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Trip Report - Singapore / Malaysia



 
 
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  #11  
Old September 7th, 2004, 07:28 PM
Gregory Morrow
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mag3 wrote:

Islam Yes, one does see the Islamic orientation of this country but it's

not "in your face" at all.
in There is very little Arabic script as the national language is "Bahasa

Malaysia" (which uses
Malays. Romanized alphabet) and not Arabic.



Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic country
should be a red flag to you. What is the legal status of the women you saw,
their station in life? Did you see any Jews? Do gays have a place in
Malaysian society? Places like Dubai and Kuala Lumpur might put on a very
tempting face but anyone who values human rights surely would not choose to
live there permanently, especially if you are, say, a woman or Jewish or
homosexual. Frankly I would not dig being treated like chattel or a pariah
or being jailed or worse for my sexual orientation.

It's like visiting Berlin during the 1936 Olympics and saying "Wow! These
Germans have got a good thing going! They are friendly and nice and so
well - organised...Berlin is really beautiful and modern and we really did
not see any of that overt anti - semitism or anything political like
that..must just be rumours!.".


Some references for you:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-paci...es/1304569.stm

"Malaysia has some of the toughest censorship laws in the world. The
authorities exert substantial control over the media and restrictions may be
imposed in the name of national security.

The government is keen to insulate the largely-Muslim population from what
it considers harmful foreign influences on TV. News is subject to
censorship, entertainment shows and music videos regularly fall foul of the
censors, and scenes featuring swearing and kissing are routinely removed
from TV programmes and films.

[...]

Newspapers must renew their publication licences annually, and the home
minister can suspend or revoke publishing permits".


http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/01/21/malays6972.htm

"When Abdullah Badawi took over from Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad in
October 2003, Malaysia's first change in leadership in more than two
decades, he sounded themes of democracy, good governance, and human rights
in his inauguration speech. The new administration, however, has yet to take
significant steps toward dismantling Malaysia's legal framework of
repression. Prominent human rights concerns in Malaysia include arbitrary
detention of alleged militants under the Internal Security Act (ISA); severe
restrictions on media freedom; constraints on judicial independence; and
abuses against refugees and migrants.

Restrictions on Media Freedom

Malaysia's media is largely devoid of serious criticism of the government.
Malaysians are fed a daily dose of positive news about their government, and
senior United Malays National Organisation (UMNO) politicians are
unfailingly featured in the day's headlines, always shown in a positive
light. The government maintains its control through a network of laws
curbing free expression, as well as through direct day-to-day monitoring and
control of the media. Opposition politicians and local activists have
trouble getting their message out, and strong criticism of government policy
almost never makes its way onto the pages of Malaysia's daily newspapers.
Television and radio are even more strictly controlled.

Even internet-based news sites, able to operate more freely due to
Malaysia's efforts to cast itself as a global center of cyber activity, risk
censure or even closure if they step too far out of line. In January 2003,
the offices of news website Malaysiakini were raided, and a number of
computer processors seized. Although most of the equipment was eventually
returned, Malaysiakini still operates under the threat of prosecution; the
government has yet to clear it of all charges. The ability of independent
media outlets like Malaysiakini to operate without restrictions in the
run-up to 2004 elections, which must be called before November, will be an
important barometer of press freedom."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3196234.stm

"Malaysia defends speech on Jews

Dr Mahathir is due to step down at the end of October

Malaysia has sought to play down a row over remarks by its prime minister
about Jews "ruling the world".
Mahathir Mohamad's opening speech at a summit of Muslim leaders in the
Malaysian city of Putrajaya on Thursday has been condemned around the world.

But the speech, which received a standing ovation, has been endorsed by
other Muslim leaders.

Malaysian Foreign Minister Syed Hamid Albar said the premier's remarks about
Jews had been taken out of context.


Global debate: Islam and the West

It was a "speech addressed to Muslims asking them to work hard and affirm
their personality", said the minister, adding: "I'm sorry that they have
misunderstood the whole thing".

Mr Albar said the main point of the speech had been to persuade Muslims
against using violence to pursue their aims.

But the speech was criticised by Australian Foreign Minister Alexander
Downer, as well as the governments of the United States, Germany and Italy,
which holds the presidency of the European Union.

