Cambodia crackdown on pedos

"Tebojockey" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:42:30 -0800 (PST), Citrus Flavor
wrote:

Xtile wrote:
six-toes wrote:
PHNOM PENH,

Cambodia Cambodian officials are talking about ways to stop
foreigners
from coming to their country to have sex with children.

They could start by arresting the pimps....but....wait....the pimps are
government people, army people, hmmm......

Indeed. And if you read the AFP wire story (
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...afp/cambodiaec
onomytourismchildsex_050228070410a )
there's also this quote:

"They will be looking at how the private sector, NGOs, embassies and
the government can work together better, particularly in providing
information, (and) arresting and prosecuting Westerners," World Vision
country director Talmage Payne told reporters.

So again the phantom scourge of the 'Western Pedophile' will be the
focus of this latest effort, no matter that Westerners have always
been a vanishingly small part of the problem. Nevermind that far
and away the vast majority of pedophiles in Cambodia are either
themselves Cambodian or are Chinese, Taiwanese, or Japanese businessmen
or tourists. If the NGOs can identify the WHITE MAN as the problem
then they can more easily go to the WHITE COUNTRIES for funding for
their latest fleet of Landrovers (or some such), which is the ONLY
thing any of this is about.

It's a prime example of the hysterical NGO and the "protect the
children" cause du jure. Now every white person going there will be
the subject of self-appointed NGO overseers who will scream and shout
hysterically when the person goes anywhere near a strip club. It's
just a way to get noticed for the NGOs. Unfortunately for Cambodia,
the biggest threat really does come from the Asian business person and
sex tourist.

Have you ever noticed that anytime an NGO or the government, or indeed
anyone proselytizing about anything begins to lose their argument,
they turn to the old standby winner: "save the children!"?

I don't hold your alleged "rights" to sex tourism in high regard.
It is not wise to brag about being a piece of ****.

Chris Blunt wrote:
On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 02:01:56 GMT, michael wrote:



Citrus Flavor wrote:


So again the phantom scourge of the 'Western Pedophile' will be the
focus of this latest effort, no matter that Westerners have always
been a vanishingly small part of the problem. Nevermind that far
and away the vast majority of pedophiles in Cambodia are either
themselves Cambodian or are Chinese, Taiwanese, or Japanese businessmen
or tourists. If the NGOs can identify the WHITE MAN as the problem
then they can more easily go to the WHITE COUNTRIES for funding for
their latest fleet of Landrovers (or some such), which is the ONLY
thing any of this is about.


... i'm as sceptical as the next guy when i hear this sort of thing, but
have you got anything in the way of a reliable stat to back up your
claim that "Cambodian ... Chinese, Taiwanese, or Japanese businessmen
or tourists" make up the "vast majority" of pedophiles in Cambodia?
...or is this just another anecdotal derived from your standing in line
behind all these folk?


Its reasonable to assume that the vast majority of offenders would be
Cambodian since they make up all but a very tiny proportion of the
population.

Why not just address the problem in a general way rather than focus on
specifically targeting tourists of any particular nationality? If the
government had said they were going to start a campaign against
foreigners who drop litter in the street, nobody would be in any doubt
that there was an ulterior motive there.

Chris


Have to agree. Until they cut it out completely, including what the
Cambodians are doing, it will always be there. The same applies to
Thailand.

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 15:09:12 GMT, michael wrote:



Chris Blunt wrote:

Of course not, but your comparison is invalid because Happy Pizza is a
business that few locals would be likely to visit because of its
relatively high prices. Child sexual abuse is not something carried
out by any particular economic, social or racial group. Most research
on the subject says that the majority of children affected are abused
by someone they know - either a family member or someone close to the
family. The majority of offenders in Cambodia are Cambodians, just as
the majority of offenders in any country are locals of that country.
Trying to push the blame onto outsiders does nothing to address the
real problem, but has a lot to do with getting foreign funding for
NGO's and the government.

bait and switch may work after all that happy pizza, but not this early
in the morning... we are talking about child prostitution... not about
western men travelling with their families and taking a poke at the kids
after a few beers... but you already knew that, right?

We're talking about a crackdown on pedophiles, and in particular about
the government specifically targeting foreigners. I'm simply stating
that the vast majority of pedophiles that children in Cambodia (or any
other country) are abused by are locals, and probably close family
members. By targeting only foreign tourists they are missing the main
source of the problem. I'm not sure what part about that you have a
problem with. You appear to simply want to cast doubt on what I write
without making any valid point other than some irrelevant references
to happy pizza.

