Cheap air travel within europe

"Spectacular" advice once again! I'll play with the time tables and
see how it may work over the next few weeks.

Tim K

"Arwel Parry" wrote in message
...
In message , Martin Stock
writes

"Tim Kroesen" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
nk.net...
On a side note; would you please describe what you feel are the
most
scenic train routes through the Alps from Germany to Italy. I'll
be
traveling South from somewhere (probably Munich) in Germany
through to
Rome over the course of 3/4 days in late May. Switzerland detour is
fine
with me also; even private rail to ski areas; I want to see the
best of
the Alps possible from the train so daytime train itineraries
please!

Tim K

Swiss Railways SBB scenic routes
http://www.rail.ch/pv/sts-pano_e.htm

The fastest route from Munich to Italy is via Innsbruck (Austria) and
the
Brenner pass to Bozen/Bolzano.
The fastest route from Munich through Switzerland would be
Munich - Lindau - Bregenz (east side of Lake Constance) - Zürich
(northern
end of the yellow line).
change train in Zürich
From Zürich rather straight on the east side of Lake Lucerne (this
route is
not on this map), from there following the brown line to Lugano.

Alternatively, for a slower, but I think even more spectacular route,
follow the above route as far as Bregenz (or St Margarethen on the
Swiss
side of the border if the train stops there), then travel to Sargans
(local train from St Margarethen, or via Feldkirch if travelling on
the
Austrian side -- the Feldkirch - Sargans train passes through
Liechtenstein but doesn't stop there, if you want to cross off another
country!). From Sargans the SBB runs intercity trains to Chur where
the
narrow-gauge Rhätische Bahn connects -- you may be able to catch a
direct train to Tirano in Italy (Bernina Express), or have to take a
St
Moritz train and change in Samedan and Pontresina. From Tirano you can
get a mainline train to Milano,


--
Arwel Parry
http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/

"Arwel Parry" wrote in message
...
In message , Martin Stock
writes

"Tim Kroesen" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
nk.net...
On a side note; would you please describe what you feel are the most
scenic train routes through the Alps from Germany to Italy. I'll be
traveling South from somewhere (probably Munich) in Germany through to
Rome over the course of 3/4 days in late May. Switzerland detour is
fine
with me also; even private rail to ski areas; I want to see the best of
the Alps possible from the train so daytime train itineraries please!

Tim K

Swiss Railways SBB scenic routes
http://www.rail.ch/pv/sts-pano_e.htm

The fastest route from Munich to Italy is via Innsbruck (Austria) and the
Brenner pass to Bozen/Bolzano.
The fastest route from Munich through Switzerland would be
Munich - Lindau - Bregenz (east side of Lake Constance) - Zürich
(northern
end of the yellow line).
change train in Zürich
From Zürich rather straight on the east side of Lake Lucerne (this route
is
not on this map), from there following the brown line to Lugano.

Alternatively, for a slower, but I think even more spectacular route,
follow the above route as far as Bregenz (or St Margarethen on the Swiss
side of the border if the train stops there), then travel to Sargans
(local train from St Margarethen, or via Feldkirch if travelling on the
Austrian side -- the Feldkirch - Sargans train passes through
Liechtenstein but doesn't stop there, if you want to cross off another
country!). From Sargans the SBB runs intercity trains to Chur where the
narrow-gauge Rhätische Bahn connects -- you may be able to catch a
direct train to Tirano in Italy (Bernina Express), or have to take a St
Moritz train and change in Samedan and Pontresina. From Tirano you can
get a mainline train to Milano,

That is a truly magnificent route! Doable in a day, though? I rather doubt
it. If taking two days, travel Munich-Innsbruck leg via Garmisch, rather
than the main line (slower, more spectacular, IMO)

Tony

(rogerke) wrote in message ...
On 11 Feb 2004 03:29:52 -0800, (Joe) wrote:

I am from the United States, and my wife, child and myself, plan to
travel to Europe in June. I have most of my trip planned, except for
the travel from Rome to Frankfurt. I have looked at the ryanair's very
appealing price structure. However, I have also read that ryanair is
not very dependable,

you are making a joke :-)
i have flown so many times with them and 1 time i had a delay from 2
hours because of fogg...
i think it is difficult to find a carrier who has e better 'in time"
rate...