Anti-Nazi campaigners described Mr Mahathir's words as "an absolute
invitation for more hate crimes and terrorism against Jews".

The Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC), which brings together 57
national leaders representing more than a billion Muslims worldwide, has
been meeting for the first time since the 11 September attacks on America,
and the US-led war on terrorism is dominating the agenda.

'Fight them'

In his speech, Dr Mahathir called on Muslims to use brains as well as brawn
to fight Jews who, he said, "rule the world by proxy".

The OIC brings together 57 nations home to one billion Muslims

He told the leaders of the Islamic world that 1.3 billion Muslims could not
be "defeated by a few million Jews".

"This tiny [Jewish] community has become a world power. We cannot fight them
through brawn alone. We must use our brains as well," he said.

Jews, said the Malaysian prime minister, had "invented socialism, communism,
human rights and democracy" to avoid persecution and gain control of the
most powerful countries.

He added that "the Jews" were "beginning to make mistakes" and Muslims could
have "windows of opportunity... in the future". "

[...]


http://www.time.com/time/asia/featur...alay.gay2.html

'Homosexuality is a Crime Worse Than Murder'
Interview with Malaysia's morality police
By MAGESWARY RAMAKRISHNAN

September 26, 2000
Web posted at 12:40 p.m. Hong Kong time, 12:40 a.m. EDT

Abdul Kadir Che Kob describes homosexuals as "shameless people" and
homosexuality as a "sin worse than murder." Abdul Kadir is head of education
and research at Malaysia's Islamic Affairs Department, which operates as the
morality police with 50 enforcement officers across the country. These
officers are empowered to arrest Muslims -- including unmarried couples,
homosexuals, transvestites and transsexuals -- suspected of breaking Islamic
laws. Last year, 111 men were arrested in Kuala Lumpur for "attempting to
commit homosexual acts." Abdul Kadir spoke recently to TIME contributor
Mageswary Ramakrishnan. Excerpts:
TIME: How does Islam perceive homosexuality?
Abdul Kadir: Homosexuality is forbidden in Islam. It is a crime worse than
murder.

TIME: What do you think of homosexuals?
Abdul Kadir: They are shameless people.

TIME: Can it be wrong for two people to be in love?
Abdul Kadir: Love? How can men have sex with men? God did not make them this
way. This is all Western influence -- and the gay people expect us to be
open- minded?

TIME: Your department made 111 arrests in Kuala Lumpur last year compared
with 165 in 1998 and 166 in 1997. Is this an indication that the number of
gays is decreasing?
Abdul Kadir: No, I don't think so. Perhaps they have become smarter in
avoiding us. Maybe the department received fewer complaints. We only act
based on complaints. It is difficult to act otherwise. How would we know
what is happening? We don't know what is happening behind closed doors.

TIME: What do you do when you receive a tip-off?
Abdul Kadir: Usually people give us precise information like where these men
are. We then go to the place, say, a hotel room. We knock and force them to
open the door, but they are usually fully clothed by then. We still charge
them for attempting to commit homosexual acts.

TIME: What about those who say that people have a right to choose who they
want to be with?
Abdul Kadir: What right are you talking about? This is a sin, end of story.

TIME: What about gay women?
Abdul Kadir: We have never arrested lesbian women. There are no complaints,
maybe because it is difficult to gauge who is a lesbian.

TIME: What happens when gay men are arrested?
Abdul Kadir: We charge them in court, but before that we put them through
what we call Islamic counseling sessions. They recite the Koran everyday and
we will tell them they have committed a grave sin.

TIME: Do these people change?
Abdul Kadir: It is difficult to make them change; it has to come from
within. I know there is very little effect. Out of 100 people, only one will
change.

TIME: If your approach is not working, then why not abandon it?
Abdul Kadir: No, we have to tell these people they are doing something very
wrong in the eyes of Allah [God]. It is a major sin. Gay people think being
gay is a fashion.

TIME: Malaysia has three major ethnic groups -- Malays, Chinese and Indians.
Is homosexuality more prevalent in some groups than others?
Abdul Kadir: It is prevalent among the Malays, I have to admit.

