatening to the officers. I don't understand what behaviour you see him exhibiting that can possible be called threatening or dangerous. Neither does over 90% of people polled, who've viewed the video. Sure. Four cops showed up and he stopped yelling and throwing things. The fact remains that he had been acting out violently and they had every reason to expect that he would be violent. I am sure that the guy in the interview was willing to share his professional views on conflict resolution. On the the most useless courses I ever had on the job was with one on conflict resolution presented by a guy who spent most of the time talking about his reputation and experience. I knew it, I knew you were a cop, or are a cop, or something that compels you to overlook common sense and view the video from a cop's perspective. It's not possible for you to give an honest appraisal of what happened that day. Your view is tainted whether you realize it or not. Well aren't you a regular Einstein. I said that I had worked in law enforcement and taken use of force training. You still insist they had no other option available. You insist they absolutely, 100% HAD TO taser him and pile on top of his back until he went limp. I never insisted any such thing. I said that they had reason to believe him to be violent because he had been behaving violently, and that they reacted according to use of force training. I'm sure you know better than a psychologist who trains Police in conflict resolution and the use of force: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmso2...eature=related "No, this was not a situation that required a Taser, this was a situation that required some members who are properly trained in crisis intervention." ALL RCMP OFFICERS are trained in 'crisis intervention'. These 4 officers acted on their own, as cowboys. He also said that this is not a case for tasering, that it was a situation where they should have called in someone who trained in crisis intervention. If this guy is the expert he is billed to be, why would he not know that, as you claim, all RCMP are trained in crisis intervention? You're missing his point, let me dumb it down a bit: He was saying that if the officers had followed their training properly, they would have used crisis intervention skills (ie. not tasing him within 24 seconds). In other words, it's too bad there weren't rational RCMP officers on duty, ones that hadn't already made up their minds to use the Taser as they walked up to Robert. Perhaps I had better dumb it down for you. You claimed that all RCMP are trained in crisis intervention. I pointed out that your expert said they should have called in someone trained in crisis intervention. They were there to arrest someone who had been trashing the airport and the guy they came to arrest resisted arrest. Are you saying that RCMP officers have no training in how to handle a suspect or a "crisis" ? No. I thought I was pretty clear. You said all RCMP officers are trained in crisis intervention. Your cited expert said they should have called in someone who was trained in crisis intervention. In other words, your cited expert didn't make the assumption that all RCMP are trained in crisis intervention. They are left out there to figure things out for themselves - no guidance on how to initially approach a situation? They had training in use of force and applied their training in this situation when an obviously violent person, a big, strong violent person, resisted arrest. What the **** is your problem? Well, I guess my problem is that so many people are whining that the RCMP killed this guy without cause when they were following their training and using a compliance tool that is generally safer than using batons, because they are not required to get hurt subduing violent loonies. He was struggling (to breathe) and guess what happened after that - he went unconscious. And then the RCMP officers did NOTHING. They stood there and LET HIM DIE. They made no attempt to check him in any way. You can't see that in the video. They did call for assistance, and in an airport that should not be far away. |
#9
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Tasers NEVER killed Anyone
Good news is that Stockwell Day has managed to force the CBSA to give a
public report of their view of what happened. I think the total lack of leadership shown by the RCMP and CBSA in this incident has also riled up a lot of ppl. -- Read and obey the Bible. Yu'shua died on the cross for our sins, He rose again and walked the earth. We are awaiting the Third Coming aka The Day Of Judgment. Sheep are extremely fluffy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4NEbU_YkZw#gAhmzK_HQgc "J.Robertson" wrote in message news:TwM0j.19646$fD.17492@pd7urf3no... "Dave Smith" wrote in message ... "J.Robertson" wrote: He did calm down, he was calling "Police Police!" when he saw them, in a tone of voice that suggests relief and excitement. I just played the video back. I didn't hear him say that. Play it again, this time with the sound turned on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wPyI...eature=related 05:59. He was in no way violent or threatening to the officers. I don't understand what behaviour you see him exhibiting that can possible be called threatening or dangerous. Neither does over 90% of people polled, who've viewed the video. Sure. Four cops showed up and he stopped yelling and throwing things. The fact remains that he had been acting out violently and they had every