I'll second that! I've flown many times a year on most of the major
european airlines, and Ryanair several times, mostly for personal
travel. Ryanair have probably been more reliable than the big guys -
you definitely sense that they are focussed on efficiency, which means
fast turnarounds and fewer delays. The "connections not guaranteed"
thing is the only reason I would ever be wary of using them.

In message , Tony Day
writes

"Arwel Parry" wrote in message
...
In message , Martin Stock
writes

"Tim Kroesen" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
nk.net...
On a side note; would you please describe what you feel are the most
scenic train routes through the Alps from Germany to Italy. I'll be
traveling South from somewhere (probably Munich) in Germany through to
Rome over the course of 3/4 days in late May. Switzerland detour is
fine
with me also; even private rail to ski areas; I want to see the best of
the Alps possible from the train so daytime train itineraries please!

Tim K

Swiss Railways SBB scenic routes
http://www.rail.ch/pv/sts-pano_e.htm

The fastest route from Munich to Italy is via Innsbruck (Austria) and the
Brenner pass to Bozen/Bolzano.
The fastest route from Munich through Switzerland would be
Munich - Lindau - Bregenz (east side of Lake Constance) - Zürich
(northern
end of the yellow line).
change train in Zürich
From Zürich rather straight on the east side of Lake Lucerne (this route
is
not on this map), from there following the brown line to Lugano.

Alternatively, for a slower, but I think even more spectacular route,
follow the above route as far as Bregenz (or St Margarethen on the Swiss
side of the border if the train stops there), then travel to Sargans
(local train from St Margarethen, or via Feldkirch if travelling on the
Austrian side -- the Feldkirch - Sargans train passes through
Liechtenstein but doesn't stop there, if you want to cross off another
country!). From Sargans the SBB runs intercity trains to Chur where the
narrow-gauge Rhätische Bahn connects -- you may be able to catch a
direct train to Tirano in Italy (Bernina Express), or have to take a St
Moritz train and change in Samedan and Pontresina. From Tirano you can
get a mainline train to Milano,

That is a truly magnificent route! Doable in a day, though? I rather doubt
it. If taking two days, travel Munich-Innsbruck leg via Garmisch, rather
than the main line (slower, more spectacular, IMO)

For next Monday, from bahn.hafas.de, but you have to input the route in
stages to get these times!

München Hbf 16.02.04 dep 08:12 EC 196
St. Margrethen 16.02.04 arr 10:53

St. Margrethen 16.02.04 dep 11:31 RE 2811
Chur 16.02.04 arr 12:38

Chur 16.02.04 dep 12:54 D 545
Samedan 16.02.04 arr 14:41

Samedan 16.02.04 dep 14:48 RB 745
Pontresina 16.02.04 arr 14:55

Pontresina 16.02.04 dep 15:03 RB 445
Tirano 16.02.04 arr 17:11

Tirano 16.02.04 dep 18:56 2605
Milano Centrale 16.02.04 arr 21:30

--
Arwel Parry
http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/

"Arwel Parry" wrote in message
...
In message , Tony Day
writes

"Arwel Parry" wrote in message
...
In message , Martin Stock
writes

"Tim Kroesen" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
nk.net...
On a side note; would you please describe what you feel are the most
scenic train routes through the Alps from Germany to Italy. I'll be
traveling South from somewhere (probably Munich) in Germany through
to
Rome over the course of 3/4 days in late May. Switzerland detour is
fine
with me also; even private rail to ski areas; I want to see the best
of
the Alps possible from the train so daytime train itineraries
please!

Tim K

Swiss Railways SBB scenic routes
http://www.rail.ch/pv/sts-pano_e.htm

The fastest route from Munich to Italy is via Innsbruck (Austria) and
the
Brenner pass to Bozen/Bolzano.
The fastest route from Munich through Switzerland would be
Munich - Lindau - Bregenz (east side of Lake Constance) - Zürich
(northern
end of the yellow line).
change train in Zürich
From Zürich rather straight on the east side of Lake Lucerne (this
route
is
not on this map), from there following the brown line to Lugano.

