use only return part of ticket

Clark W. Griswold, Jr. wrote:
Craig Welch wrote:

I can't see that charge sticking, once you had taken up the matter
with your bank.

Why not? You agreed to the terms of the ticket when you purchased it. One of
those terms said that you agreed not to try to avoid the restrictions of the
ticket type and that if you did, the airline had the right to bill you for the
difference.

Sorry - the CC company has no basis for reversing the charge.

That is absolutely correct!

Once the airlines stated the Rules, you either abide by them OR violate
them AT YOUR OWN RISK of the consequences.

For travellers, some may violate the Rules out of ignorance (which is
not a valid excuse in law). But travel agents and travel agencies
are the ones responsible for the penalty fare, if they are the ones
doing the booking.

They should have KNOWN better.

-- Bob.

Craig Welch wrote:
On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 07:55:27 -0600, "Clark W. Griswold, Jr."
wrote:

Craig Welch wrote:

I can't see that charge sticking, once you had taken up the matter
with your bank.

Why not? You agreed to the terms of the ticket when you purchased it. One of
those terms said that you agreed not to try to avoid the restrictions of the
ticket type and that if you did, the airline had the right to bill you for the
difference.

Nope. No ticket I've ever bought has had a term where I agreed 'not
to try to avoid ...' anything.

Ignorance of the law, or the content of the fineprints in a contractual
transaction (as in the purchase of your airline ticket) is no excuse
for the violation of what you didn't know you violated.

-- Bob.

Craig Welch wrote:
On 3 Oct 2005 20:05:31 -0700, "Reef Fish"
wrote:

I can't see that charge sticking, once you had taken up the matter
with your bank.

Why not? You agreed to the terms of the ticket when you purchased it. One of
those terms said that you agreed not to try to avoid the restrictions of the
ticket type and that if you did, the airline had the right to bill you for the
difference.

Nope. No ticket I've ever bought has had a term where I agreed 'not
to try to avoid ...' anything.

Ignorance of the law, or the content of the fineprints in a contractual
transaction (as in the purchase of your airline ticket) is no excuse
for the violation of what you didn't know you violated.

Quite. But irrelevant.

Irrelevant ONLY to the uninformed.


I just read through the *entire* terms of the last airline ticket I
purchased.

Really? From which source, of which airline?

It doesn't take a genius to realize that the pages and pages of Rules
and regulations on airline webpages alone are not given to you or are
printed at the back of your ticket.

And those webpages do not contain all the rules and conditions they
send to travel agencies who handle the purchase of a large number of
tickets.


As with any other, nothing there about me agreeing 'not to try to
avoid ...' anything.

Don't be so literal minded. When an airlines choose to exercise its
RULE (supposedly known to all travel agencies) about throwing away
either the front end of the back end of roundtrip tickets, YOUR
ignorance about said rules that are implicit in your contractual
agreement in purchasing the ticket, will leave you very little leg
to stand on.

-- Bob.

On 3 Oct 2005 21:13:38 -0700, "Reef Fish"
wrote:


Craig Welch wrote:
On 3 Oct 2005 20:05:31 -0700, "Reef Fish"
wrote:

I can't see that charge sticking, once you had taken up the matter
with your bank.

Why not? You agreed to the terms of the ticket when you purchased it. One of
those terms said that you agreed not to try to avoid the restrictions of the
ticket type and that if you did, the airline had the right to bill you for the
difference.

Nope. No ticket I've ever bought has had a term where I agreed 'not
to try to avoid ...' anything.

Ignorance of the law, or the content of the fineprints in a contractual
transaction (as in the purchase of your airline ticket) is no excuse
for the violation of what you didn't know you violated.

Quite. But irrelevant.

Irrelevant ONLY to the uninformed.


I just read through the *entire* terms of the last airline ticket I
purchased.

Really? From which source, of which airline?

It doesn't take a genius to realize that the pages and pages of Rules
and regulations on airline webpages alone are not given to you or are
printed at the back of your ticket.

And those webpages do not contain all the rules and conditions they
send to travel agencies who handle the purchase of a large number of
tickets.


As with any other, nothing there about me agreeing 'not to try to
avoid ...' anything.

Don't be so literal minded. When an airlines choose to exercise its
RULE (supposedly known to all travel agencies) about throwing away
either the front end of the back end of roundtrip tickets, YOUR
ignorance about said rules that are implicit in your contractual
agreement in purchasing the ticket, will leave you very little leg
to stand on.

-- Bob.

