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  #1181  
Old August 18th, 2006, 01:10 AM posted to rec.travel.air,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Tchiowa
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wrote:
In article . com,
(Tchiowa) wrote:

*From:* "Tchiowa"
*Date:* 16 Aug 2006 17:21:14 -0700


Dave Frightens Me wrote:
On 15 Aug 2006 18:48:12 -0700, "Tchiowa" wrote:

I found that damn near everyone I met could speak English fairly
well.

That's due to your limited experience, probably limited to touristy
areas.


No, mostly business. Sorry. You're wrong again.


What European languages, other than English, do you speak and understand
with sufficient fluency to conduct a business meeting?


I used to speak enough Portuguese to attend a meeting and understand,
but certainly not conduct it. And I haven't used Portugues for about a
decade so I've probably lost even that basic ability.

But that points out the reason behind the use of English. Other than
English there is no language that enough people from enough places
speak to conduct meetings. English has become the "lingua franca" of
business in Europe. And in fact through most of the world.

No, the Mom and Pop grocery store in a village in northern France
doesn't use it. But anyone who wants to do business throughout the EU
does. If he's serious about doing business, that is.

  #1182  
Old August 18th, 2006, 01:23 AM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Tchiowa
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Hatunen wrote:
On 17 Aug 2006 07:46:34 -0700, "Tchiowa"
wrote:


Hatunen wrote:
On 16 Aug 2006 17:52:39 -0700, "Tchiowa"
wrote:


Hatunen wrote:
On 15 Aug 2006 22:45:11 -0700, "Tchiowa"
wrote:


Europeans possession of passports is a result of hatred and bigotry
that has kept the continent at war with itself for centuries. Not
something to be proud of.

and Europeans can travel between most countries without going through
any kind of passport control.

These days, yes. But that's a recent development. The reason a lot of
Euros have passports was because that wasn't the case until recently.

Try to keep up.

As I pointed out elsewhere, there were no passports until after
WW1. The fact that they are no longer needed for much
intra-European travel means that they really only served their
purpose for about 80 years out of two millenia of European
history. You make a pretty weak case with the passport business,
espcially since you don't explain *why* passports are an
indication of bigotry and hatred.

Passports are not an indication of bigotry and hatred. I never said
that.

I could swear it was you who said:

"Europeans possession of passports is a result of hatred and
bigotry that has kept the continent at war with itself for
centuries."


I think I did. But, as I pointed out repeatedly, it's not the passport,
it's the need for the passport. It's the international boundaries.


OK.

A. Passports are not an indications of bigotry and hatred.

B. Europeans possession of passports is a result of hatred and
bigotry

So you claim that those two statements are not contradictory?


Yes. Let's try another one, should we?

A. Bed sheets are not an indication of bigotry and hatred.

B. Wearing a bedsheet in some circumstances *is* (think KKK).

Ever hear of "root cause analysis"? You should pick up a book.


Let's help you out here.

If A can cause B and B can cause C and C can cause D and D happens
then we look to see if C caused D (C might not be the only potential
cause of D). If so, did B cause C? If so did A cause B? If all those
things fall into line the A is the "root cause" of D.

In the real world. Let's say a building burns down. What caused the
building to catch fire? Turns out a generator caught fire. What caused
the generator to catch fire? Turned out a water pump bearing froze up
and sparks from the spinning shaft ignited the crankcase oil. What
cause the water pump bearing to fail? The system operator used cheap
antifreeze and didn't change it often. Why did the operator fail to
maintain the system and use cheap products? Greed.

Root cause of the fi Greed.

Now let's look at passports.

Why do so many Europeans have passports? Because they need them to
travel more than a few hours? Why do they need them to travel more than
a few hours? Because there are so many international borders in Europe.
Why are there so many international borders in Europe? Because Europe
is chopped up into a large assortment of small countries. Why is Europe
chopped up into a large assortment of small countries? Because of the
various wars over the centuries. What are the root causes of war?
Hatred, bigotry, greed, etc.

Root cause of so many Europeans having passports? The hatred, bigotry
and greed that caused the wars that created the countries that created
the borders that require the passports that they need.

What do you think caused the war? Stale wine?


Well, now. That seems to be the point we largely disagree on,
doesn't it? I say that some wars may have resulted from bigotry
and/or hatred but many wars have not; you say all wars have
resulted from bigotry and hatred.


