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  #1171  
Old August 17th, 2006, 05:47 PM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Hatunen
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On 17 Aug 2006 07:54:52 -0700, "Tchiowa"
wrote:


Hatunen wrote:
On 16 Aug 2006 17:57:36 -0700, "Tchiowa"
wrote:


So because memebrs of the EU bureacracy sometimes use English it
means almost all Europeans speak English? Your logic escapes
mmost of us.

Interesting. I cited several examples. You separate them then respond
that *just one* of them doesn't prove anything. Try taking things as a
whole.


Oh, wow. You cited several examples. But you provided no
Gallup-type justification for extrapolating from those example to
an entire continent.


So now I have to conduct a continent wide poll for you?

It is the primary language of business
throughout the EU.

Not yet. It is the primary language in certain places, e.g., the
board of FIAT.

Try again. Look at the law for contracts in the EU.


What, exactly, does it say?


I told you to look. Go ahead.

English is the primary language of business in the EU for any business
that crossed national borders.


Ah. Changing your claim again. Now you add the qualification that
it is true for businesses that cross national boundaries. Do you
have an itemized list of all the European businesses that cross
national boundaries, denoting those that conduct business in
English and those that don't?


No. Do you? Or are you just grasping at an argument because you know
you're wrong?

It is the primary language for education throughout the EU.

Most student now have to study English in the schools, but it is
far from the "primary language for education throughout the EU".

It is *required* for lower level students to learn at a minimum level
and many University degrees require almost fluencyi.


That is NOT the same thing as "the primary language of
education."


Pardon me. I guess I should have said "higher education".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3143464.stm

"Italians place a very high importance on learning languages,
particularly English. Fifteen years ago it was quite difficult to find
an English speaker here but today it is relatively easy."

"Relatively easy"? Compared to what?

As compared to what it used to be like, maybe? Which has been my
experience in 2 decades travelling to Europe fairly regularly.


Try traveling into the hinterlands a little more.


Like where? Atyrau, Kazakhstan? Riga, Latvia? Oporto, Portugal?


Is Kazakhstan in Europe?

So, exactly what did you doin Riga and Oporto.

Or are you starting like a couple of other people I've seen posting
that unless you hang out with the poor and uneducated you can't
possibly understand the culture?


Why do you assume that was my meaning?

By the by, my realtives are hardly poor and uneducated (hardly
anyone in Finland is uneducaated) but many of them don't speak
English.

But I do know that hanging out with General Motors executives
isn't the best way to understand the culture of America.
Especially since they show little grasp of it themselves.

YOu're very
much like those Europeans who come to the USA, visit New York and
Los Angeles, and proceed to tell us what all Americans are like,
even those in Kansas and Texas and Oregon.


How about the Europeans that come to the USA over 100 times and spend
several years total in 50 cities in 1/3 of the states. Would that help?

That's pretty much what I've done in Europe.


So you say.

It's one thing to have several years experience, it's another to
have a week's experience a hundred or so times.

(As an example, I checked my Frequent Flyer data base. I've landed in
Paris 83 times. Yes, I got so tired of the place that the last 40 or so
I spent very little time there. Took the train to Amsterdam or Lisbon
or anywhere else I could find other than Paris.)



Well, your certainly seem to have a lot of expeerience with CDG.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
  #1172  
Old August 17th, 2006, 05:58 PM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Hatunen
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On 17 Aug 2006 08:00:38 -0700, "Tchiowa"
wrote:


Hatunen wrote:
On 16 Aug 2006 18:12:23 -0700, "Tchiowa"
wrote:


World War
One was not caused by hatred or bigotry, it was the result of the
Austro-Hungarian Empire deciding that the little incident at
Sarajevo was a good excuse to add Serbia to the Empire.

And considering the people Serbia as some kind of "lesser people"
didn't figure into that calculation?


I have no evidence of that; do you?


Yes. It's called "experience". I've spent many years of my adult life
living in war zones.


Wow. Awesome.

I learned what it takes to make war. First thing
is to de-personalize your enemy.


That happesn precisely because the hatred and bigotry is too low.
It is a result of the war, not the cause.

If you look at the soldiers on the
other side as men with wives and children and houses who watch football
and get drunk on weekends you have a hard time killing them. To make
war successfully you first have to take the view that your needs or
views are so far superior to theirs and that you and your people are
superior to them.

To start a war of conquest like
that you first must consider your target to be unworthy of protection
and independence.


Not necessarily. That's a wild leap of logic. Not all wars were
Hitlerian, and certainly the Great War was not.


