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#21
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Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes
On Apr 3, 10:33 am, Martin wrote:
On 3 Apr 2007 08:08:59 -0700, "Iceman" wrote: On Apr 3, 9:02 am, "William Black" wrote: "Iceman" wrote in message I'm all in favour of travelling by train, or even bus. However I have to travel from the North of England to India once or twice a year. Over that distance it is unrealistic to travel any other way besides plane. But trains should replace most short-distance flights. There should hardly be any domestic flights anywhere in Western Europe. A lot of the concern about aviation CO2 emissions is from the very rapid growth in short-distance flights worldwide. Long-distance flights are far more polluting but are still a tiny percentage of all flights. Total world aviation CO2 production accounts for less than 2% of the CO2 being generated. Why the emphasis? What percentage do car internal combustion engines produce? If aviation is as small a contributor to global CO2 as you indicate, then the focus on aviation is indeed misplaced. While automobiles, power generation and heating are the big three causes of CO2 emissions, I have heard figures more like 7% from aviation, and that emissions several miles high have a much stronger greenhouse effect than emissions at ground level. I am welcome to be persuaded otherwise however. Do you have a good source? |
#22
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Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes
"Iceman" kirjoitti glegroups.com... Many aspects of air travel are heavily subsidized by governments, while rail systems are often underfunded and neglected. The plane really shouldn't be that cheap, nor the train that expensive. __________________________________________________ _______ I guess not so much anymore subsidized. Building and maintaing railroads is very expensive. For airplanes you have to build roads only for landings and take offs. |
#23
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Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes
On Apr 3, 10:32 am, Markku Grönroos wrote:
"Iceman" kirjoitti legroups.com... Travelling by bus, except you can't travel to India by bus any more because the USA has turned a reasonable proportion of the intervening terrain into a war zone. Believe it or not, that was a popular road trip in the 1970's. From Western Europe to Istanbul, and then to Kathmandu passing through Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India. I guess it is rather popular even today. It was possible at least until a few years ago if you skipped Afghanistan and if you could get an Iranian transit visa (I don't know whether Americans can). The Australian travel writer Peter Moore did it around 2000, and almost got himself killed in Afghanistan. Virtually no one does it anymore though. I doubt the Iranian government wants Westerners wandering around right now, and I'm not even sure if you can still pass through Pakistan safely. |
#24
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Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes
As far as carbondioxide is concerned,
exhalation naturally emits it. Which way conserves nature better: walking or running. Man also farts around 300 milliliters of gas per day. In order to maintain decent digestion we must leak a bit. This should be an excellent opportunity for tax collection: more energy flows through man's system, more he pollutes and pays for the "keep the environment tidy" tax. On a serious note, cows produce more greenhouse gases than air travel, maybe we should all be forced to become veggies, and put the cows on a train to India. |
#25
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Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes
On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:30:09 +0200, Martin
wrote: On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 08:02:24 -0700, Hatunen wrote: On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:04:17 +0200, Martin wrote: On 3 Apr 2007 06:52:27 -0700, "ocelot" wrote: Martin is just being argumentative......again I was wondering why you cut and paste these articles to rte. It certainly seems appropriate to travel in Europe. Do you believe all this crap? First you need to demonstrate it really is crap instead of doing all that arm waving. What arm waving? Somebody cuts and pastes an article which has no references to how or by whom the figures were obtained and I am supposed to accept it? Until I see a scientific basis for such articles I treat them as crap. That's fine. But once you go public with your objection that the comparison was unfair it behooves you to know what you are talking about. Frankly, I suspect you, like the rest of us human beings, take many news reports at face value -- unless we disagree with them, and I seriously doubt you treat them *all* as "crap", only the ones you don't happen to like. -- ************* DAVE HATUNEN ) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * |
#26
