A380 a White Elephant?

Tom Peel wrote:
mrtravel schrieb:
Tchiowa wrote:y.

Bottom line, what we are seeing is the typical problem when politicians
cross out of their own areas and get involved in business or science.
If Airbus was private instead of controlled by government agencies we
wouldn't be seeing this.

If it were private, it would have never been built.

Sorry to have to tell you guys, but EADS, the company that builds the
Airbus, is a public limited liability company.
http://www.reports.eads.net/eads/ar_...r.php?id=c_1_3

With the French and German governments as primary stock holders and
controllers.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Neil Williams writes:

True - but then all it is is a big jet aircraft, the technology for
which is fairly proven, including the bloody huge 6-engined, split tail
cargo thing that went over my head at Stockport last weekend, dwarfing
the 747 that passed previously. Why *should* it have so many problems?

Too many cooks spoil the broth--especially when most of them aren't
cooks to begin with.

It's coming out now that the various design and construction facilities
were using different software and the pieces aren't compatible with
each other.

Tchiowa wrote:
With the French and German governments as primary stock holders and
controllers.


The largest german shareholder in EADS is: Daimler Chrysler. Last I
heard, that was not a government entity.

The largest french shareholder in EADS is Lagardère, a large media
company in France.

Where the government have stakes is in the provisions of loans, tax
treatment etc.

In the case of France and Germany, because Airbus is such a large
employer (and because they have loans/etc), the governments do keep a
good relationship with Airbus and the EADS shareholders.

This is not too different from Boeing keeping good relations with the
USA government and getting the USA goverment to help it make sales
abroad (China comes to mind).

The big difference is that Boeing works with only one government.
Airbus/EADS has to contend with competition between different
governments (especially french against german). So the cooperation is
more visible/transparent than in the case of Boeing.

And now, a Russian bank is bought 5% of EADS. And it would like to buy
more. And in the end, EADS may not have a choice but to let the russians
in because they'll need the cash badly. And the russians may become the
second largest shareholder in EADS if Daimler Chrysler goes ahead to
further reduce its stake in EADS.


Yes, there was a huge risk in launching the 380. And without government
help, EADS could not have done it all by itself.

Note that Boeing didn't launch the 787 all by itself either. It got many
corporations to buy into the project too, and in the case of Japan, the
japanese government put in huge subsidies to get japanese corporations
big contracts.


Don't think for a minute that Boeing doesn't have very close ties with
the USA government. It does. And it doesn't have to lobby hard because
Boeing is a very strategic and large part of the USA economy. And when
Boeing starts to spit out those 787s to be delivered mostly outside of
the USA, it will once again become the USA's largest exporter and help
sustain the USA dollar to compensate for all the chinese imports that go
to Wallmart stores. The USA government has a large vested interest in
seeing Boeing succeed.

nobody wrote:

Tchiowa wrote:

With the French and German governments as primary stock holders and
controllers.



The largest german shareholder in EADS is: Daimler Chrysler. Last I
heard, that was not a government entity.

The largest french shareholder in EADS is Lagardère, a large media
company in France.

Of course, a large part (30 percent?) of EADs is owned by SOGEADE
1/2 of SOGEADE is owned by the French Government

nobody wrote:
Tchiowa wrote:
With the French and German governments as primary stock holders and
controllers.

The largest german shareholder in EADS is: Daimler Chrysler. Last I
heard, that was not a government entity.

The largest french shareholder in EADS is Lagardère, a large media
company in France.

Where the government have stakes is in the provisions of loans, tax
treatment etc.

http://www.airbus.com/en/corporate/p...any_structure/

"The four national entities which had previously formed the Airbus
consortium transferred their Airbus-related assets to the new company
and became shareholders in Airbus -- Airbus France, Airbus Deutschland
and Airbus Espana merging as the European Aeronautic Defence and Space
Company (EADS) with 80% shares and BAE Systems with 20%."

http://www.eads.com/web/lang/en/1024...31000036..html

Roughly 30% for SOGEADE which is controlled by the French government.

Only 42% of the stock is free float and the French government holds a
tiny portion of that in addition to controlling SOGEADE.