See above.


What? The great War was oneof those wars you experienced?


The US was once a group of small political entities that didn't much
like each other.

That's certainly a bit overstated; can you document the claim
that the royal govenment of Virginia didn't much liek the royal
government of Norht Carolina?

1860. Bit of a struggle in the US.


So you calim that in 1860 Virginai didn't much like North
Carolina?


Nope. But they weren't fond of New York at all.


Quote: "The US was once a group of small political entities that
didn't much like each other." This says that they all disliked
all the others.

It's commonly said that prior to the Civil War we said "The United
States *are*" but after the war we said "The United States *is*"
(indicating a finally unified country).


It's commonly said, all right. But attemtps to document it have
demonstrated it to be untrue.


Whose attempts?


When you cited an EU law you rfused to tell me what it said oin
an apparent attempt to make me do my own homework; well, back to
you.




But the US unified (for better or for worse). Europe
was never able to unify because of the hatred and bigotry and can't
unify today for many of the same reasons.

Bigotry doesn't enter into it, and hatred is a bit strong; it's
more like "suspicious", and given the past history of various
attemts to achieve power over Europe perhaps rightfully so.

OK. Bigotry, hatred, power, greed *AND* suspicion.


And what would that suspicion be a result of?


Mostly unfounded suspicion based on a belief that they are somehow less
human than you are and their mere existence deprives you of something
you think you deserve so you are suspicious of their motives.


************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
  #1173  
Old August 17th, 2006, 06:06 PM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Hatunen
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On 17 Aug 2006 08:09:52 -0700, "Tchiowa"
wrote:


Dave Frightens Me wrote:
On 16 Aug 2006 17:10:14 -0700, "Tchiowa" wrote:


After all *what*????? An editorial from a biased source quoting a
defense attorney????


I am still waiting for you to demonstrate that bias.


Let me get this straight. You're waiting for me to document the fact
that the BBC has been caught deliberately falsifying evidence to try to
discredit Blair and Bush as to the conduct of the war?


You expect others to do the homewoerk, so why shouldn't we expect
you to?

(and no, merely trying to broadly discredit the BBC doesn't count)


I don't need to try. They did that to themselves.


Cite, please?

[...]

If you don't think we're at war with Islamic Fascists then you need to
wake up. The fact is that the politicians refuse to label them as
Islamic so they just say "Terrorists". But that doesn't alter the fact
that we are in a shooting war.


Among other things, you apparently have no idea of what "fascism"
actually is. The Islamic terrorists are not fascists. For the
most part, fascism is antithetical to Islam. Saddam Hussein was
close to be a fascist, but he decreed the state to be secular.


You've obviously made up your mind on this one, so there's not much
point in trying to get any sense out of, or into you. That brain of
yours is in lockdown denial mode.

Pots and kettles. You clearly don't understand any of the issues but
you're not going to let that get in the way of your prejudices.


My predjudice is getting these people on trial (IOW justice). Yours is
to avoid seeing that happen.


On trial for *what*? Most aren't accused of breaking US law. They are
being held as prisoners of war. Nothing "guilty" about that. And no
trials to hold.


They are indeed being held as prisoners of war. But that begs the
question: "Should they be held as prisoners of war?"

During WWII, did the UK put captured German soldiers on trial or did
they simply hold them until the end of the war then send them home?


That was a declared war and both sides wore uniforms. A captured
enemy out of uniform is not a prisoner of war; that's why
Washington had Major Andre hanged.



************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
  #1174  
Old August 17th, 2006, 06:10 PM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Hatunen
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Posts: 4,483
Default Draconian vacation policies for US slave workers

On 17 Aug 2006 08:14:09 -0700, "Tchiowa"
wrote:


Dave Frightens Me wrote:
On 16 Aug 2006 17:16:06 -0700, "Tchiowa" wrote:


The Euro's opinion of themselves?


No. You're insistence on putting all "Euro's" together illustrates a
flaw in your thinking.


You mean kind of like the way you (and others) have lumped Americans
together?

Which part do you disagree with? The fact that Europe is chopped up
into little political units because of a millenium of bigotry and war?


The use of the word 'bigotry' is just bizarre.


It wasn't bigotry that was at the root of many or most of the wars that
created the borders? Of course it was.


You're begging your own question again. You really don't get
this, do you?

The fact the European economy is lagging far, far behind the US? The
fact that unemployment in most of Europe is roughly double what it is
in the US?

Your denial or reality doesn't make these facts go away.


