Tipping in USA/Canada

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 14:29:27 -0600, James Robinson
mangled uncounted electrons thus:

Martin D. Pay wrote:

(Dennis P. Harris) mangled uncounted electrons thus:

it's an unfortunate fact of life
that the american restaurant industry has refused to pay their
employees a living wage and expects them to live off tips, to the
point that it's actually the law and they will be taxed on tips
that the govt expects them to receive even if they don't.

That's the bit I find extraordinary! Can the worker reclaim any
overpaid tax at the end of the year, if they can demonstrate a
lower actual income than the amount on which they've been
charged? (Even with the rapacious tax regime in the UK, this is
possible.)

The tax authority (IRS) estimates what the person should receive in tips
based on the total sales of the restaurant, and tax returns filed by other
people in similar jobs. If the amount reported by someone varies
significantly from the estimates, the onus is on them to prove why they are
different than the trend. In many cases, they simply take the easiest
course and accept the IRS estimate.

Good... grief... @_@

Martin D. Pay
Nothing witty comes to mind...

"Craig Welch" wrote:
"JohnT" said:
So the customer has to pay his/her server's minimum
wage in addition to paying for the food and the tax.

As in every country in the world.
In the US, it's just structured differently.

Tipping does more to ensure that wait staff receives
a just wage than would funneling it thru management.

So the customer has to pay his/her server's minimum wage in addition
to paying for the food and the tax.

Yeah. Think of it as an implicitly itemized bill.

When I was in England earlier this year, I noted the the prices in
restaurants in the UK were about the same as in the US, except that
the prices were in pounds, so something that cost 20 dollars in the US
would cost 20 pounds in the UK. Even after you leave a tip, I think
you'll find that restaurant prices in the US are not out of line with
prices in other developed countries.

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 00:44:10 GMT in rec.travel.air, "Jeff"
wrote:

The OP was planning a trip to the U.S. and Canada. (And in Europe, when
there is not a service charge added to the bill, it is customary to tip as
well. But each European country their customs may vary).

and as i said in a later post, the custom has changed over the
past 25-30 years so that service is usually included on the bill.
when i was in france 3 years ago, i found that about half the
restaurants itemized service separately, and about half did not.

in the early 80s, about half would itemize service on the bill,
usually about 15% of the cost of the meal, and about half would
leave it off but expect the customer to add it. when it wasn't
on the bill, i would always ask if it was included.

i can only speak to my experience in britain and france. i have
been told that italians still tip. even if they aren't
compulsory, i have always found that a little extra to the staff
always ensured special treatment, except in NZ & oz, where folks
would be insulted if you offered a gratuity. since my kiwi
friends had warned me about this, i never made that mistake.

On Nov 9, 10:41 pm, Robert Cohen wrote:
On Nov 8, 8:13 pm, Hatunen wrote:





On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 16:35:09 -0800, Robert Cohen

wrote:
i suppose one
u.s. dollar per customer at a non-pretentious dinner or at a now
very common buffet restaurant is reasonable, or
in other words, two dollars per couple, et cetera--

you can certainly eventually get sick of 'em, but ryan's and the
other buffet restaurants convey unlimited and many varities of food,
and i bet few places in the world are this way, ten dollars or less
person, unlimited goood food

at the fancier class restaurants, tip at least ten percent of the
total bill, and of course many or rmost people leave 15 percent or
twenty percent or more

you'll feel ripped-off at yuppie places like ruby fridays, so wendy et
al fast food and those amazing buffet places are best for budget
traveller

for clothes and chotskies go to the tangar shopping outlet places
and several other factory outlet places is where the people genrally
seem to be especially on weekends

the u.s.a. is pndeed complex, so a guide book wouldn't hurt

if one is not affluent, one goes to wendy's etal

You can't kid me. You're really Archie the Cockroach, aren't you?

--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

fyi and rationalization and in the vein of frommer's europe on five
dollars per day:

there is that declasse underside of the continent that the usual
tourist guidebooks probably ignore- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

the economics of restaurant patronage and everything else in an
often depressing reality

a few days ago, an olive garden (owned by darden) had people waiting
for a table for lunch, and that estimated 30 minutes of waiting around
would be to me a sort of torture

other nearby restaurants, including the somewhat more expensive
darden's red lobster where we ended up. were not seemingly as crowded
(one can also estimate from the number of cars in an eatery's parking
lot if too lazy to go inside the bldg)

buyers certainly do tend to be price conscious, and it doesn't take
einstein (or the "hungrygarian" teller) to perceive a basic simple
phenomenon that the "too busy" olive garden is simply perceived as
"better value" or considered "relatively cheaper"

and my profoundly shallow point is?

banal, crass, normative economics isn't physics, plus a-hole elitists
should f themselves

"John L" wrote in message
...
So the customer has to pay his/her server's minimum wage in addition
to paying for the food and the tax.