I believe that Craig is one of my mob. You may find your
laws and ours differ somewhat, particularly when it comes to
making customers aware of their responsibilities under a
contract. In most cases here for normal consumers at the
small claims (under $5000) level, the provider of the
service has a responsibility to make the customer aware of
all significant implications if they intend to enforce them.

Obscure clauses in fine or faint print or on deeply embedded
web-pages would be thrown out of court unless the provider
could show that they specifically made the customer aware of
them. I'm not a lawyer, that's just opinion from reading the
local papers here.

Maybe you should get your one-way/round-trip bucket shop
tickets from Qantas?

Cheers, Alan, Australia

Alan S wrote:
On 3 Oct 2005 21:13:38 -0700, "Reef Fish"
wrote:


Craig Welch wrote:
On 3 Oct 2005 20:05:31 -0700, "Reef Fish"
wrote:

I can't see that charge sticking, once you had taken up the matter
with your bank.

Why not? You agreed to the terms of the ticket when you purchased it. One of
those terms said that you agreed not to try to avoid the restrictions of the
ticket type and that if you did, the airline had the right to bill you for the
difference.

Nope. No ticket I've ever bought has had a term where I agreed 'not
to try to avoid ...' anything.

Ignorance of the law, or the content of the fineprints in a contractual
transaction (as in the purchase of your airline ticket) is no excuse
for the violation of what you didn't know you violated.

Quite. But irrelevant.

Irrelevant ONLY to the uninformed.


I just read through the *entire* terms of the last airline ticket I
purchased.

Really? From which source, of which airline?

It doesn't take a genius to realize that the pages and pages of Rules
and regulations on airline webpages alone are not given to you or are
printed at the back of your ticket.

And those webpages do not contain all the rules and conditions they
send to travel agencies who handle the purchase of a large number of
tickets.


As with any other, nothing there about me agreeing 'not to try to
avoid ...' anything.

Don't be so literal minded. When an airlines choose to exercise its
RULE (supposedly known to all travel agencies) about throwing away
either the front end of the back end of roundtrip tickets, YOUR
ignorance about said rules that are implicit in your contractual
agreement in purchasing the ticket, will leave you very little leg
to stand on.

-- Bob.

I believe that Craig is one of my mob. You may find your
laws and ours differ somewhat, particularly when it comes to
making customers aware of their responsibilities under a
contract. In most cases here for normal consumers at the
small claims (under $5000) level, the provider of the
service has a responsibility to make the customer aware of
all significant implications if they intend to enforce them.

I believe that part is quite universal, not limited to OZ.

Obscure clauses in fine or faint print or on deeply embedded
web-pages would be thrown out of court unless the provider
could show that they specifically made the customer aware of
them. I'm not a lawyer, that's just opinion from reading the
local papers here.

That pivots on the interpretation of "obscure clauses", in
faint print or not. It's hardly obscure clauses if all
travel agencies know about them and most frequent flyers
are aware of their existence even thought they may not have
put the matter to a test at their own risk.

Maybe you should get your one-way/round-trip bucket shop
tickets from Qantas?

What you said may well be the case in OZ, especially on
Qantas. The workers of Qantas at the airport don't even
know the rules of Qantas -- that was POSTED plainly for
everyone to see, a few feet away from them.

I had that experience when I was flying Qantas from Cairns
to Sydney. Because of their abominable restriction on
check luggage allowance, I had already left TWO 70-lb pieces
of luggage at the Cairns Hilton, to be picked up on my way
back from Sydney to fly home on Continental.

The carry-on allowance was no less stringent, so I was very
careful to pack the allowable number of pieces, and weighed
each piece (mostly presents for friends at Sydney) carefully.
It wasn't until we got to the check-in counter that the
agent made some noises about the number of pieces we could
carry that we did some quick re-shuffling of the contents
and carry-on bags, only to find out that they were applying
one set of rules applicable to flights numbered 300 and above
(or something like that) while our flight was in a different
category for which what was posted (and what I had found
out) applied.

Cheers, Alan, Australia

That's why I didn't even bother to keep the miles I had flown
on Qantas for possible future use -- because there will NOT
be any such possible use. :-)

I don't fly Qantas even though I can fly FREE on my CO FFMs.
I even went OUT of my way to fly FREE on Korean Air from LAX
to Korea enroute to Auckland, requiring more of my FFMs, than
taking a more direct route, using less FFMs, to fly Qantas.

In our 'Merkin parlance, Qantas sucks. )

-- Bob.

Reef Fish wrote:

Craig Welch wrote:

On 3 Oct 2005 20:05:31 -0700, "Reef Fish"
wrote:


I can't see that charge sticking, once you had taken up the matter
with your bank.