SEPI is a Spanish state company which owns 5 1/2%.

The UK government controls 20% of Airbus through BAE.

snip

Note that Boeing didn't launch the 787 all by itself either. It got many
corporations to buy into the project too, and in the case of Japan, the
japanese government put in huge subsidies to get japanese corporations
big contracts.

Corporations investing is a huge difference from governments
controlling.

Don't think for a minute that Boeing doesn't have very close ties with
the USA government. It does.

Ownership, not ties.

By the time you take the various portions that the governments own,
roughly 1/2 of Airbus is owned by European government entities.

Plus they subsidize it beyond all reasonable economic sense.

Tchiowa wrote:
nobody wrote:

Tchiowa wrote:

With the French and German governments as primary stock holders and
controllers.

The largest german shareholder in EADS is: Daimler Chrysler. Last I
heard, that was not a government entity.

The largest french shareholder in EADS is Lagardère, a large media
company in France.

Where the government have stakes is in the provisions of loans, tax
treatment etc.


http://www.airbus.com/en/corporate/p...any_structure/

"The four national entities which had previously formed the Airbus
consortium transferred their Airbus-related assets to the new company
and became shareholders in Airbus -- Airbus France, Airbus Deutschland
and Airbus Espana merging as the European Aeronautic Defence and Space
Company (EADS) with 80% shares and BAE Systems with 20%."

http://www.eads.com/web/lang/en/1024.../31000036.html

Roughly 30% for SOGEADE which is controlled by the French government.


I thought the French government owned only 50 percent of SOGEADE.

mrtravel wrote:
Tchiowa wrote:
nobody wrote:

Tchiowa wrote:

With the French and German governments as primary stock holders and
controllers.

The largest german shareholder in EADS is: Daimler Chrysler. Last I
heard, that was not a government entity.

The largest french shareholder in EADS is Lagardère, a large media
company in France.

Where the government have stakes is in the provisions of loans, tax
treatment etc.


http://www.airbus.com/en/corporate/p...any_structure/

"The four national entities which had previously formed the Airbus
consortium transferred their Airbus-related assets to the new company
and became shareholders in Airbus -- Airbus France, Airbus Deutschland
and Airbus Espana merging as the European Aeronautic Defence and Space
Company (EADS) with 80% shares and BAE Systems with 20%."

http://www.eads.com/web/lang/en/1024.../31000036.html

Roughly 30% for SOGEADE which is controlled by the French government.


I thought the French government owned only 50 percent of SOGEADE.

Which translates to "control".

Tchiowa wrote:
mrtravel wrote:

Tchiowa wrote:

nobody wrote:


Tchiowa wrote:


With the French and German governments as primary stock holders and
controllers.

The largest german shareholder in EADS is: Daimler Chrysler. Last I
heard, that was not a government entity.

The largest french shareholder in EADS is Lagardère, a large media
company in France.

Where the government have stakes is in the provisions of loans, tax
treatment etc.


http://www.airbus.com/en/corporate/p...any_structure/

"The four national entities which had previously formed the Airbus
consortium transferred their Airbus-related assets to the new company
and became shareholders in Airbus -- Airbus France, Airbus Deutschland
and Airbus Espana merging as the European Aeronautic Defence and Space
Company (EADS) with 80% shares and BAE Systems with 20%."

http://www.eads.com/web/lang/en/1024.../31000036.html

Roughly 30% for SOGEADE which is controlled by the French government.


I thought the French government owned only 50 percent of SOGEADE.


Which translates to "control".

Do they get more "control" than the company that owns the other 50 percent?

mrtravel wrote:
Of course, a large part (30 percent?) of EADs is owned by SOGEADE
1/2 of SOGEADE is owned by the French Government


The french government's stake in EADS ia 15%. Lagardère was 30% but is
now 22.5%, as is Daimler's holdings.

mrtravel wrote:
Tchiowa wrote:
mrtravel wrote:

I thought the French government owned only 50 percent of SOGEADE.

Which translates to "control".

Do they get more "control" than the company that owns the other 50 percent?

The rest is a holding company.