Yeah. Think of it as an implicitly itemized bill.

When I was in England earlier this year, I noted the the prices in
restaurants in the UK were about the same as in the US, except that
the prices were in pounds, so something that cost 20 dollars in the US
would cost 20 pounds in the UK. Even after you leave a tip, I think
you'll find that restaurant prices in the US are not out of line with
prices in other developed countries.




I don't argue that often prices in the UK are much higher than in the USA.
Prices in London are obscenely high, but tend to be more reasonable
throughout much of the rest of the UK. But I do find it very strange that in
a highly-developed Society such as the USA whoever serves a meal may well be
paid much less than the minimum legal wage. And surely the USA (plus,
perhaps, Canada) is the only territory where taxes are not included in the
quoted cost. So, in New York for example, a meal nominally costing $25 would
actually cost $25 + 8.25% + 15%, which is more than $31.
--

JohnT

Qanset wrote:
snip
... I try to be flexible when observing local customs, but I
will not be bullied into tipping, which I have seen happen.

Tipping in the US is like trying to speak French in France; do it, and
people smile. After all, one reason for traveling is to interact with
the locals, and it has to be more fun than just looking at the scenery
while treating the people like robots. Interaction with waiters and so
on isn't always just about money.

Louis

On Nov 11, 3:32 pm, "JohnT" wrote:
"John L" wrote in message

...

So the customer has to pay his/her server's minimum wage in addition
to paying for the food and the tax.

Yeah. Think of it as an implicitly itemized bill.

When I was in England earlier this year, I noted the the prices in
restaurants in the UK were about the same as in the US, except that
the prices were in pounds, so something that cost 20 dollars in the US
would cost 20 pounds in the UK. Even after you leave a tip, I think
you'll find that restaurant prices in the US are not out of line with
prices in other developed countries.

I don't argue that often prices in the UK are much higher than in the USA.
Prices in London are obscenely high, but tend to be more reasonable
throughout much of the rest of the UK. But I do find it very strange that in
a highly-developed Society such as the USA whoever serves a meal may well be
paid much less than the minimum legal wage.

Actually I think it's a better system. Everyone should get paid in
tips. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, every one. Pay people according
to the quality of the service they provide rather than everyone
getting the same pay regardless of their performance.

And surely the USA (plus,
perhaps, Canada) is the only territory where taxes are not included in the
quoted cost. So, in New York for example, a meal nominally costing $25 would
actually cost $25 + 8.25% + 15%, which is more than $31.

Apparently you've never been out of Europe or US. In most places of
the world, prices are quoted ++ which means service and taxes
additional.

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 01:59:28 -0800, Tchiowa wrote:

Actually I think it's a better system. Everyone should get paid in
tips. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, every one. Pay people according
to the quality of the service they provide rather than everyone
getting the same pay regardless of their performance.

Yup, it's irrational the system is only applied to some service industries
and not others. In fact, if it's such a good system why shouldn't it be
applied to _all_ goods and services - why just the waiter and not the meal,
the ambience, the facilities?

In fact, tipping is a lousy system. Sure, it benefits the restaurateur as he
can transfer wage costs onto the customers; it benefits the wait staff as
they can hide their income from the tax authorities, and it benefits the
"stiffer" as they can transfer part of their meal cost onto their fellow
customer. But the honest, tipping patrons ends up making up the missing tax,
and subsidising the restaurateur and other patrons, which doesn't sound like
a good deal to me.

Even worse than the voluntary tipping system is the compulsory tip (aka
"service charge"), which is rarely, if ever, displayed prominently in the
hope the customer will be stupid enough to tip twice. It's a particularly
invidious scam because it's generally set at 5-10% below the normal tip
level, making regular tippers feel they're not giving enough. They are, of
course, because this time everyone's paying and it shows how much they
subsidise the non-tipper's meal normally.

DaveM

Craig Welch wrote:
Wendy's is a fast food outlet. It does not serve
quality, tasty food. Period.

Of all the fast food joints out there, I've found its food
to be fresher and higher quality than the others, and
for similar menu items, it compares favorably to some
sit-down restaurants, i.e. Chili's, TGI Friday's, Ruby
Tuesday or Benngan's. What Wendy's lacks are the
more ambitious menu items, ambienence and alcohol.