TIME: If homosexuality is just a fashion, why do you think so many Malay men
are willing to risk arrest by your department?
Abdul Kadir: Like I said, this is a Western influence. They also operate
very smoothly. Even if we know they are gay, we cannot arrest them unless we
receive information about them."


http://www.asiasource.org/asip/wao.cfm#malaysia

[...]

"I would now like to move on to to address the following inequalities and
discrimination that Malaysian women still face:

Citizenship

Malaysian women who are married to non-Malaysian men and give birth to
children outside of Malaysia cannot confer citizenship to their children,
these children are considered foreigners, into Malaysia. When a child is
born outside Malaysia, the child is not conferred citizenship by operation
of the law unless the father is a Malaysian citizen.5 A child whose mother
is a Malaysian citizen does not share the same privilege. The father must be
a Malaysian citizen in order for the child to be conferred citizenship in
Malaysia.

Immigration

Under Section 15 (1) the Federal Constitution foreign men who marry
Malaysian women cannot receive permanent residence ( P) status unlike
foreign women married to Malaysian men., although some reprieve has been
given that foreign husbands who are professionals wall be given work
permits, it still amounts to unequal opportunities for Malaysian women in
comparison to Malaysian men.

Violence Against Women

In 2000 alone, there were 1217 reported cases of rape and 3,468 cases of
domestic violence. Everyday women and girls are subjected physical, sexual
and psychological abuse, that cut across race and class. Laws relating to
rape, domestic violence and sexual harassment are still inadequate.

Rights of Muslim Women

Muslim women continue to face hardships in cases of divorce, polygamy,
custody, maintenance, and division of matrimonial property. There are
shortcomings in Syariah law and its implementation that contributes to the
abuse and injustice faced by Muslim women. For instance, while a man can
easily get divorce, the court is reluctant to grant a divorce without the
agreement of her husband.

These concrete examples of unequal treatment are not a mere flaw of the law
but it reflects a deeper value system by society. Deeply entrenched
attitudes and practices perpetuate inequality and discrimination against
women".

/

--
Best
Greg


  #12  
Old September 7th, 2004, 07:53 PM
Miguel Cruz
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Gregory Morrow wrote:
Malaysian women who are married to non-Malaysian men and give birth to
children outside of Malaysia cannot confer citizenship to their children,
these children are considered foreigners, into Malaysia. When a child is
born outside Malaysia, the child is not conferred citizenship by operation
of the law unless the father is a Malaysian citizen.5 A child whose mother
is a Malaysian citizen does not share the same privilege. The father must be
a Malaysian citizen in order for the child to be conferred citizenship in
Malaysia.


It worked this way in the Netherlands up until a few years ago.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos from 30 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu
  #13  
Old September 7th, 2004, 07:53 PM
Miguel Cruz
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Gregory Morrow wrote:
Malaysian women who are married to non-Malaysian men and give birth to
children outside of Malaysia cannot confer citizenship to their children,
these children are considered foreigners, into Malaysia. When a child is
born outside Malaysia, the child is not conferred citizenship by operation
of the law unless the father is a Malaysian citizen.5 A child whose mother
is a Malaysian citizen does not share the same privilege. The father must be
a Malaysian citizen in order for the child to be conferred citizenship in
Malaysia.


It worked this way in the Netherlands up until a few years ago.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos from 30 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu
  #14  
Old September 7th, 2004, 08:34 PM
Pan
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On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 18:28:34 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote:


mag3 wrote:

Islam Yes, one does see the Islamic orientation of this country but it's

not "in your face" at all.
in There is very little Arabic script as the national language is "Bahasa

Malaysia" (which uses
Malays. Romanized alphabet) and not Arabic.



Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic country
should be a red flag to you.


I disagree. Have you ever been there? Wonderful people.

What is the legal status of the women you saw,
their station in life?


Malay women, especially in East Coast states ruled now or until
recently by PAS, have much higher status than they did in the 1970s.
Lots of them own their own businesses. Malaysia is not Saudi Arabia.
Malay women are frequently seen driving cars and motorcycles by
themselves and sell to both men and women.

Did you see any Jews?


There never was a big local Jewish community. There used to be one
congregation in Penang, and already in the 70s, there were too few of
them to have services except when supplemented by Jewish tourists and
businessmen for the High Holy Days. It's true that the word "Jew" has
often been used as an insult in Malaysian political discourse, but my
impression is that the departure of Malaysian Jews had much more to do
with economics than anything else. I don't believe the very small
Jewish community was persecuted.

