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Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes



 
 
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  #21  
Old April 3rd, 2007, 04:37 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
Iceman
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Posts: 877
Default Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes

On Apr 3, 10:33 am, Martin wrote:
On 3 Apr 2007 08:08:59 -0700, "Iceman" wrote:



On Apr 3, 9:02 am, "William Black"
wrote:
"Iceman" wrote in message


I'm all in favour of travelling by train, or even bus.


However I have to travel from the North of England to India once or twice a
year.


Over that distance it is unrealistic to travel any other way besides
plane. But trains should replace most short-distance flights. There
should hardly be any domestic flights anywhere in Western Europe. A
lot of the concern about aviation CO2 emissions is from the very rapid
growth in short-distance flights worldwide. Long-distance flights are
far more polluting but are still a tiny percentage of all flights.


Total world aviation CO2 production accounts for less than 2% of the CO2 being
generated. Why the emphasis? What percentage do car internal combustion engines
produce?



If aviation is as small a contributor to global CO2 as you indicate,
then the focus on aviation is indeed misplaced. While automobiles,
power generation and heating are the big three causes of CO2
emissions, I have heard figures more like 7% from aviation, and that
emissions several miles high have a much stronger greenhouse effect
than emissions at ground level. I am welcome to be persuaded
otherwise however. Do you have a good source?

  #22  
Old April 3rd, 2007, 04:40 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
Markku Grönroos
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Posts: 2,095
Default Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes


"Iceman" kirjoitti
glegroups.com...


Many aspects of air travel are heavily subsidized by governments,
while rail systems are often underfunded and neglected. The plane
really shouldn't be that cheap, nor the train that expensive.

__________________________________________________ _______

I guess not so much anymore subsidized. Building and maintaing railroads is
very expensive. For airplanes you have to build roads only for landings and
take offs.

  #23  
Old April 3rd, 2007, 04:48 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
Iceman
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Posts: 877
Default Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes

On Apr 3, 10:32 am, Markku Grönroos wrote:
"Iceman" kirjoitti
legroups.com...

Travelling by bus, except you can't travel to India by bus any more
because
the USA has turned a reasonable proportion of the intervening terrain
into a
war zone.


Believe it or not, that was a popular road trip in the 1970's. From
Western Europe to Istanbul, and then to Kathmandu passing through
Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India.


I guess it is rather popular even today.



It was possible at least until a few years ago if you skipped
Afghanistan and if you could get an Iranian transit visa (I don't know
whether Americans can). The Australian travel writer Peter Moore did
it around 2000, and almost got himself killed in Afghanistan.
Virtually no one does it anymore though. I doubt the Iranian
government wants Westerners wandering around right now, and I'm not
even sure if you can still pass through Pakistan safely.

  #24  
Old April 3rd, 2007, 04:52 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
Miss L. Toe
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Posts: 380
Default Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes

As far as carbondioxide is concerned,
exhalation naturally emits it. Which way conserves nature better: walking

or
running. Man also farts around 300 milliliters of gas per day. In order to
maintain decent digestion we must leak a bit. This should be an excellent
opportunity for tax collection: more energy flows through man's system,

more
he pollutes and pays for the "keep the environment tidy" tax.


On a serious note, cows produce more greenhouse gases than air travel, maybe
we should all be forced to become veggies, and put the cows on a train to
India.


  #25  
Old April 3rd, 2007, 04:57 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
Hatunen
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Posts: 4,483
Default Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes

On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:30:09 +0200, Martin
wrote:

On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 08:02:24 -0700, Hatunen wrote:

On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:04:17 +0200, Martin
wrote:

On 3 Apr 2007 06:52:27 -0700, "ocelot" wrote:

Martin is just being argumentative......again

I was wondering why you cut and paste these articles to rte.


It certainly seems appropriate to travel in Europe.

Do you believe all this crap?


First you need to demonstrate it really is crap instead of doing
all that arm waving.


What arm waving? Somebody cuts and pastes an article which has no references to
how or by whom the figures were obtained and I am supposed to accept it?
Until I see a scientific basis for such articles I treat them as crap.


That's fine. But once you go public with your objection that the
comparison was unfair it behooves you to know what you are
talking about.

Frankly, I suspect you, like the rest of us human beings, take
many news reports at face value -- unless we disagree with them,
and I seriously doubt you treat them *all* as "crap", only the
ones you don't happen to like.