Chris

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 15:09:12 GMT, michael wrote:



Chris Blunt wrote:

Of course not, but your comparison is invalid because Happy Pizza is a
business that few locals would be likely to visit because of its
relatively high prices. Child sexual abuse is not something carried
out by any particular economic, social or racial group. Most research
on the subject says that the majority of children affected are abused
by someone they know - either a family member or someone close to the
family. The majority of offenders in Cambodia are Cambodians, just as
the majority of offenders in any country are locals of that country.
Trying to push the blame onto outsiders does nothing to address the
real problem, but has a lot to do with getting foreign funding for
NGO's and the government.

bait and switch may work after all that happy pizza, but not this early
in the morning... we are talking about child prostitution... not about
western men travelling with their families and taking a poke at the kids
after a few beers... but you already knew that, right?

We're talking about a crackdown on pedophiles, and in particular about
the government specifically targeting foreigners. I'm simply stating
that the vast majority of pedophiles that children in Cambodia (or any
other country) are abused by are locals, and probably close family
members. By targeting only foreign tourists they are missing the main
source of the problem. I'm not sure what part about that you have a
problem with. You appear to simply want to cast doubt on what I write
without making any valid point other than some irrelevant references
to happy pizza.

Chris

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 15:32:16 GMT, "JosephP"
wrote:


"michael" wrote in message
...


Chris Blunt wrote:

Of course not, but your comparison is invalid because Happy Pizza is a
business that few locals would be likely to visit because of its
relatively high prices. Child sexual abuse is not something carried
out by any particular economic, social or racial group. Most research
on the subject says that the majority of children affected are abused
by someone they know - either a family member or someone close to the
family. The majority of offenders in Cambodia are Cambodians, just as
the majority of offenders in any country are locals of that country.
Trying to push the blame onto outsiders does nothing to address the
real problem, but has a lot to do with getting foreign funding for
NGO's and the government.


So child prostitution should continue as a tourist attraction until the
entire world has eliminated child abuse ???

Not at all, but to be most effective, you should use your resources to
target the main cause of the problem rather than some minority group
on the sidelines.

As you well know, doing that would not get the attention of the
hard-currency donors from overseas, and that's what this is all about.
Its about gaining publicity to obtain money to pay for shiny new
Landcruisers for NGO's and government officials to ride around in. The
real interests of abused Cambodian children are their least of their
priorities.

Chris

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:14:56 -0800, "PeterL"
wrote:


"Chris Blunt" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 02:03:07 GMT, michael wrote:



Chris Blunt wrote:

Its reasonable to assume that the vast majority of offenders would be
Cambodian since they make up all but a very tiny proportion of the
population.


by your "reasoning" we can assume that the vast majority of happy pizza
consumed on sisowath quay is consumed by cambodians... my gut instinct
tells me this is idiotic... but, hey, assume away...

Of course not, but your comparison is invalid because Happy Pizza is a
business that few locals would be likely to visit because of its
relatively high prices.

We are talking about child porn as a business. They are not giving locals a
discount.

Where in this discussion has child porn as a business been mentioned
until you introduced it now? We're talking about a crackdown on
pedophiles.

Child sexual abuse is not something carried
out by any particular economic, social or racial group.

Certainly economic group. E.g. those who can afford to pay for it. That
is, not locals.

Most pedophiles who abuse children are part of, or close to the
child's family. The issue of money does not enter into it.

Chris

On 3 Mar 2005 09:21:34 -0800, (icheck2000) wrote:

Chris Blunt wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 02:07:46 GMT, michael wrote:



Chris Blunt wrote:

Yes, but why just target foreigners when the majority of those
involved are locals? You're only scratching the surface of the problem
if you attack it that way.

so now we've moved from "reasonable assumption" to blunt statement of
fact... amazing!

Yes, the vast majority of child sexual abuse cases in any country are
committed by locals of that country. That's a statement of fact, which
I don't find amazing at all.

Chris

Chris,

You are mostly right and I agree with you. But there are instances
that we most educate to the most educated first, in this case, the
western visitors. As a Cambodian-Canadian, I cannot stand men
attitudes toward women overthere. I find many of them are just
discussed when it comes to treating women or children of opposite sex.
However, that being said, I would absolutely encourage westerners who
are supposed to be more civilized to make sure that they are civilized
before they put their arms or fingures pointing others who are
obviously less fortunate. Human rights are protected if you who cliam
to be one practice it.