Alternatively, for a slower, but I think even more spectacular route,
follow the above route as far as Bregenz (or St Margarethen on the
Swiss
side of the border if the train stops there), then travel to Sargans
(local train from St Margarethen, or via Feldkirch if travelling on the
Austrian side -- the Feldkirch - Sargans train passes through
Liechtenstein but doesn't stop there, if you want to cross off another
country!). From Sargans the SBB runs intercity trains to Chur where the
narrow-gauge Rhätische Bahn connects -- you may be able to catch a
direct train to Tirano in Italy (Bernina Express), or have to take a St
Moritz train and change in Samedan and Pontresina. From Tirano you can
get a mainline train to Milano,

That is a truly magnificent route! Doable in a day, though? I rather
doubt
it. If taking two days, travel Munich-Innsbruck leg via Garmisch, rather
than the main line (slower, more spectacular, IMO)

For next Monday, from bahn.hafas.de, but you have to input the route in
stages to get these times!

München Hbf 16.02.04 dep 08:12 EC 196
St. Margrethen 16.02.04 arr 10:53

St. Margrethen 16.02.04 dep 11:31 RE 2811
Chur 16.02.04 arr 12:38

Chur 16.02.04 dep 12:54 D 545
Samedan 16.02.04 arr 14:41

Samedan 16.02.04 dep 14:48 RB 745
Pontresina 16.02.04 arr 14:55

Pontresina 16.02.04 dep 15:03 RB 445
Tirano 16.02.04 arr 17:11

Tirano 16.02.04 dep 18:56 2605
Milano Centrale 16.02.04 arr 21:30

I take my hat off to you, sir!

(And my diversion was irrelevant, I didn't read the start of the route well
enough)

Tony

In message , Tony Day
writes

"Arwel Parry" wrote in message
...

For next Monday, from bahn.hafas.de, but you have to input the route in
stages to get these times!

München Hbf 16.02.04 dep 08:12 EC 196
St. Margrethen 16.02.04 arr 10:53

St. Margrethen 16.02.04 dep 11:31 RE 2811
Chur 16.02.04 arr 12:38

Chur 16.02.04 dep 12:54 D 545
Samedan 16.02.04 arr 14:41

Samedan 16.02.04 dep 14:48 RB 745
Pontresina 16.02.04 arr 14:55

Pontresina 16.02.04 dep 15:03 RB 445
Tirano 16.02.04 arr 17:11

Tirano 16.02.04 dep 18:56 2605
Milano Centrale 16.02.04 arr 21:30

I take my hat off to you, sir!

(And my diversion was irrelevant, I didn't read the start of the route well
enough)

Actually, it _is_ possible to include your diversion in a very long day!

München Hbf 16.02.04 dep 06:30 RB 5407
Innsbruck Hbf 16.02.04 arr 09:21

Innsbruck Hbf 16.02.04 dep 10:49 OEC 562
Feldkirch 16.02.04 arr 12:45

Feldkirch 16.02.04 dep 13:03 D 442
Sargans 16.02.04 arr 13:37

Sargans 16.02.04 dep 13:42 RB 7849
Chur 16.02.04 arr 14:04

Chur 16.02.04 dep 14:54 D 555
Samedan 16.02.04 arr 16:41

Samedan 16.02.04 dep 16:48 RB 755
Pontresina 16.02.04 arr 16:55

Pontresina 16.02.04 dep 17:03 RB 455
Tirano 16.02.04 arr 19:11

Tirano 16.02.04 dep 20:28 R 5297
Sondrio 16.02.04 arr 21:02

Sondrio 16.02.04 dep 21:27 2609
Milano Centrale 16.02.04 arr 23:55


--
Arwel Parry
http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/

"Arwel Parry" wrote in message
...
In message , Tony Day
writes

"Arwel Parry" wrote in message
...

For next Monday, from bahn.hafas.de, but you have to input the route in
stages to get these times!

