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#11
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Pickpockets
Following up to TMOliver
Perhaps in Andalucia having found a role has helped them. The gitanos of Andalucia are a long way from having been Gypsies, How do you mean? They are perhaps more settled than others, having to some extent taken the place of the expelled moors. But they entered Spain as gypsies. Flamenco of course is a fusion of Andalucia and Gypsy and no doubt the flamenco familes are similarly mixed now. -- Mike Reid Flamenco, the European blues "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/andalus.htm#flamenco" (see webpage for email) |
#12
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Pickpockets
The Reid wrote:
Following up to Deep Freud Moors They looked like they could have been from northern India! the Spanish gitanos are supposed to have come from India. Many could easily pass for Indian, certainly. David -- David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk davidhorne (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk |
#13
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Pickpockets
than you propebly have not opened your eyes. Putting all people of one
group in a general group is a thing people used to do 50 years back in Europe! Are you living in the past? Piero wrote: I've never (and none of my friends has) seen a Gipsie doing OTHER THAN begging, stealing or cursing. Therefore, they're criminals. Full stop. |
#14
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Pickpockets
The Reid vented spleen or mostly mumbled...
Following up to TMOliver Perhaps in Andalucia having found a role has helped them. The gitanos of Andalucia are a long way from having been Gypsies, How do you mean? They are perhaps more settled than others, The "gitanos" od urban Andalucia, principally Seville, have very little "Gypsy" (Romany) blood, their ancestors having intermarried/mingled with the indigenous stock over a number of centuries. having to some extent taken the place of the expelled moors. Most of the "Moors" (excepting real honest to goodness "Moors" of the ruling class) weren't "expelled". Much of the population of Southern Spain under the Moors were original indigenous stock who converted to Islam for practical survival purposes during the centuries of Moorish domination. In the same vein that Henri of Navarre claimed that "Paris is worth a Mass.", they became subject to "battlefield baptism"/conversion back to or to Christianity. Southern Spain was occupied by a thin overlay of Christian Spanish military/nobility and the Church. But they entered Spain as gypsies. Flamenco of course is a fusion of Andalucia and Gypsy and no doubt the flamenco familes are similarly mixed now. More than mixed, likely, with the original dose of Gypsy having diminished over the centuries to a smidgeon of DNA, about as "Gypsy" as folks in Aberdeen are "Picts" or the shopkeepers of Plymouth "Britons". I would have thought that one who traveled so extensively in Spain would have spent a bit more time with some of the available histories, etc.. Many common Andalucian and Spanish family names are almost pure Arabic in origin, evidence that the "moors" left more behind than simply a few palces and place names. The easy ones to see are those names which begin with "Al". TMO |
#15
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Pickpockets
Following up to TMOliver
Most of the "Moors" (excepting real honest to goodness "Moors" of the ruling class) weren't "expelled". Much of the population of Southern Spain under the Moors were original indigenous stock who converted to Islam for practical survival purposes during the centuries of Moorish domination......... ........I would have thought that one who traveled so extensively in Spain would have spent a bit more time with some of the available histories, etc.. Well, at least i'm not "wetting my nappies" anymore, it seems. Progress. "In 1610, when the general expulsion of the moors had begun..." Gypsies and Flamenco, Leblon, Gypsy Research Centre, University of Hertfordshire. This source talks of gypsy replacing moor, who am I to argue? More than mixed, likely, with the original dose of Gypsy having diminished over the centuries to a smidgeon of DNA, about as "Gypsy" as folks in Aberdeen are "Picts" or the shopkeepers of Plymouth "Britons". I think that is an exaggeration. From what I read mass sedentarisation happened over the course of the 18C, looking at other communities, this is not long enough for gyspy blood to be watered down to the insignificant, especially given the various periods of persecution. Many common Andalucian and Spanish family names are almost pure Arabic in origin, evidence that the "moors" left more behind than simply a few palces and place names. The easy ones to see are those names which begin with "Al". I may not meet your exacting standards of scolarship but even I had noticed the Al. Anyway, I did not say the moorish influence was limited to a few place names or that *all* moors left (but there were expulsions). ".....in spite of the inquisition and the expulsion edicts, did not renounce the islamic legacy" (Moorish Architecture in Andalucia - Barrucano) although it didnt stop then building a cathederal in the middle of a mosque, although the legacy is clear enough in Cordoban cuisine. -- Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso UK walking "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap |
#16
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Pickpockets
Following up to TMOliver
Somebody has to buy second hand dark colored Cadillacs..... If you must buy a Cadillac surely that would be superior to a white stretch one. Anything is superior to that. -- Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso UK walking "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap |
#17
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Pickpockets
The Reid wrote:
Anyway, I did not say the moorish influence was limited to a few place names or that *all* moors left (but there were expulsions). There's a religious "timeline" on display at Malaga Cathedral which completely ignores the Moors. It was about the only time I ever felt slightly ****ed off while in Spain. David -- David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk davidhorne (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk |
#18
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Pickpockets
Following up to David Horne
Anyway, I did not say the moorish influence was limited to a few place names or that *all* moors left (but there were expulsions). There's a religious "timeline" on display at Malaga Cathedral which completely ignores the Moors. It was about the only time I ever felt slightly ****ed off while in Spain. that's the Catholic church for you, completely uncatholic :-) -- Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso UK walking "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap |
#19
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Pickpockets
The Reid vented spleen or mostly mumbled...
"In 1610, when the general expulsion of the moors had begun..." Gypsies and Flamenco, Leblon, Gypsy Research Centre, University of Hertfordshire. This source talks of gypsy replacing moor, who am I to argue? While sources are sources, I'd be quite uncomfortable relying on any publication which claims that the general expulsion of the Moors began in or about 1610. Dates for the completion of the Reconquista are substantially earlier, and the timeframe with which generations of school boys (at least the US variety) have been encumbered is: "Well, I know it happened shortly before 1492...." TMO |
#20
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Pickpockets
Following up to TMOliver
While sources are sources, I'd be quite uncomfortable relying on any publication which claims that the general expulsion of the Moors began in or about 1610. Dates for the completion of the Reconquista are substantially earlier, and the timeframe with which generations of school boys (at least the US variety) have been encumbered is: "Well, I know it happened shortly before 1492...." (The reconquest does not feature much in UK school history) I think the reconquest and expulsions are not the same thing. The 1610 event being due to dissatisfaction with the "conversion" of many "ex-moors". (your "battlefield conversions" no doubt) IIRC Toledo tolerated everybody long after the reconquest but eventually threw out moors and jews. I think anybody writing a book about Andalucia would be familiar with the date of the reconquest and would have been aware 1610 was not it. My sketchy impression is that the States General of 1610 became for some reason alarmed about both gypsies and moors and Philip IV in 1633 reinforced this with further anti gypsy law. It may be significant that there was a moorish revolt in 1569. Another bit about those particular expulsions:- "Expelling citizens from the Country was not good policy, since when the moors were driven out in 1613, in considerable numbers, they left behind then deserted houses and fields, and abandoned trades." The council prosecutor adds that there was a great deal more to be gained by profiting from these circumstances to encourage gypsies to replace the deportees and that some did so spontaneously...... Campomanes 1763 hence gypsies replacing moors and becoming sedentary. -- Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso UK walking "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap |
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