I agree, but the westerners who travel to Cambodia for this kind of
thing would just as readily do the same thing in their own countries
if only they could get away with it. The reason they cannot is because
western culture permits society to expose these people, and the law is
sufficiently well enforced to bring them to justice. Unfortunately, in
Cambodia and many other countries in the region the culture is to
sweep the problem under the carpet. Every village has people who abuse
children, and people in the community all know who they are, but they
just keep quiet about it. This is the main reason children continue to
suffer. The foreign tourists who do it are evil of course, but they
represent just the tip of the iceberg.

Chris

"Chris Blunt" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 15:32:16 GMT, "JosephP"
wrote:


"michael" wrote in message
...


Chris Blunt wrote:

Of course not, but your comparison is invalid because Happy Pizza is
a
business that few locals would be likely to visit because of its
relatively high prices. Child sexual abuse is not something carried
out by any particular economic, social or racial group. Most research
on the subject says that the majority of children affected are abused
by someone they know - either a family member or someone close to the
family. The majority of offenders in Cambodia are Cambodians, just as
the majority of offenders in any country are locals of that country.
Trying to push the blame onto outsiders does nothing to address the
real problem, but has a lot to do with getting foreign funding for
NGO's and the government.


So child prostitution should continue as a tourist attraction until the
entire world has eliminated child abuse ???

Not at all, but to be most effective, you should use your resources to
target the main cause of the problem rather than some minority group
on the sidelines.

As you well know, doing that would not get the attention of the
hard-currency donors from overseas, and that's what this is all about.
Its about gaining publicity to obtain money to pay for shiny new
Landcruisers for NGO's and government officials to ride around in. The
real interests of abused Cambodian children are their least of their
priorities.

Chris


I do not "well know" that for a fact.
For example the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation is funded to a tune of 25
billion dollars to (as one of their main objectives) develop vacines for
children in underdeveloped countries.
I will certainly agree that various NGO's have varing degrees of
effectiveness.
But in the face of credible specific evidence regarding specific
organizations, rambling about Land cruisers is just irresponsible - aside
from the question of how to get around efficiently where roads are poor or
non-existent.

Even taking your hypothesis
1) Funds would not be avaiable to tacking domestic problems.
2) Funds world be avaiable to takle imported problems.
Therefore that is an efficient use of resources since those resources
wouldn't be available for #1 anyway.

I see severe logic problems here, and a free pass for peodophiles.

Chris Blunt wrote:

We're talking about a crackdown on pedophiles,

right... now read this:

"Although there are sexual abuse rings and individual abusers who target
large numbers of children, most children are abused by men they know.
Most child sex offenders are married men, who have sex with their wives
and sometimes other adult women - they are children's fathers, uncles,
teachers as well as family friends and neighbours. These men do not fit
the clinical definition of 'paedophile' - adults whose sexual interest
is limited to children - nor do they fit most peoples perceptions of a
'paedophile' - a loner, someone with poor social skills. So most child
sexual abusers are not 'paedophiles' in any clear or obvious sense."


so, when you go off on a tangent about "child abuse", it seems to me you
must be indulging in the herb that makes happy pizza happy... which is
why my happy pizza references are not irrelevant at all... or maybe our
senses of nuance in the english vocabulary are different...

your implicit suggestion seems to be that the cambodian government ought
to target child abuse, including the behaviour of predatory paedophiles,
rather than just paedophiles... a little like suggesting that they use
sticks to beat back the sea rather than build a small dike somewhere...

and contrary to your sense that some western countries have actually
done something about this general sexual child abuse, my sense is that
they have funded treatment programs and clinical research and issued
press releases that have in turn generated reams of often sensationalist
media product and a vaguely "conversational" hysteria in a fairly
predictable sector of the "public", and little else...

sexual abuse of children within families or involving mom's boyfriend,
the vast majority of abuse cases, goes on at an undiminished rate; and
by no definition are therapeutic programs "successful" in their various
treatment approaches to this "problem"...

in other words, the usual smoke and mirrors and a little clump of
westerners who can pat themselves on the back, as they've been doing
since about 1450, extolling "their" superior morality... the original
post mentioned Japanese, Taiwanese and Chinese businessmen and
Cambodians: translation? "them there asians is a lot worse than us"...

is child prostitution available in these "advanced" countries? of
course... is it being targeted by governments? yes... is it fading into
memory as we drift toward some morally pure "western" paradise? no, it
isn't... is it readily available? yes, but only to those with means...

