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  #1161  
Old August 17th, 2006, 04:14 PM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Tchiowa
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Posts: 1,374
Default Draconian vacation policies for US slave workers


Dave Frightens Me wrote:
On 16 Aug 2006 17:16:06 -0700, "Tchiowa" wrote:


The Euro's opinion of themselves?


No. You're insistence on putting all "Euro's" together illustrates a
flaw in your thinking.


You mean kind of like the way you (and others) have lumped Americans
together?

Which part do you disagree with? The fact that Europe is chopped up
into little political units because of a millenium of bigotry and war?


The use of the word 'bigotry' is just bizarre.


It wasn't bigotry that was at the root of many or most of the wars that
created the borders? Of course it was.

The fact the European economy is lagging far, far behind the US? The
fact that unemployment in most of Europe is roughly double what it is
in the US?

Your denial or reality doesn't make these facts go away.


My denial or reality? What the hell are you trying to say? Maybe you
are on crack or yaa baa or something.


Ah, a typical juvenile response. Indicates you have no logical
argument. Thank you for the surrender.

That is meaningless, as you included "real", which could mean anything.

No, Jordi included "real". I quoted him.

Try to keep up.

Getting a bit defensive are we? I never aimed that one at you.


Then you should be careful where you embed your reply. You embedded it
following *my* statement, not anyone else's.


And it wasn't an attack. You are jumping at shadows.


I never said it was an attack. Your tenuous grasp on reality is showing
again.

  #1162  
Old August 17th, 2006, 04:35 PM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Tchiowa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,374
Default Draconian vacation policies for US slave workers



Jordi wrote:
Tchiowa wrote:
Jordi wrote:
If you are unable to understand the difference between government
control and regulation then you have a real problem with economics.

You keep telling 4 weeks holiday is 'control'


??? No I didn't. I cited that as one example that is part of a bigger
problem. 4 weeks holiday is not "control". Government ordering that
companies provide benefits that aren't related to performance is one
example of control.


Pulling back now? You kept telling a 4 week holiday was unsustainable
and government interference until provided with a couple of examples.


You took 2 separate arguments and tried to piece the words together.
And you didn't do a very good job.

And which examples are you talking about? Australia? (You were wrong)
Sweden? (You were wrong) In fact you haven't come up with a single
example. Not one. Every nation you've mentioned that has a government
mandated minimum of 4 weeks vacation has a higher unemployment rate
than the US. The only one that is less is Norway and they are a tiny
country.

In Europe it's part of a much, much bigger problem.


There is a problem with unemployment in Europe. It's not at all related
to the vacation policy, as some countries (some of them in Europe) show.


Which ones? Again and again. You keep saying that then when you cite
countries they turn out to have significantly higher unemployment than
the US.

The mandatory 4 week vacation is not the sole cause. But it is
undeniably one of the causes.

Australia's unemployment rate is the lowest it's been in decades, yet
still 10% higher than the US rate (4.6% - 5.1%, a .5% difference which
is 10% of 4.6% - had to do the math for you so we don't have to
exchange 20 more postings to get you to understand).


5% is usually considered a full employment figure.


And Australia is slightly above that and the US is below that. And this
is the lowest it's been in Australia in decades. As compared with a
fairly typical US unemployment rate.

http://www.budget.gov.au/2005-06/ove...verview_06.htm

Sweden's rate is about 6%, even higher.


Recovering from a 90s economic crisis, and published at 5,8%.


Substantially higher than the US which is also recovering from a 2001
recession.

http://www.indexmundi.com/sweden/unemployment_rate.html

OK. "Other Scandinavian countries"? OK.

Finland (2004, the most recent I found without spending hours proving
you don't know what you're talking about): 8.9%.


Finland is not a Scandinavian country, better brush up your geography.


It was in Scandinavia when I was there. Did they move it?

http://www.goscandinavia.com/

"Welcome to the Official Website of the Scandinavian Tourist Boards in
North America. Please feel free to browse the country websites of
Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandin...logy_and_usage

Geographically the Scandinavian peninsula includes mainland Sweden and
mainland Norway, and also a part of Finland

Norway (population 4 million, smaller than many American *cities*):
4.4%. Roughly the same as the US as a whole.


Nearly a 5% lower, following your math on Australia.


And again, smaller than some US cities. You can't take a tiny part of
the whole of Europe and make a valid comparison with the US. I can find
lots of small spots in the US with far, far lower unemployment.

So none of your examples stand.

