Cuba Travel Ban

mrtravel wrote:
even banned.. I find it interesting when Americans compare minor
invonviences with how things used to be in the USSR.

The problem is that a regime in the USA might decide to prevent americans from
travelling to any other country they decide is part of their "axis-of-evil-du-jour".

It is one thing to have a state advisory advising against travel to a country,
but another to use domestic laws to control your citizens while outside your
own jurisdiction.

Yes, there are internationally agreed "crimes" such as child prostitution
where the home country of a citizen has the right to punish its own citizens
for using such services outside their jurisdiction. But there are no agreed
upon "crimes" associated with going to a resort , enjoy the sun, food and beach.

devil wrote:

They would watch them transfer to US bound flights.


That would entail (1) US immigration personnel having access to
international arrival, or (2) them having to stay outside of international
arrival and then following people to US departure.

If, however, the customer stops for a coffee in between, will they keep
watching on the odd chance the guy who arrived from Cuba will be
eventually boarding a flight to Milwaukee rather than to Calgary?

Anyway, easy to work around if you are aware that they might be watching.
Another option would be to overnight in Canada between flights.

I know that this might sound kind of difficult to take, but in a lot of
cases, it isn't as difficult as you think to pick which people are
American, especially for trained people.

Vitaly Shmatikov wrote:

In article ,
Miguel Cruz wrote:

Soviet citizens could freely travel to approved countries (Poland,
Romania,
what have you).

Bull****. One needed an exit visa for travel to *any* country,
including Poland and Romania. An exit visa to Bulgaria might have been
marginally easier to obtain than one to West Germany, but you don't
really think an average Soviet citizen could get up and say ``why,
I feel like going to Poland today,'' buy a ticket and go, do you?
Do you know what was involved in submitting an application for a
``foreign'' (as opposed to regular domestic) passport in the USSR?


Correct. A trip to Budapest or Warsaw or Sofia for the average Soviet
citizen was just about as difficult to arrange as a trip to Paris or London
or Tokyo, e.g. well - nigh impossible. Remember, at the time Soviet
citizens had to seek permission for even *internal* travel within the USSR.
If they were lucky, a Soviet citizen *might* get permission to travel to
Latvia or Estonia or Lithuania (which were referred to as "our abroad") for
a holiday.

Travel to East Berlin/East Germany was even more heavily circumscribed for
Soviet citizens. The reason? It was thought that western TV, radio, and
general western influences in the DDR could "contaminate" any Soviet
citizen who has less than ideologically stalwart. Sounds silly now, but
it's true.

Also, the Soviets were afraid for their citizens to see how much better the
average person lived even in some dump like Romania or Bulgaria....they
might get "ideas", ya know. Soviet propaganda at the time *constantly*
hammered on the theme that citizens of the USSR had the highest standard of
living in the world, bar *none*....

Soviets travelling abroad, even to "fraternal" countries, had to attend
special agit - prop classes to "prepare" for their journeys abroad. No
ideological slackers allowed!

--
Best
Greg

In article ,
Lazy Racoon wrote:

The problem is that a regime in the USA might decide to prevent americans from
travelling to any other country they decide is part of their "axis-of-evil-du-jour".

Americans are not prevented from traveling to any country. They are
prevented from spending money in some countries, just like they are
prevented from trafficking in stolen property at home. Since it is
not feasible to apprehend them and put in jail, criminals like Castro
and his gang must at least be prevented from deriving any income from
the properties they stole.

Yes, there are internationally agreed "crimes" such as child prostitution
where the home country of a citizen has the right to punish its own citizens
for using such services outside their jurisdiction. But there are no agreed
upon "crimes" associated with going to a resort , enjoy the sun, food and beach.

Which is precisely why US regulations wrt travel to Cuba do not
prohibit *going* to a resort, or enjoying the sun, food and beach.
*Spending money* at a Cuban resort, however, is no different from buying
a used TV from a thief who is known to have stolen it. There are laws
to prevent and punish trafficking in stolen property, and they should
be enforced to punish those who spend money in Cuba.

devil wrote:
mrtravel wrote:
Ritwik Bhattacharya wrote:
Miguel Cruz wrote:
Americans who fly through Canada and the Bahamas can be observed
disembarking from Cuba flights by US immgration personnel who work in
those airports.

What does "observed" mean? Are US immigration personnel allowed to look
at the passports of disembarking people? If not, how could they
ascertain someone was American?

They would watch them transfer to US bound flights.

That would entail (1) US immigration personnel having access to
international arrival, or (2) them having to stay outside of international
arrival and then following people to US departure.

