A few questions about laws in the US

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:43:29 -0700, Hatunen wrote:


On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 15:49:05 GMT, sechumlib
wrote:

Doug McDonald wrote:

Yes of course. That's what a stop sign is ... a way to slow down traffic.

Not true in NY, by statute. A stop sign is to STOP traffic at an
intersection. Theoretically, using it to slow traffic is illegal.

Which doesn't mean no one does it. My town of Niskayuna, for example,
routinely puts up stop signs in absurd places as a sop to local
residents who think traffic is going too fast by their precious houses
and children. They apparently don't believe in training their children
to use care in the street.

Not using care in the street is not supposed to be a capital
crime.

Stupidity has always been a capital offense. The law might side with
you if you step out into traffic, but that won't help you if you end up
crippled or dead.

wrote:
Hi,

Since my recent trip to the US, I have a few questions about laws.

[...]
I saw lots of signs saying "No Trespassing, no Loitering", such as on
the most popular cycle route in the San Fransisco Peninsula, I cannot
remember the name but it is around a reservoir and is just off the 280
near san bruno.

This is an unusual situation, you're talking about the San Andreas and
Sawyer Camp Trail, which runs through San Francisco Water District land
(hence the reservoir).
http://www.bahiker.com/southbayhikes/sawyercamp.html

The trail ( a paved bike path, actually) is fenced off, and you are not
allowed on the adjacent land on either side (so "no trespassing"). the
"no loitering" signs probably mean no sleeping on the benches or no
hanging around the pump stations or water tanks on the land.

Now I can guess what trespassing is, but what is
Loitering? This sign was next to benches, and I assumed the view was
what most people came for, so what is loitering? Is standing still
looking at the view counted? Or is it, as my brother suspected,
dependent on how much money you have and your ethnic origin.

Probably depends more on whether it looks as if you're trying to fool
around with the water supply. And it's probably used to stop high
school kids from gathering there in large groups to smoke cigarettes
and drink beer.

At a station I went to (Santa Cruz, Great American?) another
prohibition was added to the sign, pan handling. Now I have absolutely
no idea what this could be.

Another thing I could not quite get my head round is the 4 way stops.
Are you really supposed to stop every time even when there is nothing
coming?

Of course.

What about, as I found a few times, when the stop line is so
far back from the junction that you cannot see if it is clear from the
line. Are you supposed to stop at the line, then move forward and
look,

Yes.

or do you just have to stop at some point before the other road?
This is more relevant at a 2 way stop.

Thanks for any clarification you can give me.

wrote:
That's what a stop sign is ... a way to slow down traffic.


Actually I believe that federal traffic-sign guidelines say that stop
signs should NOT be installed just to slow down traffic. Our local
police chief talked about this recently when some residents wanted a
4-way stop sign installed to slow down traffic. He said that it would
be contrary to federal guidelines. If you need to slow down traffic,
the proper method is to post and enforce a lower speed limit.


In Spain they have a working solution. Traffic signals will stay at
gteen as long as traffic keeps within the speed limit. Exceed it, and
the light change to red. Drivers very soon get the nessage. Works well.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi,

Since my recent trip to the US, I have a few questions about laws.

On the highway, in Europe you have to stay in the "slow" lane, ie.
furthest from the central reservation, right in the US, unless you are
overtaking someone. In the US this is not the case. So do you just
overtake in whatever lane you can? Can you swop lanes as much as you
like to get through the traffic? How much room do you require to change
lanes? I was doing it with 2 car lengths space, and my brother who
lives there said I would get pulled if a cop saw me.

Since you were on 280 in California you may have seen the signs "Slower
traffic keep right". That means if you are slower than the people behind
you, move to the right. It is usually the convention that faster traffic
goes in the left lane. You only have to change lanes if you are not going
as fast as the car in front of you. Overtaking on the right is unexpected,
and vaguely illegal, which means you can fail your drivers test by not
knowing its illegal, but I don't know of anyone ever cited for that
infraction. Also driver's training will tell you that you should alway
leave one car length between you and the car in front of you for every 10mph
of speed you are going. So, if you were going 20mph changing lanes with 2
car lengths was fine. If you were going 60mph you probably would get a
ticket for wreckless driving if a cop saw you. I do know of people who got
tickets for that. I also suspect most of the rush hour accidents are caused
by people trying to shave the car length per 10 mph limit, which is why cops
actually watch for that one.