My denial or reality? What the hell are you trying to say? Maybe you
are on crack or yaa baa or something.


Ah, a typical juvenile response. Indicates you have no logical
argument. Thank you for the surrender.


For someone whose own use of logic is more than a bit flawed, you
sure are rough on others. Check the beam in your own eye first.


************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
  #1175  
Old August 17th, 2006, 06:16 PM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Hatunen
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Posts: 4,483
Default Draconian vacation policies for US slave workers

On 17 Aug 2006 08:03:20 -0700, "Tchiowa"
wrote:


Hatunen wrote:
On 16 Aug 2006 17:16:06 -0700, "Tchiowa"
wrote:


Oddly, so have I, plus many others reading this. Your view seems way
different to anyone elses here, suggesting you must be right, and
we're all wrong.

The Euro's opinion of themselves?

Which part do you disagree with? The fact that Europe is chopped up
into little political units because of a millenium of bigotry and war?
The fact the European economy is lagging far, far behind the US? The
fact that unemployment in most of Europe is roughly double what it is
in the US?


I see you like trick questions. When did you stop beating your
wife sort of thing.


No. Those are legitimate questions. They are the points I've been
making and you claim that I must be wrong because you and others
disagree. So which of the points are you disagreeing with?


Nonsense. You always beg your own question. You start with "all
wars are the result of bigotry and hatred" as your postulate, and
draw all your conclusions from those postulates, blithely
brushing aside attempts to challenge your postulates.

"Which part do you disagree with? The fact that Europe is chopped
up into little political units because of a millenium of bigotry
and war?"

You don't leave it open to the possibility that Eruope is chopped
up into little political units for other reasons (and some of
those political units are pretty damn big).


Then you disagree about the reason. Tell me about all the love and
acceptance that created the borders.


And you seem inordinately fond of the fallacy of the excluded
middle.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
  #1176  
Old August 17th, 2006, 07:11 PM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Frank F. Matthews
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Posts: 1,362
Default Draconian vacation policies for US slave workers



Hatunen wrote:

On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 09:43:06 +0100, The Reid
wrote:


Following up to Hatunen


So? What % of the annual budget of the average person goes to travel?
And Europeans do travel abroad more than Americans (just take a look at
how many Americans have a passport).

Europeans don't have as far to go to get abroad.


that of course doesn't make it untrue.




No, but it raises a seriopus question as to the valdity of the
satement " Europeans do travel abroad more than Americans"


A great many of
the foreign destinations for Americans don't require a passport
(so far, anyway).


what would be your guess on % of Americans who travel abroad and
who travel abroad beyond Mexico and Canada (a guess, I'm not
interested in a cites war). Are there a lot of countries US
doesn't need passports?



Define "abroad". And what are the figures supporting the
statement that more Europeans travel abroad than Americans."

As far as Americans are concerned, of course, Europeans are
already "abroad".

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *



Give up Dave. Of course Europeans travel abroad more. Pretty much
every significant trip is abroad there.

  #1177  
Old August 17th, 2006, 07:32 PM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Hatunen
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Default Draconian vacation policies for US slave workers

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:37:31 GMT, mrtravel
wrote:

Hatunen wrote:

It looks more to me like a subdued threat to the Maltese that
Randall is a US citizen so don't try any funny stuff. It was only
a couple of decades after the US went after the barbary Pirates.

Interesting that it's a printed form.


It's a passport. Passports back then didn't come in a little book.


Why is it a passport? How do you define passport?

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
  #1178  
Old August 17th, 2006, 08:41 PM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Dave Frightens Me
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Default Draconian vacation policies for US slave workers

On 17 Aug 2006 08:09:52 -0700, "Tchiowa" wrote:


Dave Frightens Me wrote:
On 16 Aug 2006 17:10:14 -0700, "Tchiowa" wrote:


After all *what*????? An editorial from a biased source quoting a
defense attorney????


I am still waiting for you to demonstrate that bias.


Let me get this straight. You're waiting for me to document the fact
that the BBC has been caught deliberately falsifying evidence to try to
discredit Blair and Bush as to the conduct of the war?


No, I want you to demonstrate the bias you claimed existed in the
article I posted. You have misread. Again.

(and no, merely trying to broadly discredit the BBC doesn't count)


I don't need to try. They did that to themselves.

you still conclude that all of them are guilty,

Learn to read. I never said anyone was "guilty" of anything.


You most certainly concluded that.


Out and out lie. Show me where I said that.


You said:
"As it always is with prisoners of war. The fact that they were
captured on a battleground is all that it takes."