Not too hard. Whenever a Cuba flight lands (which isn't that often), a few
people can go over to the arrivals area and eyeball a few groups that seem
like they might be Americans. Then they can wander over to the US
preclearance area and watch for those people.

There's little cost to guessing wrong. Worst-case scenarios: either the
people never show up at pre-clearance, or they do and after a couple
questions or a glance at the passport it's clear they weren't in Cuba.

miguel
--
See the world from your web browser: http://travel.u.nu/

Vitaly Shmatikov wrote:


Which is precisely why US regulations wrt travel to Cuba do not
prohibit *going* to a resort, or enjoying the sun, food and beach.
*Spending money* at a Cuban resort, however, is no different from buying
a used TV from a thief who is known to have stolen it.

How do you go to a resort without spending money. The resorts aren't free.

Vitaly Shmatikov wrote:
Miguel Cruz wrote:
Soviet citizens could freely travel to approved countries (Poland, Romania,
what have you).

Bull****. One needed an exit visa for travel to *any* country,
including Poland and Romania.

Fair enough - I'm pretty willing to believe that you have better info on
this than my second-hand recollections.

miguel
--
See the world from your web browser: http://travel.u.nu/

In article et,
Gregory Morrow wrote:

Soviet citizens could freely travel to approved countries (Poland,
Romania,
what have you).

A trip to Budapest or Warsaw or Sofia for the average Soviet
citizen was just about as difficult to arrange as a trip to Paris or London
or Tokyo, e.g. well - nigh impossible.

This is not quite true. A trip to Paris or London or Tokyo was indeed
nigh impossible for the average Soviet citizen, but some ******** like
Bulgaria was conceivable... once in a blue moon, if you are active
in your local Komsomol cell, and they have a spot on an organized
tour, and you ardently sucked the collective dicks of your local
Profkom/Partkom/Domkom/Bull****kom, and you are ideologically clean,
not Jewish, etc. etc.

Remember, at the time Soviet
citizens had to seek permission for even *internal* travel within the USSR.
If they were lucky, a Soviet citizen *might* get permission to travel to
Latvia or Estonia or Lithuania (which were referred to as "our abroad") for
a holiday.

Not since Stalin's times. Folks could travel pretty freely within
the USSR, except to ``strategically sensitive'' areas (something like
half the country, including huge chunks of the Urals, Vladivostok,
Sebastopol, anywhere near the capitalist border or coast like the
islands in the Baltic, etc.). One could not *move* without permission,
but anyone could go to Riga or Tallinn (back then known as Tallin
for a vacation.

Travel to East Berlin/East Germany was even more heavily circumscribed for
Soviet citizens. The reason? It was thought that western TV, radio, and
general western influences in the DDR could "contaminate" any Soviet
citizen who has less than ideologically stalwart.

But the friendships were so beautiful, and secret police made life so
much better. Uniting the people, you know. Didn't that Sjoerd fella
tell you about this already?

Soviets travelling abroad, even to "fraternal" countries, had to attend
special agit - prop classes to "prepare" for their journeys abroad. No
ideological slackers allowed!

Yeah, and half the group consisted of special minders who could later
report that Ivan was looking at tittie magazines in a Hungarian news
kiosk, and poor fellow would never ever be able to travel abroad again.

In article ,
mrtravel wrote:

Which is precisely why US regulations wrt travel to Cuba do not
prohibit *going* to a resort, or enjoying the sun, food and beach.
*Spending money* at a Cuban resort, however, is no different from buying
a used TV from a thief who is known to have stolen it.

How do you go to a resort without spending money. The resorts aren't free.

Simple. Go to a legitimately owned resort. Go to Virgin Islands or
Jamaica or Anguilla or Guadeloupe or wherever it is that folks go for
a vacation to the Caribbean.

How do you buy a TV without paying money to the thief who stole it?
Buy it from a legitimate store.

Vitaly Shmatikov wrote:

In article ,
mrtravel wrote:


Which is precisely why US regulations wrt travel to Cuba do not
prohibit *going* to a resort, or enjoying the sun, food and beach.
*Spending money* at a Cuban resort, however, is no different from buying
a used TV from a thief who is known to have stolen it.

How do you go to a resort without spending money. The resorts aren't free.


Simple. Go to a legitimately owned resort. Go to Virgin Islands or
Jamaica or Anguilla or Guadeloupe or wherever it is that folks go for
a vacation to the Caribbean.

Oh, I misunderstood. I didn't know you meant by avoiding Cuba you could
still go to a resort and enjoy the sun, food, and beach.

How do you buy a TV without paying money to the thief who stole it?
Buy it from a legitimate store.

What does this have to do with Cuba and the beach?
There are government owned resorts in many countries.

Wouldn't the correct analogy be not to buy a TV made in China?