I saw lots of signs saying "No Trespassing, no Loitering", such as on
the most popular cycle route in the San Fransisco Peninsula, I cannot
remember the name but it is around a reservoir and is just off the 280
near san bruno. Now I can guess what trespassing is, but what is
Loitering? This sign was next to benches, and I assumed the view was
what most people came for, so what is loitering? Is standing still
looking at the view counted? Or is it, as my brother suspected,
dependent on how much money you have and your ethnic origin.

In general it is frowned upon to offer money to law enforcement officers in
the US. It may occasionally work, but it is more likely you will get thrown
in jail for bribery. I'm not sure if that is what your brother was implying
or not. Loitering would be folks that decided to camp out for the day, or
night, on the bench. If you roll out your sleeping bag and unpack your camp
stove you will likely get hauled in for loitering.


At a station I went to (Santa Cruz, Great American?) another
prohibition was added to the sign, pan handling. Now I have absolutely
no idea what this could be.

As mentioned before, pan handling is begging for money.

Another thing I could not quite get my head round is the 4 way stops.
Are you really supposed to stop every time even when there is nothing
coming?

This is one of those weird traffic laws. Though speed limits are often
considered suggestions, every stop sign everywhere means stop. I know of
folks who got tickets for rolling through stop signs on bikes. I know folks
who got tickets rolling through stop signs on deserted streets at 3am.

What about, as I found a few times, when the stop line is so
far back from the junction that you cannot see if it is clear from the
line. Are you supposed to stop at the line, then move forward and
look,..

Yep, that's exactly what you are supposed to do.

We are not very disciplined about driving in many regards. Certainly
one of them is voluntarily sorting ourselves by speed on multilane
highways. "Slower traffic keep right" is the law (and a scattering of
signs remind drivers of it) but enforcement is even rarer than
self-discipline.

In California, at least, overtaking on the right is explicitly allowed
when three or more lanes are moving in the same direction. (In heavy
traffic, e.g., at rush hour, it's pretty much inevitable, as the lanes
surge up and down in speed independently.)

Overtaking on the right under other circumstances is not as clearly
legal, but in my experience seldom enforced unless you are also driving
wildly or aggressively.



so what is loitering?

Idling about. It is an eternally controversial legal concept that
gives police broad discretion to make you (or your whole group) move
along if they don't like your being there or don't care for your looks,
social status, or behavior. See also "vagrancy."


pan handling. Now I have absolutely no idea what this could be.

Slang term for begging. I would imagine that the term comes from
holding out a cooking pan for passers-by to drop coins into. I've only
seen this literally being done a few times, other money receptacles
being easier to find.



Another thing I could not quite get my head round is the 4 way stops.
Are you really supposed to stop every time even when there is
nothing coming?

California's driver's handbook sounds typical on the subject:
"Eight-sided red STOP signs mean you must make a full stop whenever you
see a STOP sign. Stop before entering a crosswalk or at a white
"limit line" which is a wide white line painted on the street. If a
crosswalk or limit line is not painted on the street, stop at the
corner."

Some people have strong opinions about the US enthusiasm for stop signs
where a yield sign would seem safe enough and less of an impediment to
the flow of traffic, but so it is.

Some US cities have embraced the roundabout or traffic circle, but
often it is not engineered in ways that take advantage of its potential
efficiency (e.g., there are stop signs at all the streets that feed
into it), and you'll also find that most drivers here are not at all
accustomed to using it properly, so be alert and expect someone ahead
of you to brake hard at any time.

Are you supposed to stop at the line, then move forward and
look, or do you just have to stop at some point before the other road?

You have to stop at the line if there is one. Stopping again a few
feet further along and taking another look, if necessary for safety, is
your decision. This can also occur where someone has grown a huge bush
in their yard, or parked a large vehicle, or whatever, that obscures
your sight lines from the designated stopping place.


Thanks for any clarification you can give me.

These are my layman's understandings of how it works in most states
(especially ones that have adopted a uniform traffic code), but many of
our laws are notoriously variable from one state to another -- and
local jurisdictions often have oddities of their own to offer. At
least, that's how I behave, and I don't get tickets despite driving
quite a bit in a variety of states.