so if you're a less-than-wealthy paedo, you drop $1500 bucks on a ticket
to PP and start sticking your dick in kids at bargain prices, not kids
sleeping in their beds at home, surrounded by family and familiar things
while daddy diddles, which is bad enough to say the least, but kept in
cages in little shacks, underfed and otherwise physically abused for
years or months, and forced to be raped by fat ****s who've flown all
that way and spent all that hard-earned cash to do just that...

i say target them in whatever corrupt and self-serving way things get
done in present-day cambodia and have at it... with funding and
technical assistance from foreign police and the resultant media noise,
the cambodian government COULD actually end up doing something about
THIS problem, i.e. severely limit the size and extent of the child
prostitution business in cambodia (which would also affect vietnam and
burma and thailand)... it will be decades before they have the
infrastructure to emulate western models of "dealing with" the more
common forms of child sexual abuse, keeping in mind that they don't work
anyway...

so, yeah, target foreigners and let 'em whine...


michael













and in particular about
the government specifically targeting foreigners. I'm simply stating
that the vast majority of pedophiles that children in Cambodia (or any
other country) are abused by are locals, and probably close family
members. By targeting only foreign tourists they are missing the main
source of the problem. I'm not sure what part about that you have a
problem with. You appear to simply want to cast doubt on what I write
without making any valid point other than some irrelevant references
to happy pizza.

Chris

"michael" wrote in message
...

Chris Blunt wrote:

We're talking about a crackdown on pedophiles,

right... now read this:

"Although there are sexual abuse rings and individual abusers who target
large numbers of children, most children are abused by men they know.
Most child sex offenders are married men, who have sex with their wives
and sometimes other adult women - they are children's fathers, uncles,
teachers as well as family friends and neighbours. These men do not fit
the clinical definition of 'paedophile' - adults whose sexual interest
is limited to children - nor do they fit most peoples perceptions of a
'paedophile' - a loner, someone with poor social skills. So most child
sexual abusers are not 'paedophiles' in any clear or obvious sense."


so, when you go off on a tangent about "child abuse", it seems to me you
must be indulging in the herb that makes happy pizza happy... which is
why my happy pizza references are not irrelevant at all... or maybe our
senses of nuance in the english vocabulary are different...

your implicit suggestion seems to be that the cambodian government ought
to target child abuse, including the behaviour of predatory paedophiles,
rather than just paedophiles... a little like suggesting that they use
sticks to beat back the sea rather than build a small dike somewhere...

and contrary to your sense that some western countries have actually
done something about this general sexual child abuse, my sense is that
they have funded treatment programs and clinical research and issued
press releases that have in turn generated reams of often sensationalist
media product and a vaguely "conversational" hysteria in a fairly
predictable sector of the "public", and little else...

sexual abuse of children within families or involving mom's boyfriend,
the vast majority of abuse cases, goes on at an undiminished rate; and
by no definition are therapeutic programs "successful" in their various
treatment approaches to this "problem"...

in other words, the usual smoke and mirrors and a little clump of
westerners who can pat themselves on the back, as they've been doing
since about 1450, extolling "their" superior morality... the original
post mentioned Japanese, Taiwanese and Chinese businessmen and
Cambodians: translation? "them there asians is a lot worse than us"...

Let's not forget the wonderful response of the Catholic church to it's
predatory priests.

is child prostitution available in these "advanced" countries? of
course... is it being targeted by governments? yes... is it fading into
memory as we drift toward some morally pure "western" paradise? no, it
isn't... is it readily available? yes, but only to those with means...

so if you're a less-than-wealthy paedo, you drop $1500 bucks on a ticket
to PP and start sticking your dick in kids at bargain prices, not kids
sleeping in their beds at home, surrounded by family and familiar things
while daddy diddles, which is bad enough to say the least, but kept in
cages in little shacks, underfed and otherwise physically abused for
years or months, and forced to be raped by fat ****s who've flown all
that way and spent all that hard-earned cash to do just that...

i say target them in whatever corrupt and self-serving way things get
done in present-day cambodia and have at it... with funding and
technical assistance from foreign police and the resultant media noise,
the cambodian government COULD actually end up doing something about
THIS problem, i.e. severely limit the size and extent of the child
prostitution business in cambodia (which would also affect vietnam and
burma and thailand)... it will be decades before they have the
infrastructure to emulate western models of "dealing with" the more
common forms of child sexual abuse, keeping in mind that they don't work
anyway...

so, yeah, target foreigners and let 'em whine...


michael


Somehow CB's "logic" which I cannot fathom is to dance in seven different
ways trying to say foreign pedophiles should not be confronted. Some of
these arguments appeal to some non-sensical equal opportunity for these
people, or non-fairness.