München Hbf 16.02.04 dep 08:12 EC 196
St. Margrethen 16.02.04 arr 10:53

St. Margrethen 16.02.04 dep 11:31 RE 2811
Chur 16.02.04 arr 12:38

Chur 16.02.04 dep 12:54 D 545
Samedan 16.02.04 arr 14:41

Samedan 16.02.04 dep 14:48 RB 745
Pontresina 16.02.04 arr 14:55

Pontresina 16.02.04 dep 15:03 RB 445
Tirano 16.02.04 arr 17:11

Tirano 16.02.04 dep 18:56 2605
Milano Centrale 16.02.04 arr 21:30

I take my hat off to you, sir!

(And my diversion was irrelevant, I didn't read the start of the route
well
enough)

Actually, it _is_ possible to include your diversion in a very long day!

München Hbf 16.02.04 dep 06:30 RB 5407
Innsbruck Hbf 16.02.04 arr 09:21

Innsbruck Hbf 16.02.04 dep 10:49 OEC 562
Feldkirch 16.02.04 arr 12:45

Feldkirch 16.02.04 dep 13:03 D 442
Sargans 16.02.04 arr 13:37

Sargans 16.02.04 dep 13:42 RB 7849
Chur 16.02.04 arr 14:04

Chur 16.02.04 dep 14:54 D 555
Samedan 16.02.04 arr 16:41

Samedan 16.02.04 dep 16:48 RB 755
Pontresina 16.02.04 arr 16:55

Pontresina 16.02.04 dep 17:03 RB 455
Tirano 16.02.04 arr 19:11

Tirano 16.02.04 dep 20:28 R 5297
Sondrio 16.02.04 arr 21:02

Sondrio 16.02.04 dep 21:27 2609
Milano Centrale 16.02.04 arr 23:55


--
Arwel Parry

I take my other hat off as well! A few more hats, and I will be btotally
exposed to the elements!

Garmisch is good, then, yeah?

But the above sched should not be done in winter - it would be a crime not
to see the Bernina in daylight. OTOH it's marvellous in snow. Springtime?

And beware the polizia on Centrale at dead of night. They zoom about in this
funny little cart thing with a flashing light on a pole! Highly amusing and
terribly photogenic. But don't go there - they get VERY upset! I only just
managed to retain the camera, never mind the film! Oops...

Tony

In message , Tony Day
writes

"Arwel Parry" wrote in message
...
Actually, it _is_ possible to include your diversion in a very long day!

München Hbf 16.02.04 dep 06:30 RB 5407
Innsbruck Hbf 16.02.04 arr 09:21

Innsbruck Hbf 16.02.04 dep 10:49 OEC 562
Feldkirch 16.02.04 arr 12:45

Feldkirch 16.02.04 dep 13:03 D 442
Sargans 16.02.04 arr 13:37

Sargans 16.02.04 dep 13:42 RB 7849
Chur 16.02.04 arr 14:04

Chur 16.02.04 dep 14:54 D 555
Samedan 16.02.04 arr 16:41

Samedan 16.02.04 dep 16:48 RB 755
Pontresina 16.02.04 arr 16:55

Pontresina 16.02.04 dep 17:03 RB 455
Tirano 16.02.04 arr 19:11

Tirano 16.02.04 dep 20:28 R 5297
Sondrio 16.02.04 arr 21:02

Sondrio 16.02.04 dep 21:27 2609
Milano Centrale 16.02.04 arr 23:55


--
Arwel Parry

I take my other hat off as well! A few more hats, and I will be btotally
exposed to the elements!

I'll just call you Zaphod Beeblebrox, then!

Garmisch is good, then, yeah?

Pretty nice -- I've only ever stayed there for a few days in
August/September. I seem to recall there was a hell of a thunderstorm
while I was there, and I suffered the typical German weekend,
shoppingwise! It's a nice place for taking the train up the Zugspitze,
of course.

But the above sched should not be done in winter - it would be a crime not
to see the Bernina in daylight. OTOH it's marvellous in snow. Springtime?

Indeed. I'd suggest May or June would probably be the best time, from
the point of view of daylight. I do however remember my first trip
through the Vorarlberg on an overnight train from Basel to Vienna in
February '84, on a moonlit night - the snow-covered mountains were
magical. That schedule is a lot to do in one day -- I usually stay
somewhere in eastern or southern Switzerland when I'm in the area, the
Hotel Hirsch in Samedan comes to mind, though it's about 15 years since
I stayed there so this isn't a recommendation! I've often thought I'd
like to stay a day or two in Filisur which looks very nice, with
sgraffito painted buildings, and so on. The Bernina Pass route is one of
my favourites, I've walked down from Alp Grum to the next station,
Cavaglia, a few times which is quite a change in a few miles from high
up in the German-speaking pass down to the Italian-speaking valley --
though do wear proper hiking boots 'cos it's pretty steep!