--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
  #26  
Old April 3rd, 2007, 05:03 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
Hatunen
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Posts: 4,483
Default Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes

On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 16:26:11 +0100, "William Black"
wrote:


"Hatunen" wrote in message
.. .
On 3 Apr 2007 08:08:59 -0700, "Iceman"
wrote:

On Apr 3, 9:02 am, "William Black"
wrote:
"Iceman" wrote in message

I'm all in favour of travelling by train, or even bus.

However I have to travel from the North of England to India once or
twice a
year.


Over that distance it is unrealistic to travel any other way besides
plane. But trains should replace most short-distance flights. There
should hardly be any domestic flights anywhere in Western Europe.


I wonder if the rails have the capacity to carry all the extra
traffic now carried by short-haul airlines?


Price is an issue as well.

Travelling on the train across borders in Europe is an expensive way to
travel compared to low cost air travel.

I can fly to Prague for £40, I can't get to a UK point of exit for France
on a train for that ...


True. But the subject here is harm to the environment. If you
factor in the cost to society of that, what is the true cost of
your cheap air ticket.

By the by, what's the total final cost when you buy one of those
£40 tickets, taxes and fees included?

Also by the by, this thread is about short-haul flights, not
London-Prague flights. Unless that is a short haul flight, which
is what I'm asking.

--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
  #27  
Old April 3rd, 2007, 05:04 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
ocelot
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Posts: 42
Default Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes

On Apr 3, 4:14 pm, Martin wrote:
On 03 Apr 2007 14:01:43 GMT, Bert Hyman wrote:

(ocelot) wrote in
roups.com:


Martin is just being argumentative......again


Well, so am I.


Isn't that why we're here?


and aren't we all having a jolly nice time doing it?

More fun than cut and pasting any day. )
--

Martin


oh no it isnt.....

  #28  
Old April 3rd, 2007, 05:08 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
Hatunen
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Posts: 4,483
Default Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes

On 3 Apr 2007 08:34:11 -0700, "Iceman"
wrote:

Many aspects of air travel are heavily subsidized by governments,
while rail systems are often underfunded and neglected. The plane
really shouldn't be that cheap, nor the train that expensive.


Underfunded in the USA and the UK, maybe. But certainly the rail
systems are subsidized in France and Germany, although some of
the subsidies are hidden. In France, for isntance, the true cost
of the electricity is rather difficult to determine.

Even where privatized, as in the UK, the new private companies do
not have to cover the cost of the original installation of the
track and signalling system, which happened many, many years ago;
this is a form of subsidy.

--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
  #29  
Old April 3rd, 2007, 05:09 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
ocelot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 42
Default Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes

On Apr 3, 4:11 pm, Martin wrote:
On 03 Apr 2007 13:47:39 GMT, Bert Hyman wrote:



(Martin) wrote in
:


On 03 Apr 2007 13:36:56 GMT, Bert Hyman wrote:


(Martin) wrote in
:


On 3 Apr 2007 05:20:08 -0700, "ocelot"
wrote:


Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes


Is "ten times less" the same as "one tenth"?


Taking into account the CO2 generated during manufacture of the
rails, boring the tunnels and other mundane things that are for
some reason are excluded?


Presumably then, you've made the same accounting for the
manufacture of the aircraft, the construction and maintenance of
the airports and the extraction, distillation and transport of the
fuel "and other mundane things that are for some reason [are]
excluded"?


er I'm not the one making silly claims for Eurostar.


No, but you were the one asking whether certain external factors
were taken into account in the determination of railway CO2
emissions;


a not unreasonable thing to do considering the scientific unreliability of most
of what is published in the press.

I was simply asking whether you want to make similar
adjustments when talking about air travel.


I was asking for clarification of the article that our nerd in Belgium cut and
pasted. The same nerd flew to and from Holland weekly, when he could have made
the same trip by train.
--

Martin


what r u talking about ??

  #30  
Old April 3rd, 2007, 05:10 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
Hatunen
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Posts: 4,483
Default Eurostar generates ten times less CO2 than flying the same routes

On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:38:01 +0200, Martin
wrote:

On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 16:26:11 +0100, "William Black"
wrote:


"Hatunen" wrote in message
. ..
On 3 Apr 2007 08:08:59 -0700, "Iceman"
wrote:

On Apr 3, 9:02 am, "William Black"
wrote:

Two weeks ago, it cost my daughter more for a single train ticket from Stoke on
Trent to Scarborough than for a return flight to Amsterdam from Manchester.


So long as you are comparing apples and apples the comparison
would be fair. But there's a tendency to cite costs of an advance
air fare against the cost of not-so advance rail fares.

--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
 




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