If my experience last summer is anything to judge by, Jewish tourists
are welcome in Malaysia, but you probably wouldn't recognize them
because they wouldn't be Orthodox Jews wearing kipot. Plenty of halal
but no certified kosher food is to be found in Malaysia.

Do gays have a place in
Malaysian society?


Yes, if they're quiet about it. That was true in various Western
countries a few decades ago.

Places like Dubai and Kuala Lumpur might put on a very
tempting face but anyone who values human rights surely would not choose to
live there permanently, especially if you are, say, a woman or Jewish or
homosexual.


Living there permanently - is that an issue in this thread? I sure as
heck wouldn't want to live in Beijing permanently but had a wonderful
time visiting there for 9 days this August.

Frankly I would not dig being treated like chattel or a pariah
or being jailed or worse for my sexual orientation.


Women are _NOT_ chattel in Malaysia and do have rights! But yes, if
you're gay, you probably don't want to move to Malaysia.

It's like visiting Berlin during the 1936 Olympics and saying "Wow! These
Germans have got a good thing going! They are friendly and nice and so
well - organised...Berlin is really beautiful and modern and we really did
not see any of that overt anti - semitism or anything political like
that..must just be rumours!.".

[snip]

Malaysia in 2004 is very far from Nazi Germany!

Pak Lah, the new prime minister, has exercised a calming influence on
the country and has begun making changes, though slowly and with an
eye to maintain calm. The most visible change is the recent release
from jail of former deputy prime minister, Anwar Ibrahim.

Many of the articles you posted are outdated. Dr. Mahathir is no
longer PM, and Pak Lah has distanced himself from the former PM's most
controversial remarks. If you want more information, you could post to
soc.culture.malaysia and ask for comments on how much or how little
the articles you posted are an accurate representation of today's
Malaysia. You'll get a variety of responses.

Michael

If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted.
  #15  
Old September 7th, 2004, 08:40 PM
EAC
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"flyinyereye" wrote in message ...
I once saw a woman in KL in full black burka,
with a pink helium balloon on a string, whilst
her husband was casually dressed in jeans, t-shirt and
thongs (flip flops). The scene just seemed so wrong.


Everyone are free to dressed as they please.

The best dress of course as the Qur'an said is the one that suit you.
  #16  
Old September 7th, 2004, 08:40 PM
EAC
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"flyinyereye" wrote in message ...
I once saw a woman in KL in full black burka,
with a pink helium balloon on a string, whilst
her husband was casually dressed in jeans, t-shirt and
thongs (flip flops). The scene just seemed so wrong.


Everyone are free to dressed as they please.

The best dress of course as the Qur'an said is the one that suit you.
  #17  
Old September 7th, 2004, 08:40 PM
EAC
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mag3 wrote in message . ..
If you want to go up to the deck (ie. the bridge between the two towers,
which is as far as you can go), you have to be on line very early
in the morning (8AM or earlier)
as there are only 600 tickets given out free each day.


As I remember, they give exactly 1000 tickets per opening day (the day
the skydeck is open to the public). Though they might have reduced it
down to 600 tickets per opening day. I don't know, I haven't checked
out Petronas website lately.

It should be noted that the observatory deck of Menara Kuala Lumpur
offer a much higher view of Kuala Lumpur than the Sky Bridge of the
Petronas Twin Towers. While going up in Menara Kuala Lumpur do have a
fee, I don't think that they limit the amount of tickets per day.
Besides, Menara Kuala Lumpur have a rotating restoraunt where you can
have a view of the city while you eat.

The people were wonderful. I felt absolutely safe
and did not feel at all uneasy as an American.


I guess all of those negative news and travel warnings were wrong,
were they?

Oh well... Those things (news and travel warnings) are only used to
terrorize people anyway, and not to for the benefit of the people.

Islam Yes, one does see the Islamic orientation
of this country but it's not "in your face" at all.


Hmmm... See below on Singapore, Kuala Lumpur actually isn't quite
Qur'anic at all.

S'Pore A somewhat similar experience as with KL,
but clearly much less of an Islamic influence.


Actually, Singapore is actually more Qur'anic than Kuala Lumpur. Why?
Just read the Qur'an, you will understand.