Why not? You agreed to the terms of the ticket when you purchased it. One of
those terms said that you agreed not to try to avoid the restrictions of the
ticket type and that if you did, the airline had the right to bill you for the
difference.

Nope. No ticket I've ever bought has had a term where I agreed 'not
to try to avoid ...' anything.

Ignorance of the law, or the content of the fineprints in a contractual
transaction (as in the purchase of your airline ticket) is no excuse
for the violation of what you didn't know you violated.

Quite. But irrelevant.


Irrelevant ONLY to the uninformed.


I just read through the *entire* terms of the last airline ticket I
purchased.


Really? From which source, of which airline?

It doesn't take a genius to realize that the pages and pages of Rules
and regulations on airline webpages alone are not given to you or are
printed at the back of your ticket.

And those webpages do not contain all the rules and conditions they
send to travel agencies who handle the purchase of a large number of
tickets.



As with any other, nothing there about me agreeing 'not to try to
avoid ...' anything.


Don't be so literal minded. When an airlines choose to exercise its
RULE (supposedly known to all travel agencies) about throwing away
either the front end of the back end of roundtrip tickets, YOUR
ignorance about said rules that are implicit in your contractual
agreement in purchasing the ticket, will leave you very little leg
to stand on.

-- Bob.



It is an interesting point. In my mind the rules for a contract are
stated in the contract which is delivered. While tradition does permit
those to be printed in text so small as to be difficult to read I do not
see a tradition that permits the rules to not actually be printed in the
contract.

Certainly some rules are constructed thru law and associated treaties
but actual agreements between parties should be presented.

Well.. I have a copy of the 'small print' we are required to attach to
all of the tickets at our agency and it says
"Air Transportation, whether it is domestic or international (including
domestic protions of international journeys), is subject to the
individual terms of the transporting air carriers, which are herein
incorporated by reference and made part of the contract of carriage"

further down it says

"you have the right to inspect the full text of each transporting air
carriers terms at it's airport and city ticketing offices. You also
have the right. upon request, to receive free of charge the full text
of the applicable terms incorporated by reference from each of the
transporting air carriers. Information on ordering the full text of
each air carriers terms is available at any location where the air
carriers tickets are sold"

So, what they are basically saying is that by purchesing and using the
ticket you are agreeing to accept the terms and conditions which are
available for you to inspect on request at the time that you make that
puchase.

Those terms and conditions will say something to the effect that you
won't try to undercut the fare for the journey you actually take by
'creatve ticketing' (throwing away the return coupon, ficticious onward
points etc). If you do, they have the right to cahrge you the fare for
the journey you actually took.

..

On 4 Oct 2005 07:31:32 -0700, "Reef Fish"
wrote:

only to find out that they were applying
one set of rules applicable to flights numbered 300 and above
(or something like that) while our flight was in a different
category for which what was posted (and what I had found
out) applied.

It's pretty simple. Numbers under 400 are international
flights - with rules that are probably the same as the CO
flight you flew in on. Numbers over 400 are domestic. I
suspect you'll find similar rule differences on your own
domestic and international carriers. Could you have carried
those extra bags without extra cost on Southwest or USAir?

You're the one talking about web-page rules. Did you read
these (slightly edited for brevity, 32Kg is 70 lbs). Note
the final paragraphs on domestic allowances if you are
continuing international flights and also on unaccompanied
baggage. Do your homework next time, and you'll be able to
fly a shorter and warmer route. The carry on rules make
similar allowances.

Checked Baggage
http://www.qantas.com.au/info/flying...baggageChecked

Passengers (including children) on Qantas are allowed the
following baggage. No single item may exceed 32kg in weight.
Route Piece Allowance and Dimensions Weight Allowance
Australian Domestic
Business: 3 pieces
Economy: 1 piece
Total dimensions* of each piece must not exceed 140cm (54in)
32kg (70lb) per piece

Travel to/from USA,
US Territories, Tahiti, South America and Canada^
via the Pacific
First: 2 pieces
Total dimensions* of each piece must not exceed 158cm (62in)
Business/Economy: 2 pieces
Total dimensions* of the 2 pieces must not exceed 270cm
(106in) with no 1 piece exceeding 158cm (62in)
Infants:+ 1 piece
Total dimensions must not exceed 115cm (45in)

32kg (70lb) per piece
All other International^
First: 40kg (88lb)
Business: 30kg (66lb)
Economy: 20kg (44lb)
Infants:+ 10kg (22lb)

^ If your itinerary includes a flight to/from or via the
USA, US Territories, Tahiti, South America or Canada, you
are entitled to two pieces of checked baggage on all Qantas,
QantasLink and Australian Airlines operated flights within
your itinerary#, regardless of whether these flights appear
on the same or a separate ticket. You will be required to
provide proof of your international ticket at check-in
indicating travel to/from or via the USA, US Territories,
Tahiti, South America or Canada.