reason to expect that he would be violent. If you expect a suspect to be violent, but he is instead calm and submissive, in no way threatening, do you not revise your strategy in dealing with him? I guess it depends on if you HAD ALREADY MADE THE DECISION TO TASE THE SUSPECT, as they did, or if you were still willing to use common sense and judgement (ie. as they were trained to do.) I knew it, I knew you were a cop, or are a cop, or something that compels you to overlook common sense and view the video from a cop's perspective. It's not possible for you to give an honest appraisal of what happened that day. Your view is tainted whether you realize it or not. Well aren't you a regular Einstein. I said that I had worked in law enforcement and taken use of force training. You still insist they had no other option available. You insist they absolutely, 100% HAD TO taser him and pile on top of his back until he went limp. I never insisted any such thing. I said that they had reason to believe him to be violent because he had been behaving violently, and that they reacted according to use of force training. Ok then, if they didn't absolutely, 100% HAVE TO tase him and pile on top, then what else could they have done, Dave? Oh, you mean they could've done what they were trained to do - assess the situation and try to communicate? They absolutely, 100%, did NOT react according to use of force training. If they had reacted properly, according to training, then why has the provincial and federal Govt's called for inquiries. Why are there 4 or 5 official inquiries into their actions? You're missing his point, let me dumb it down a bit: He was saying that if the officers had followed their training properly, they would have used crisis intervention skills (ie. not tasing him within 24 seconds). In other words, it's too bad there weren't rational RCMP officers on duty, ones that hadn't already made up their minds to use the Taser as they walked up to Robert. Perhaps I had better dumb it down for you. You claimed that all RCMP are trained in crisis intervention. I pointed out that your expert said they should have called in someone trained in crisis intervention. They were there to arrest someone who had been trashing the airport and the guy they came to arrest resisted arrest. You're not getting it, Dave. One more time - the expert DID NOT SAY "they should have called in someone trained in crisis intervention." He said "this was a situation that required some members who are properly trained in crisis intervention." In other words, it's too bad the 4 officers there either weren't trained or didn't follow their training properly. Get it? Dave? Are you saying that RCMP officers have no training in how to handle a suspect or a "crisis" ? No. I thought I was pretty clear. You said all RCMP officers are trained in crisis intervention. Your cited expert said they should have called in someone who was trained in crisis intervention. In other words, your cited expert didn't make the assumption that all RCMP are trained in crisis intervention. They are left out there to figure things out for themselves - no guidance on how to initially approach a situation? They had training in use of force and applied their training in this situation when an obviously violent person, a big, strong violent person, resisted arrest. Your statement highlights a fundamental difference between Police, and the rest of the country. The public sees a man struggling to breathe after twice being zapped with 50,000 volts, and having 2 (200+lb?) officers pile on his back, and another on his neck. The police see a man who should just lay still and be a good citizen, as he's slipping into unconsciousness. Police are not supposed to tase someone twice, and then pile on top of that person for this very reason. Ya can't breathe. Get it? What the **** is your problem? Well, I guess my problem is that so many people are whining that the RCMP killed this guy without cause when they were following their training and using a compliance tool that is generally safer than using batons, because they are not required to get hurt subduing violent loonies. They were NOT following their training. He was struggling (to breathe) and guess what happened after that - he went unconscious. And then the RCMP officers did NOTHING. They stood there and LET HIM DIE. They made no attempt to check him in any way. You can't see that in the video. They did call for assistance, and in an airport that should not be far away. So that's it? They just tased him twice (against training) and piled on top of him, knelt on his neck (against training) until he went limp. Call an ambulance? No attempt to check him needed? You cops are ****ing brutal. Absolutely disgusting. Do you have ANY feeling or compassion for regular citizens? If you make someone lose consciousness - is your only response "call an ambulance" ? Why do cops even get first aid training if they don't need to ever use it. |
#10
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Tasers NEVER killed Anyone
On Nov 22, 9:54 am, "Greg Carr" wrote:
That was the lamest struggle I have ever seen. The police didn't get their clothing torn or their hair messed up. One problem there.... her wasn't unconscious. As the guy filming it says on the video, he was still struggling.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - There was no struggling there. He was cunvulsing from the shock, which is a normal reaction. |
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