Lee Kuan Yew sure run a pretty much tight operation, eventhough that
he's a 'senior' prime minister.

Though he currently losing power ever since his former boss Suharto
was asked to come down and his fellow colleague Mahathir recently
stepped down from power.

MRT (the Metro) makes it easy to get around.
It now extends all the way to Changi Airport and


In the past, the M.R.T. train used to go directly to Changi Airport.

But now each passenger who want to go to Changi Airport have to stop
at the Tanah Merah interchange station and then change train to the
shuttle M.R.T. train to Changi Airport.

This change is probably due the fact that in the past it take a long
time to wait for a train that goes directly to Changi Airport, unless
the train you're riding is the direct train to Changi Airport. I think
that I once have to wait around 10 minutes, with the new shuttle
system, they probably cut down on the waiting time quite sharp.

all the automated announcements are in English so it's easy for Americans.


Er... United States of Americans aren't the only English speaking
people in the world.

The national language of Singapore is Melayu, but English is the most
widely used language in Singapore.

There are four major official languages in Singapore. Melayu, English,
Mandarin, and Hindi. You can feel that by reading all of those warning
signs on the M.R.T. system, since that they are usually written in ALL
FOUR languages.

You can get a fare card
that's refillable and good for several years (mine's good until 2011).


EZ-Link card. The same type of card used in Japan (SuiCA) and Hong
Kong (Octopus), and probably also Malaysia (Touch'N'Go) and London
(Oyster) though it isn't said if they are FeliCA or not.

I would recommend a taxi if you have a lot of luggage
(S$15.00 or so - $9.00 US - to downtown Singapore).


And in group, because once you reached a certain amount of people,
using the M.R.T. is no longer more economic.

Regards,
Arnold.




(Miguel Cruz) wrote in message ...
I still don't completely understand the alcohol thing. Far as I can tell, I
can walk into 7-Eleven and buy a beer any time I want (is there a cutoff
time here? I haven't run into it yet but I really don't know); far more
easily than in the USA where I'd have to deal with ID checks and complicated
blue laws.


Because they know a kid when they see one, and also I think that the
age of being adult is lower than the U.S.A. . I think that you have to
be a 21 years old to get a full adult U.S.A. driver license?

To see on how old you have to be to get a full adult Malaysian driver
license, see below:

http://www.gov.my/MyGov/CitizenSpace...iving+License/

A 14 years old probably could haven't passed on as an adult (a.k.a.
16~17 years old) and probably would be told to scram immediately if he
insist of being an adult.

But of course, it's hard to tell if a person is either 18 years old,
21 years old, 25 years old, and so on.

The clerk in the Malaysian 7-Eleven don't need to see a driver license
to see if they can sell alcohol to the customers, because they already
know a minor when they see one. On the other hand, the clerk in an
U.S.A. 7-Eleven need to see a driver license to see if they can sell
alcohol to the customers, since they don't know if their customer is
under the age limit or not.

On the other hand there are a few "dry" states in Malaysia where
7-Eleven wouldn't sell beer at all.


Either this places don't have plenty supply of beer, or... things
might have been quite chaotic if these places gotten too much beer.

I have heard that they are not supposed to sell alcohol to Muslims but I
sure haven't seen anyone get turned away no matter how Malay they looked.
I am probably missing the subtleties of that rule (or it may not exist).


Well... To use the term 'muslim' is kinda incorrect, since the Qur'an
defined muslim as someone who is peaceful, which also include atheist.

One might use the term 'mu'min', but even then that isn't incorrect
either, since the Qur'an define a mu'min as someone who believe in
monotheisme / God, even a Hinduist is a mu'min (the core of Hindu is
monotheistic actually).

It might be better to said people who goes everything by the Qur'an,
but even then that isn't correct, because the Qur'an NEVER forbid
alcohol!

So the 'no-alcohol for muslims' in Malaysia thing it's just a made up
law to made people in conflict (either with themself or with others).
Fortunately, most people usually regard this kind of law as if it
didn't exist.


As for on how Melayu a person look.

The no drinking alcohol laws are for Malaysians with the identity of
'muslim', Indonesian Melayus (in any kind of way) who are quite many
in Malaysia (and also Singapore, especially Singapore) on the other
hand is off the hook.