# Valid for the duration of your international ticket, or up
to a maximum of 12 months from the date of the first flight
to/from the USA, US Territories, Tahiti, South America or
Canada - whichever date falls first.
* Total dimensions are measured by adding together the
width, height and depth of the bag.
+ Infants are aged under 2 years for International,
Australian and New Zealand domestic travel.

Please be aware stowage limitations apply on some QantasLink
operated services. Baggage may at times need to be
transported on a different flight to the passenger. Domestic
Travel is defined as travel not combined with any
international flights. International Travel is defined as
travel between two or more countries including any flights
within those countries when they are combined with
international travel.

Additional checked baggage allowances are available for
Platinum, Gold, and Silver Frequent Flyers and Qantas Club
members on Qantas operated services (not available on
QantasLink services operated by Dash 8 or Beechcraft
aircraft, partner airlines or codeshare services not
operated by Qantas).

To minimise the risk of damage to undeveloped film, we
recommend that it is packed in your carry on baggage rather
than in your checked baggage. If you have queries regarding
possible damage to your film in carry on baggage, please
check with the screening officers.
Baggage for Children & Infants

Children are entitled to the same baggage allowance as
adults. Adults accompanying infants are entitled to check-in
one collapsible stroller or a carry basket or bassinet (to
be stowed in the aircraft hold) and infant food and nappies
for use inflight. This is in addition to the normal free
baggage allowance for adults.
Additional Collection

A charge will apply for any baggage carried in excess of the
free allowance. Additional collection rates vary depending
on the destination. The carriage of baggage in excess of the
free baggage allowance is subject to space being available.
Unaccompanied Baggage

As a service to passengers, we offer an unaccompanied
baggage service on most routes. This service is a convenient
and cost-effective alternative to paying excess baggage.

Unaccompanied Baggage can only consist of personal clothing
and articles including books, portable music instruments and
portable sporting equipment. You must hold an international
ticket (for travel on any airline) between the origin and
destination airports. The baggage must be consigned at the
freight terminal before your flight.

In Sydney, baggage can be consigned at the Qantas
Unaccompanied Baggage counter at Sydney International
Airport. Unaccompanied Baggage is carried on a 'space
available' basis to the destination, not necessarily on the
same flight as the passenger.

Note: You may be required to pay handling or government
customs and quarantine charges on unaccompanied baggage.

For more information call 1300 368 747 within Australia or
your local
Qantas Freight Sales office.
Locking Checked Baggage

We recommend that passengers lock their checked baggage.
However, it may be necessary to open and inspect your
baggage as part of the security screening process. If your
baggage is locked, and you are not present when it is
necessary to open it for Government mandated additional
security checks, the lock may be broken by security
screeners.

We are unable to advise at the time of check-in whether a
passenger's baggage will need to undergo additional security
checks. Qantas is not liable for damaged locks that must be
opened for security purposes.
Travelling to or from the United States

For passengers travelling to or from the United States, the
US Transportation Security Administration (TSA) advises that
passengers can avoid the need for locks to be broken by
using a TSA recognised locking mechanism, which can be
opened by the TSA. For further information, visit the TSA
website.
Baggage wrapping

Passengers who choose to utilise baggage-wrapping services
offered at some airports should allow additional time to
complete this process before check-in. Should wrapped
baggage need to undergo Government mandated additional
security checks the wrapping will be removed and not
replaced.
Cheers, Alan, Australia

Alan S wrote:
On 4 Oct 2005 07:31:32 -0700, "Reef Fish"
wrote:

only to find out that they were applying
one set of rules applicable to flights numbered 300 and above
(or something like that) while our flight was in a different
category for which what was posted (and what I had found
out) applied.

It's pretty simple. Numbers under 400 are international
flights - with rules that are probably the same as the CO
flight you flew in on. Numbers over 400 are domestic.

It was a domestic flight, from Cairns to Sydney!

I suspect you'll find similar rule differences on your own
domestic and international carriers. Could you have carried
those extra bags without extra cost on Southwest or USAir?

Never use those airlines.

You're the one talking about web-page rules. Did you read
these (slightly edited for brevity, 32Kg is 70 lbs).

Don't have the heart to waste my time reading it again.
I am 100% positive that the allowance was NOT 70 lbs, but
something like 20 kgs or 44 lbs. I already knew that if
it were a continuation of my CO flight, my CO allowance
would have applied.