And these are the *best examples* you can come up with. Again, as I
have pointed out before, you can try to chop pieces out of the whole to
try to prove something. But that is a distortion. I can cite parts of
the US where unemployment is around 3%. But, *TAKEN AS A WHOLE* the
unemployment rate in Europe is roughly double the rate in the US.


But you don't seem to understand that Europe can't be taken as a whole,
not even the EU.


Too bad about that. I wonder why. All those borders. Couldn't be
bigotry and hatred, could it?

You want to compare pieces of the EU with the whole of the US. Invalid
comparison. Of course that can be explained because when you compare
whole against whole or pieces against pieces you're proven completely
wrong.

Further, your stats don't prove what you claim at all. Yes it's
possible to have high vacations and a competitive economy, but as I've
pointed out *repeatedly*, the vacation mandate is just *part* of the
problem.


Please, it works in other countries, you can't blame unemployment on
vacation after seeing the figures in those other countries.


????? What countries????? Norway? Is that it?????

But that wasn't the claim. The claim was cultural superiority (implied)
due to having a lot of passports and travelling between countries.


It was you who came with that term, you can think what you want. Let's
go back to the Australians, they have an enormous diverse country just
like the Americans and an extremely high % of passport ownership..
don't you think their 5-week holiday may have something to do with
them?


They have a geographically large country but a very large part of it is
not exactly called a vacation destination.

I lived in Australia for about a year. Australia has a much freer
economy than most European countries (very similar to the US). They are
doing just fine, but would do better if the economy was even more free.

But I guess I have to ask why you are hanging your hat on Australia.
You seemed very anxious to brag on Europe's success until you
discovered that European Success is an oxymoron.

But you seem to be claiming that you can't have quality without
quantity. To me "quality" defines a "real" vacation. To you, if it's
not 4 weeks in the first year of your employment it's not "real".


Exactly.


Well then you need to examine your priorities.

I now see why you said holidays can be stressful, if you are trying to
pack an international trip on your sole 2-week holiday you will very
likely be stressed as a result.


If you lived in Europe it would be easy. But, again (and again and
again and again) Americans can do 10 times as much travel as Europeans
without crossing an international border. So you're falling back into
that same trap of assuming things are better in Europe because 1,000
years of hatred created a lot of international borders.

They seem to do pretty well, so the answer is no, as the cap on
vacation is economic sense.


"Cap"? It's a "floor", not a cap.


The floor is there by law, the cap is economic sense, as different
employers give an extra holiday allowance.


???? Do you know what a "cap" is. If there was a cap then 4 weeks would
be the *maximum* allowable.

But given your demonstrated lack of ability to understand things
economic I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

  #1163  
Old August 17th, 2006, 04:40 PM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
TOliver
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 195
Default Draconian vacation policies for US slave workers


"Sarah Banick" wrote ...



Creole food and Philly Cheese Steaks are as common as Big Macs in the
US? I don't think so.
--


--


Maybe not as common, but pretty common nowadays. There are now chain
restaurants and shops in many cities across the country. Here in Atlanta
there are numerous Creole/Cajun restaurants, and two Philly Cheesesteak
locations within a few miles of my house. Lots of communities have Mardi
Gras parties every year and offer their own take on Louisiana cuisine.
Some of it is pretty pathetic, mind you, but it's there :-)

Amusingly, I can think of several generations of USAians who have spent
considerably more time in Europe than "average" or even distinctly
non-average Europeans have spent in the US.

My father's father spent October, 1917 until late 1919 in Western Europe,
his tour extended because of some fluency in German).

While my father spent 1942-1945 unaccountably among the heathen Chinee', my
mother's brothers between them spent 1943-1947 "touring" Western Europe and
tending to post war matters in Germany. One of their sons capped off our
custodial care of the Krauts with a tour during the declining days of
post-Occupation hostages to fortune peering through binocs at the Bear.

From mid1962 until mid1965, I spent 14 months in the "Med" and another
three in "EastLant" visiting all sorts of European tourist traps. Add sis
or so pleasure trrips and one business trip since, and I've spent more time
in several European cities than in some USAian ones.

One brother in law claims more time in Eastern Turkey than in West Texas.

My first cousin, the retired USAF ladypilot, has flown in an out of all
sorts of European fields, but did operate out of Aviano for some period
during a couple of recent unpleasantnesses among the nearby Slavs and was
based in Germany during GWI, hauling the casualties back and forth.

Whilst we may not have done as mch business in Europe as some, all that
occupational occupying/protecting/preventing even more excessive internecine
butchery among Europeans ought to count for something (and certainly
provides a basis to claim that we 'Merkins have often individually spent far
more time in Europe than have Europeans spent wandering about the US).