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Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes
On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 16:26:11 +0100, "William Black"
wrote: "Hatunen" wrote in message .. . On 3 Apr 2007 08:08:59 -0700, "Iceman" wrote: On Apr 3, 9:02 am, "William Black" wrote: "Iceman" wrote in message I'm all in favour of travelling by train, or even bus. However I have to travel from the North of England to India once or twice a year. Over that distance it is unrealistic to travel any other way besides plane. But trains should replace most short-distance flights. There should hardly be any domestic flights anywhere in Western Europe. I wonder if the rails have the capacity to carry all the extra traffic now carried by short-haul airlines? Price is an issue as well. Travelling on the train across borders in Europe is an expensive way to travel compared to low cost air travel. I can fly to Prague for £40, I can't get to a UK point of exit for France on a train for that ... True. But the subject here is harm to the environment. If you factor in the cost to society of that, what is the true cost of your cheap air ticket. By the by, what's the total final cost when you buy one of those £40 tickets, taxes and fees included? Also by the by, this thread is about short-haul flights, not London-Prague flights. Unless that is a short haul flight, which is what I'm asking. -- ************* DAVE HATUNEN ) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * |
#27
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Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes
On Apr 3, 4:14 pm, Martin wrote:
On 03 Apr 2007 14:01:43 GMT, Bert Hyman wrote: (ocelot) wrote in roups.com: Martin is just being argumentative......again Well, so am I. Isn't that why we're here? and aren't we all having a jolly nice time doing it? More fun than cut and pasting any day. ) -- Martin oh no it isnt..... |
#28
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Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes
On 3 Apr 2007 08:34:11 -0700, "Iceman"
wrote: Many aspects of air travel are heavily subsidized by governments, while rail systems are often underfunded and neglected. The plane really shouldn't be that cheap, nor the train that expensive. Underfunded in the USA and the UK, maybe. But certainly the rail systems are subsidized in France and Germany, although some of the subsidies are hidden. In France, for isntance, the true cost of the electricity is rather difficult to determine. Even where privatized, as in the UK, the new private companies do not have to cover the cost of the original installation of the track and signalling system, which happened many, many years ago; this is a form of subsidy. -- ************* DAVE HATUNEN ) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * |
#29
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Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes
On Apr 3, 4:11 pm, Martin wrote:
On 03 Apr 2007 13:47:39 GMT, Bert Hyman wrote: (Martin) wrote in : On 03 Apr 2007 13:36:56 GMT, Bert Hyman wrote: (Martin) wrote in : On 3 Apr 2007 05:20:08 -0700, "ocelot" wrote: Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes Is "ten times less" the same as "one tenth"? Taking into account the CO2 generated during manufacture of the rails, boring the tunnels and other mundane things that are for some reason are excluded? Presumably then, you've made the same accounting for the manufacture of the aircraft, the construction and maintenance of the airports and the extraction, distillation and transport of the fuel "and other mundane things that are for some reason [are] excluded"? er I'm not the one making silly claims for Eurostar. No, but you were the one asking whether certain external factors were taken into account in the determination of railway CO2 emissions; a not unreasonable thing to do considering the scientific unreliability of most of what is published in the press. I was simply asking whether you want to make similar adjustments when talking about air travel. I was asking for clarification of the article that our nerd in Belgium cut and pasted. The same nerd flew to and from Holland weekly, when he could have made the same trip by train. -- Martin what r u talking about ?? |
#30
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Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes
On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:38:01 +0200, Martin
wrote: On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 16:26:11 +0100, "William Black" wrote: "Hatunen" wrote in message . .. On 3 Apr 2007 08:08:59 -0700, "Iceman" wrote: On Apr 3, 9:02 am, "William Black" wrote: Two weeks ago, it cost my daughter more for a single train ticket from Stoke on Trent to Scarborough than for a return flight to Amsterdam from Manchester. So long as you are comparing apples and apples the comparison would be fair. But there's a tendency to cite costs of an advance air fare against the cost of not-so advance rail fares. -- ************* DAVE HATUNEN ) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * |
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