And beware the polizia on Centrale at dead of night. They zoom about in this
funny little cart thing with a flashing light on a pole! Highly amusing and
terribly photogenic. But don't go there - they get VERY upset! I only just
managed to retain the camera, never mind the film! Oops...

My only dealings with the polizia have been at Tirano, where they check
passports when you leave the RhB station (note to the OP: the Trenitalia
station is on the other side of the town square), and I found them
extremely polite and friendly.

--
Arwel Parry
http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/

I have just booked travel for 3 adults from Rome to Frankfurt (Hahn)
for 86 euros including taxes and service fees.
This seems too good to be true. Is there a catch when the taxes are
more than the flight itself? It just seems wrong.
Also ryanair requires 2 hours prior to departure arrival at the
airport. Is this also reasonable? If I have an 8:30 flight should I be
at the airport at 6:30? Is the airport open that early?
Thank you.
Joe

I flown with Ryanair several times (6) to and from "Frankfurt". (Once
to Rome.) I've never had any problems with them, but as others have
said, they allow no changes on any tickets, do not guarantee
connections, and don't provide any "extras" (like snack, drinks, or
assigned seats). I did have a problem in Gothenborg when the plan
couldn't land due to fog, but they bussed us to another airport
further inland where the incoming plane had landed. Other than a long
delay, everything was fine. One thing to be wary of is that they have
a small baggage allowance (1 piece checked, 15 kgs and 1 piece
carry-on, 7 kgs). They also don't fly to the "normal" Rome or
Frankfurt airports. In the case of Rome, they fly to Ciampino, which
is a ~30 min bus ride to Termini. The bus is timed to coincide with
flights and costs (IIRC, Feb 2003) EUR 8. In Frankfurt, they fly to
Hahn which is a 1 hour, 45 minute, EUR 12 ride from the main
station. (Hence the quotes around Frankfurt above.) Keeping these in
mind, my wife and I did elect to fly them as it's a long (14+ hours)
and expensive (EUR 175) train ride. Also, check into Volareweb
(http://www.volareweb.com) which flies Rome-Berlin, Milan-Berlin, or
Venice-Frankfurt (also Hahn).

Whatever you decide, enjoy your trip,
Paul
--
++ A random selection of quotes ++
Science has to suffer when the know-nothings come traipsing through
the laboratories, infecting the research with their religious beliefs
and political ideologies.
++ Bob Hebert, NY Times Columnist on the
targetting of peer-reviewed science by the
Traditional Values Coalition ++
Paul Sanschagrin
http://staff.uni-marburg.de/~sanschag
sanschag@ COMBINE
staff. THESE
uni-marburg. LINES
de

"Joe" wrote
| I have just booked travel for 3 adults from Rome to Frankfurt
| (Hahn) for 86 euros including taxes and service fees.
| This seems too good to be true. Is there a catch when the
| taxes are more than the flight itself? It just seems wrong.

The 'catch' is that Ryanair are an absolutely no-frills airline. Typically
with these, if the aircraft is stuck at the airport for three days that is
where you will be too - forget hotel accommodation, transfer to another
airline, or any form of cossetting. If you miss your flight, tough. If your
flight is delayed and you miss a 'connection', tough.

| Also ryanair requires 2 hours prior to departure arrival at the
| airport. Is this also reasonable?

It's what they demand. The low-cost airlines are pretty merciless; if you
miss your check-in deadline you miss your flight and usually forfeit your
ticket.

| If I have an 8:30 flight should I be at the airport at 6:30?
| Is the airport open that early?

Should be, check-in counter may not be, but you start queueing nonetheless.

On the up side, you've paid next to nothing for your flights, their pilots
are as well-trained and their aircraft as well-maintained as any other
European airline, and Ryanair *will* get you there eventually.

Take a plastic bottle of water and a book for any long waits :-)

Owain