One thing for sure, the number of headstones covering USAian graves in
Europe certainly exceeds the graves, marked and unmarked, of European
soldiery lost preserving, protecting or simply setting around as good
examples of freedom, liberty and democratic ideals in the US (which does
leave out the French who accompanied Max and Carlota to mexico).

TMO




  #1165  
Old August 17th, 2006, 05:06 PM posted to rec.travel.air,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
[email protected]
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Posts: 751
Default Draconian vacation policies for US slave workers

In article .com,
(Tchiowa) wrote:

Article: 906477 of rec.travel.europe
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From: "Tchiowa"
Newsgroups:
rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.briti sh,soc.culture.usa,alt
.politics.bush
Subject: Draconian vacation policies for US slave workers
Date: 17 Aug 2006 08:35:06 -0700
Organization:
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Jordi wrote:
Tchiowa wrote:
Jordi wrote:
If you are unable to understand the difference between
government
control and regulation then you have a real problem with
economics.

You keep telling 4 weeks holiday is 'control'

??? No I didn't. I cited that as one example that is part of a
bigger
problem. 4 weeks holiday is not "control". Government ordering that
companies provide benefits that aren't related to performance is one
example of control.


Pulling back now? You kept telling a 4 week holiday was unsustainable
and government interference until provided with a couple of examples.


You took 2 separate arguments and tried to piece the words together.
And you didn't do a very good job.

And which examples are you talking about? Australia? (You were wrong)
Sweden? (You were wrong) In fact you haven't come up with a single
example. Not one. Every nation you've mentioned that has a government
mandated minimum of 4 weeks vacation has a higher unemployment rate
than the US. The only one that is less is Norway and they are a tiny
country.

In Europe it's part of a much, much bigger problem.


There is a problem with unemployment in Europe. It's not at all
related
to the vacation policy, as some countries (some of them in Europe)
show.


Which ones? Again and again. You keep saying that then when you cite
countries they turn out to have significantly higher unemployment than
the US.

The mandatory 4 week vacation is not the sole cause. But it is
undeniably one of the causes.

Australia's unemployment rate is the lowest it's been in decades,
yet
still 10% higher than the US rate (4.6% - 5.1%, a .5% difference
which
is 10% of 4.6% - had to do the math for you so we don't have to
exchange 20 more postings to get you to understand).


5% is usually considered a full employment figure.


And Australia is slightly above that and the US is below that. And this
is the lowest it's been in Australia in decades. As compared with a
fairly typical US unemployment rate.

http://www.budget.gov.au/2005-06/ove...verview_06.htm

Sweden's rate is about 6%, even higher.


Recovering from a 90s economic crisis, and published at 5,8%.


Substantially higher than the US which is also recovering from a 2001
recession.

http://www.indexmundi.com/sweden/unemployment_rate.html

OK. "Other Scandinavian countries"? OK.

Finland (2004, the most recent I found without spending hours
proving
you don't know what you're talking about): 8.9%.


Finland is not a Scandinavian country, better brush up your geography.


It was in Scandinavia when I was there. Did they move it?

http://www.goscandinavia.com/

"Welcome to the Official Website of the Scandinavian Tourist Boards in
North America. Please feel free to browse the country websites of
Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandin...logy_and_usage

Geographically the Scandinavian peninsula includes mainland Sweden and
mainland Norway, and also a part of Finland


The beginning of that page states:

"The original and most common definition includes continental Denmark,
mainland Norway and Sweden."

and goes on to say:

"Sometimes Finland is included"
  #1166  
Old August 17th, 2006, 05:25 PM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Hatunen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,483
Default Draconian vacation policies for US slave workers

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 09:19:58 GMT, mrtravel
wrote:

The Reid wrote:

Following up to Hatunen


As I pointed out elsewhere, there were no passports until after
WW1.



Maybe not in the current sense, I'm sure ive seen a passport
signed by Elizabeth 1st. More a safe passage, I imagine.


Isn't this a passport?

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1...20passport.jpg


I reckon it would depend on whether Malta required such a paper
for entry or if this is a simple request from from the consul
asking the Maltese to show Mr Randall all the courtesy of the
port.

It looks more to me like a subdued threat to the Maltese that
Randall is a US citizen so don't try any funny stuff. It was only
a couple of decades after the US went after the barbary Pirates.