Cheers,
--Joe

Cathy Kearns wrote:

Since you were on 280 in California you may have seen the signs "Slower
traffic keep right". That means if you are slower than the people behind
you, move to the right. It is usually the convention that faster traffic
goes in the left lane. You only have to change lanes if you are not going
as fast as the car in front of you. Overtaking on the right is unexpected,
and vaguely illegal, which means you can fail your drivers test by not
knowing its illegal, but I don't know of anyone ever cited for that
infraction.

Not so in NY and OH. It's not illegal at all, and not really unexpected.

Also driver's training will tell you that you should alway
leave one car length between you and the car in front of you for every 10mph
of speed you are going. So, if you were going 20mph changing lanes with 2
car lengths was fine. If you were going 60mph you probably would get a
ticket for wreckless driving if a cop saw you.

But wreckless driving is just what I want!

On 16 Mar 2006 10:46:02 -0800 in rec.travel.usa-canada,
wrote:

Actually I believe that federal traffic-sign guidelines say that stop
signs should NOT be installed just to slow down traffic. Our local
police chief talked about this recently when some residents wanted a
4-way stop sign installed to slow down traffic. He said that it would
be contrary to federal guidelines. If you need to slow down traffic,
the proper method is to post and enforce a lower speed limit.

the police chief isn't a traffic engineer, so he doesn't know
squat, he just didn't want to have to deal with complaints about
people running a sign. the federal rules apply ONLY when federal
money is used for construction.

Stop signs aren't very effective for that purpose because 1) drivers
may stop at the sign but continue to drive as before on the rest of the
street, and 2) the stop sign disrupts the flow of traffic.

i have a stop sign in front of my house that was installed
because the neighborhood insisted on it --- we ganged up on the
city manager at a neighborhood meeting held after a speeding
driver hit a kid on a bike who as riding legally.

the street was part of a regular route from our high school to
downtown, and it was a drag strip when school let out and during
the lunch hour. when the stop sign was installed, the kids
started taking the 4-lane route (with a higher speed limit) to
downtown.

and stop signs don't disrupt the flow of traffic in residential
areas. if they do, then the traffic needs to go somewhere else,
which is what will happen if there are frequent stop signs.

On 16 Mar 2006 18:14:10 -0800 in rec.travel.usa-canada, "Ad
absurdum per aspera" wrote:

Some US cities have embraced the roundabout or traffic circle, but
often it is not engineered in ways that take advantage of its potential
efficiency (e.g., there are stop signs at all the streets that feed
into it), and you'll also find that most drivers here are not at all
accustomed to using it properly, so be alert and expect someone ahead
of you to brake hard at any time.

our first roundabout was installed last summer, with weeks of
whining from ignorami in the letters to the editor of our local
paper. even after it's been in operation for 5 months, we still
get drivers who apparently do not understand a yield sign and
stop when they enter the circle every damn time.

after a lot of complaints, the cops finally stationed a car there
for most of a week, to follow and pull over the folks who kept
stopping when the circle was empty or when there was plenty of
time and room for cars approaching at the 25 mph entry limit to
enter the circle safely. it appears to be better now.

OTOH, the husband of one of my co-workers simply will NOT drive
through that intersection, at the far end of the only bridge to
an island that is mostly suburban, ski area, or wilderness. go
figure.

wrote:
So do you just overtake in whatever lane you can?

On multi-lane highways, the lane closest to the center line (the left
lane) is supposed to be used for passing. You are not supposed to pass
on the right, but people do it sometimes anyway.


On multi-lane highways right-passing is permitted in California and British
Columbia (and I suspect lots of other places in NA)

California from the DMV Driver's Handbook:

"Pass traffic on the left. You may pass on the right only when:

- An open highway is clearly marked for two or more lanes of travel in your
direction. "

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs22thru25.htm


In British Columbia:

"Passing on the right -- Pass only on a roadway that has two or more lanes
going in the same direction .."

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:6Zsp7-wJGgYJ:www.icbc.com/licensing/RoadSense%2520for%2520Riders%2520$

Wonder what other states/provinces would have turned-up had I continued
searching? Nex

Pete wrote:
There are three kinds of crappy drivers:


Oops, make that four categories. Add the selfish jerks (and jerkettes)
who talk on their cellphones,

This is now illegal in the UK, except for properly fitted hands-free
carphones.