Note
the final paragraphs on domestic allowances if you are
continuing international flights and also on unaccompanied
baggage.

But that was NOT a continuing flight. The Qantas roundtrip
was booked separately, after we had stayed a week in Cairns.
Remember the Cairns Hilton I mentioned?

Do your homework next time, and you'll be able to
fly a shorter and warmer route. The carry on rules make
similar allowances.

I did my homework, and did it correctly. SQ has the same
stinking allowance as Qantas for the DOMESTIC flight from
Singapore to Bali.

Checked Baggage
http://www.qantas.com.au/info/flying...baggageChecked

Passengers (including children) on Qantas are allowed the
following baggage. No single item may exceed 32kg in weight.
Route Piece Allowance and Dimensions Weight Allowance
Australian Domestic
Business: 3 pieces
Economy: 1 piece
Total dimensions* of each piece must not exceed 140cm (54in)
32kg (70lb) per piece

Travel to/from USA,
US Territories, Tahiti, South America and Canada^
via the Pacific
First: 2 pieces
Total dimensions* of each piece must not exceed 158cm (62in)
Business/Economy: 2 pieces
Total dimensions* of the 2 pieces must not exceed 270cm
(106in) with no 1 piece exceeding 158cm (62in)
Infants:+ 1 piece
Total dimensions must not exceed 115cm (45in)

32kg (70lb) per piece
All other International^
First: 40kg (88lb)
Business: 30kg (66lb)
Economy: 20kg (44lb)
Infants:+ 10kg (22lb)

^ If your itinerary includes a flight to/from or via the
USA, US Territories, Tahiti, South America or Canada, you
are entitled to two pieces of checked baggage on all Qantas,

I checked and doubled checked THAT clause when I was in Cairns.
While it was in MY itinerary, because the flights (roundtrip
to Cairns on CO) and (roundtrip Cairns to Sydney) were booked
separately, this was the single piece per person allowance,
unless rules have changed since 2003:

Economy: 20kg (44lb)


QantasLink and Australian Airlines operated flights within
your itinerary#, regardless of whether these flights appear
on the same or a separate ticket. You will be required to
provide proof of your international ticket at check-in
indicating travel to/from or via the USA, US Territories,
Tahiti, South America or Canada.

I think YOU are confused about what constitutes a continuation
and what is NOT.

# Valid for the duration of your international ticket, or up
to a maximum of 12 months from the date of the first flight
to/from the USA, US Territories, Tahiti, South America or
Canada - whichever date falls first.

If my international ticket was on Qantas perhaps. But NOT
when my international portion was on CO, on a completely
separate itinerary.

the rest of the allowance garbage snipped because of its
irrelevance to my Qantas flight.

Cheers, Alan, Australia

A big Bronx cheer to Qantas (as in "Qantas sucks").

-- Bob.

Craig Welch wrote:

Why not? You agreed to the terms of the ticket when you purchased it. One of
those terms said that you agreed not to try to avoid the restrictions of the
ticket type and that if you did, the airline had the right to bill you for the
difference.

Nope. No ticket I've ever bought has had a term where I agreed 'not
to try to avoid ...' anything.


Guess again. Here's just one example:

http://www.aa.com/content/customerSe...Carriage.jhtml


Note the para that states:

American specifically prohibits the practices commonly known as:

Back to Back Ticketing: The combination of two or more roundtrip excursion fares
end to end for the purpose of circumventing minimum stay requirements.

Throwaway Ticketing: The usage of roundtrip excursion fare for one-way travel,
and

Hidden City/Point Beyond Ticketing: Purchase of a fare from a point before the
passenger's actual origin or to a point beyond the passenger's actual
destination.

Where a ticket is invalidated as the result of the passenger's non-compliance
with any term or condition of sale, American has the right in its sole
discretion to:

1. Cancel any remaining portion of the passenger's itinerary,
2. Confiscate unused flight coupons,
3. Refuse to board the passenger or check the passenger's luggage, or
4. Assess the passenger for the reasonable remaining value of the ticket,
which shall be no less than the difference between the fare actually paid and
the lowest fare applicable to the passenger's actual itinerary




Then, judging by your email address, here's another:

http://www.singaporeair.com/saa/en_U...l/carriage.jsp

Note in particular the sentence in Article 5 that states "Applicable fares for
carriage governed by these Conditions are those published by or on behalf of
Carrier or, if not so published, constructed in accordance with Carrier's
Regulations."

That basically states that you follow there rules for fares.