Interesting that it's a printed form.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
  #1167  
Old August 17th, 2006, 05:26 PM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Hatunen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,483
Default Draconian vacation policies for US slave workers

On 17 Aug 2006 07:36:11 -0700, "Tchiowa"
wrote:


Hatunen wrote:


Now there's your problem. The assumption that the people in a
city like Paris are representative of the entire country. That
sort of dumb reasoning undermines everything you say.


I see. So the people in Paris aren't French? How about Marseille? I
found the same thing.

You need to get out more.


You need to refine your reading skills and your logical thinking.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
  #1168  
Old August 17th, 2006, 05:32 PM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Hatunen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,483
Default Draconian vacation policies for US slave workers

On 17 Aug 2006 07:46:34 -0700, "Tchiowa"
wrote:


Hatunen wrote:
On 16 Aug 2006 17:52:39 -0700, "Tchiowa"
wrote:


Hatunen wrote:
On 15 Aug 2006 22:45:11 -0700, "Tchiowa"
wrote:


Europeans possession of passports is a result of hatred and bigotry
that has kept the continent at war with itself for centuries. Not
something to be proud of.

and Europeans can travel between most countries without going through
any kind of passport control.

These days, yes. But that's a recent development. The reason a lot of
Euros have passports was because that wasn't the case until recently.

Try to keep up.

As I pointed out elsewhere, there were no passports until after
WW1. The fact that they are no longer needed for much
intra-European travel means that they really only served their
purpose for about 80 years out of two millenia of European
history. You make a pretty weak case with the passport business,
espcially since you don't explain *why* passports are an
indication of bigotry and hatred.

Passports are not an indication of bigotry and hatred. I never said
that.


I could swear it was you who said:

"Europeans possession of passports is a result of hatred and
bigotry that has kept the continent at war with itself for
centuries."


I think I did. But, as I pointed out repeatedly, it's not the passport,
it's the need for the passport. It's the international boundaries.


OK.

A. Passports are not an indications of bigotry and hatred.

B. Europeans possession of passports is a result of hatred and
bigotry

So you claim that those two statements are not contradictory?


Ever hear of "root cause analysis"? You should pick up a book.

The need to have a passport in order to travel more than a couple of
hours in any direction in Europe is a result of the fact that Europe is
chopped up into little political entities.


OK.

And that is a result of
1,000 years or more of bigotry and hatred and war.


Ah, see, you're waffling now; that's not what you've said. You've
said it was a result of bigotry and hatred, not war.


What do you think caused the war? Stale wine?


Well, now. That seems to be the point we largely disagree on,
doesn't it? I say that some wars may have resulted from bigotry
and/or hatred but many wars have not; you say all wars have
resulted from bigotry and hatred.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
  #1169  
Old August 17th, 2006, 05:37 PM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
mrtravel[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,521
Default Draconian vacation policies for US slave workers

Hatunen wrote:

It looks more to me like a subdued threat to the Maltese that
Randall is a US citizen so don't try any funny stuff. It was only
a couple of decades after the US went after the barbary Pirates.

Interesting that it's a printed form.


It's a passport. Passports back then didn't come in a little book.
  #1170  
Old August 17th, 2006, 05:40 PM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Hatunen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,483
Default Draconian vacation policies for US slave workers

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 09:09:07 +0100, The Reid
wrote:

Following up to Hatunen

Tourist spots??? English is the primary and *official* language of
government for the EU.


So because memebrs of the EU bureacracy sometimes use English it
means almost all Europeans speak English? Your logic escapes
mmost of us.


according to the EU it has 20 official languages, soon to be 21,
and 30% of Europeans can hold a conversation in English. (dont
know at what level) Of course that 30% are the educated people.
Tshower should try going to a small town in Spain and seeing if
the garage mechanic, taxi driver or police can understand him :-)
In restaurants I hear mixed groups of educated europeans speaking
in mixed language without english taking priority. In a business
meeting english may well be used, (nobody is denying it is
becoming the world language). But spoken on the street in non
anglophone countries? Total bollox. In France the idea would be
heretical.


We were on a train in Finland from Oulu to Tampere with an hour
or so to change to the train to Turku Harbor where we were to
take a ferry to Stockholm. North of Tampere the train came to a
dead standstill in the middle of nowhere and sat, and sat, and
sat. We were getting worried aobut our connections, but all
attempts to find out from the conductor what the problem was
failed because the conductor simply didn't know any English and
my Finn is very, very skimpy.

(We had to sprint with our luggage at Tampere to just barely
catch our train to Turku, but we did make it.)


************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
 




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