The same goes for gambling in the Highlands. Malaysian with the
identity of 'muslim' is forbidden to enter casinos. The rest? Feel
free to come in.

Come on, where do you think most of the local tourists and expatriats
came from?

miguel




Alfred Molon wrote in message m...
To be a bit more accurate, even chicken meat can be both halal and non-
halal. It's halal if you pray before killing the chicken, non-halal if
you don't. At the Chinese food stalls you get usually non-halal chicken.


Well... To find out what is halal and what is not halal, one can read
the Qur'an to find out (Surat Al-Baqarah would be a good start). The
rest of the stuff that are halal but are said not halal are just made
out to defame and make it hard for people who believed in God.
  #18  
Old September 7th, 2004, 08:55 PM
Alfred Molon
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flyinyereye wrote:

I once saw a woman in KL in full black burka, with a pink helium balloon on
a string, whilst her husband was casually dressed in jeans, t-shirt and
thongs (flip flops). The scene just seemed so wrong.


I think these women choose freely to dress like that - nobody is forcing
them.
--

Alfred Molon

http://www.molon.de/Galleries.htm - Photos from Myanmar, Brunei,
Malaysia, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Nepal, Egypt, Austria, Budapest and
Portugal
  #19  
Old September 7th, 2004, 09:12 PM
Alfred Molon
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Gregory Morrow wrote:

Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic country
should be a red flag to you. What is the legal status of the women you saw,
their station in life?


Excellent - women are well integrated in society and most of them have a
job.

Did you see any Jews?


There are no Jews in Malaysia. Jews never migrated there (in any case
not in significant numbers).

Do gays have a place in Malaysian society?


No. Is this a problem for you ?

Places like Dubai and Kuala Lumpur might put on a very
tempting face but anyone who values human rights surely would not choose to
live there permanently, especially if you are, say, a woman or Jewish or
homosexual. Frankly I would not dig being treated like chattel or a pariah
or being jailed or worse for my sexual orientation.

It's like visiting Berlin during the 1936 Olympics and saying "Wow! These
Germans have got a good thing going! They are friendly and nice and so
well - organised...Berlin is really beautiful and modern and we really did
not see any of that overt anti - semitism or anything political like
that..must just be rumours!.".


Oh my god - have you ever been to Malaysia ?

"When Abdullah Badawi took over from Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad in
October 2003, Malaysia's first change in leadership in more than two
decades, he sounded themes of democracy, good governance, and human rights
in his inauguration speech. The new administration, however, has yet to take
significant steps toward dismantling Malaysia's legal framework of
repression. Prominent human rights concerns in Malaysia include arbitrary
detention of alleged militants under the Internal Security Act (ISA); severe
restrictions on media freedom; constraints on judicial independence; and
abuses against refugees and migrants.


Actually Badawi just freed Anwar.

snip

Malaysian women who are married to non-Malaysian men and give birth to
children outside of Malaysia cannot confer citizenship to their children,
these children are considered foreigners, into Malaysia. When a child is
born outside Malaysia, the child is not conferred citizenship by operation
of the law unless the father is a Malaysian citizen.5 A child whose mother
is a Malaysian citizen does not share the same privilege. The father must be
a Malaysian citizen in order for the child to be conferred citizenship in
Malaysia.


I know. I'm the father of a beautiful four months old baby and my wife
is Malaysian. Our daughter was born here in Germany and won't get a
Malaysian passport. So what ? We'll survive ;-)
--

Alfred Molon

http://www.molon.de/Galleries.htm - Photos from Myanmar, Brunei,
Malaysia, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Nepal, Egypt, Austria, Budapest and
Portugal
  #20  
Old September 7th, 2004, 10:23 PM
Gregory Morrow
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Alfred Molon wrote:

flyinyereye wrote:

I once saw a woman in KL in full black burka, with a pink helium balloon

on
a string, whilst her husband was casually dressed in jeans, t-shirt and
thongs (flip flops). The scene just seemed so wrong.


I think these women choose freely to dress like that - nobody is forcing
them.



Nonsense. They are forced by their families and husbands and societal laws
to dress like that. If they don't they'll be shunned - or *worse*, e.g.
stonings and even death.

--
Best
Greg



 




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