Which wasn't correct, was it?

and deserve no legal recourse. Not so much as a shadow of a doubt.
None.

Do you understand anything about war? Prisoners captured during a war
may *NOT* be subjected to criminal trials and may be held until the end
of the war without "any legal recourse".


Right, this all comes down to the declaration of war on some phantom
enemy. I forgot. Apparently you take no issue with this, but are just
blinding trusting the US's word, no matter how flimsy it is.


That would be the phantoms that knocked down the Twin Towers and killed
3,000 people? The phantoms that bombed the Madrid subway? The phantoms
that bombed the UK transit system? The phantoms that were just stopped
from bombing 10 trans-Atlantic flights? *Those* phantoms?

If you don't think we're at war with Islamic Fascists then you need to
wake up. The fact is that the politicians refuse to label them as
Islamic so they just say "Terrorists". But that doesn't alter the fact
that we are in a shooting war.


A shooting war? What war are you talking about?

Terrorism is what happens when people are slapped about so much, that
they resort to extreme methods to get some semblance of justice. I
don't condone that, but the symptoms and the problems need to be
equally adressed. Simply feeding one side of it (like the USA and UK
have been doing) does nothing to stop it.

Why the **** am I wasting my keystrokes? You haven't even demonstrated
basic comprehension here.

You've obviously made up your mind on this one, so there's not much
point in trying to get any sense out of, or into you. That brain of
yours is in lockdown denial mode.

Pots and kettles. You clearly don't understand any of the issues but
you're not going to let that get in the way of your prejudices.


My predjudice is getting these people on trial (IOW justice). Yours is
to avoid seeing that happen.


On trial for *what*? Most aren't accused of breaking US law. They are
being held as prisoners of war. Nothing "guilty" about that. And no
trials to hold.


The war on terrorism is over, in case you hadn't noticed.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
  #1179  
Old August 17th, 2006, 08:47 PM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Dave Frightens Me
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Posts: 2,777
Default Draconian vacation policies for US slave workers

On 17 Aug 2006 08:14:09 -0700, "Tchiowa" wrote:


Dave Frightens Me wrote:
On 16 Aug 2006 17:16:06 -0700, "Tchiowa" wrote:


The Euro's opinion of themselves?


No. You're insistence on putting all "Euro's" together illustrates a
flaw in your thinking.


You mean kind of like the way you (and others) have lumped Americans
together?


You apparently consider them comparable, and thus demonstrate your
idiocy.

Which part do you disagree with? The fact that Europe is chopped up
into little political units because of a millenium of bigotry and war?


The use of the word 'bigotry' is just bizarre.


It wasn't bigotry that was at the root of many or most of the wars that
created the borders? Of course it was.


Bigotry had nothing to do with it. Of course I don't know what you are
specifically referring to, but you're pretty good at that.

The fact the European economy is lagging far, far behind the US? The
fact that unemployment in most of Europe is roughly double what it is
in the US?

Your denial or reality doesn't make these facts go away.


My denial or reality? What the hell are you trying to say? Maybe you
are on crack or yaa baa or something.


Ah, a typical juvenile response. Indicates you have no logical
argument. Thank you for the surrender.


You can plonk me if you really think you've won.

That is meaningless, as you included "real", which could mean anything.

No, Jordi included "real". I quoted him.

Try to keep up.

Getting a bit defensive are we? I never aimed that one at you.

Then you should be careful where you embed your reply. You embedded it
following *my* statement, not anyone else's.


And it wasn't an attack. You are jumping at shadows.


I never said it was an attack. Your tenuous grasp on reality is showing
again.


You did say "Try to keep up", which was a personal attack on me.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
  #1180  
Old August 17th, 2006, 09:42 PM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
mrtravel[_1_]
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Posts: 1,521
Default Draconian vacation policies for US slave workers

Hatunen wrote:
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:37:31 GMT, mrtravel
wrote:


Hatunen wrote:


It looks more to me like a subdued threat to the Maltese that
Randall is a US citizen so don't try any funny stuff. It was only
a couple of decades after the US went after the barbary Pirates.

Interesting that it's a printed form.


It's a passport. Passports back then didn't come in a little book.



Why is it a passport? How do you define passport?


Why not do a bit of research yourself?
Passports have existed for a very long time.


From: The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language:

An official government document that certifies one's identity and
citizenship and permits a citizen to travel abroad

[French passeport, from Old French : passer, to pass; see pass + port,
port; see port1.]

(This is logical. What languages is your passport written in?)




 




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