All? Probably not. But the vast majority? Yes. Bigotry and hatred are
at the root of almost any war. As posted elsewhere I've spent a lot of
time in war zones. Including "hot shooting wars", "local insurgencies",
"cold conflicts". At the root of all of them is a bigotry and hatred.
It's difficult to make war on someone you like and respect and consider
as an equal.

  #1183  
Old August 18th, 2006, 01:28 AM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Tchiowa
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Posts: 1,374
Default Draconian vacation policies for US slave workers


Hatunen wrote:

We were on a train in Finland from Oulu to Tampere with an hour
or so to change to the train to Turku Harbor where we were to
take a ferry to Stockholm. North of Tampere the train came to a
dead standstill in the middle of nowhere and sat, and sat, and
sat. We were getting worried aobut our connections, but all
attempts to find out from the conductor what the problem was
failed because the conductor simply didn't know any English and
my Finn is very, very skimpy.


I took the ferry from Stockholm to Helsinki. Had no problem
communicating in English with the ticket staff, crew, or people at the
arrival area. Even had no problem getting someone to explain to me in
English about Ankracet (I'm sure I misspelled that).

  #1184  
Old August 18th, 2006, 01:39 AM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Tchiowa
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Posts: 1,374
Default Draconian vacation policies for US slave workers


Hatunen wrote:
On 17 Aug 2006 07:54:52 -0700, "Tchiowa"
wrote:


Hatunen wrote:
On 16 Aug 2006 17:57:36 -0700, "Tchiowa"
wrote:


As compared to what it used to be like, maybe? Which has been my
experience in 2 decades travelling to Europe fairly regularly.

Try traveling into the hinterlands a little more.


Like where? Atyrau, Kazakhstan? Riga, Latvia? Oporto, Portugal?


Is Kazakhstan in Europe?


Part of it is, yes. Atyrau is in Europe.

So, exactly what did you doin Riga and Oporto.


Riga to spend time with friends. Oporto just to spend time in Portugal.
One of my favorite countries.

And what does that have to do with the question? You tried to make a
point. Now you're switching gears.

Or are you starting like a couple of other people I've seen posting
that unless you hang out with the poor and uneducated you can't
possibly understand the culture?


Why do you assume that was my meaning?


Reference to the "hinterlands" and implication that people in the
cities somehow aren't truly part of the culture. (Paris does not equal
France but Paris is part of France and you can't understand France
without understanding Paris.)

By the by, my realtives are hardly poor and uneducated (hardly
anyone in Finland is uneducaated) but many of them don't speak
English.


Most of my relatives in Sweden speak English just fine.

But I do know that hanging out with General Motors executives
isn't the best way to understand the culture of America.
Especially since they show little grasp of it themselves.


Ah, back to the "if you're educated and successful you're not part of
the culture".

Now do you want to ask the question again from above "Why do assume
that was my meaning?"?

YOu're very
much like those Europeans who come to the USA, visit New York and
Los Angeles, and proceed to tell us what all Americans are like,
even those in Kansas and Texas and Oregon.


How about the Europeans that come to the USA over 100 times and spend
several years total in 50 cities in 1/3 of the states. Would that help?

That's pretty much what I've done in Europe.


So you say.


Do you doubt it?

It's one thing to have several years experience, it's another to
have a week's experience a hundred or so times.


That's true.

(As an example, I checked my Frequent Flyer data base. I've landed in
Paris 83 times. Yes, I got so tired of the place that the last 40 or so
I spent very little time there. Took the train to Amsterdam or Lisbon
or anywhere else I could find other than Paris.)


Well, your certainly seem to have a lot of expeerience with CDG.


Yes. And in Paris.

  #1185  
Old August 18th, 2006, 02:07 AM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Tchiowa
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Posts: 1,374
Default Draconian vacation policies for US slave workers


Hatunen wrote:
On 17 Aug 2006 08:00:38 -0700, "Tchiowa"
wrote:


Hatunen wrote:
On 16 Aug 2006 18:12:23 -0700, "Tchiowa"
wrote:



And considering the people Serbia as some kind of "lesser people"
didn't figure into that calculation?

I have no evidence of that; do you?


Yes. It's called "experience". I've spent many years of my adult life
living in war zones.


Wow. Awesome.


Yes. Learning can be "awesome". You should try it.

I learned what it takes to make war. First thing
is to de-personalize your enemy.


That happesn precisely because the hatred and bigotry is too low.
It is a result of the war, not the cause.


Wrong. It is at the very root.

To start a war of conquest like
that you first must consider your target to be unworthy of protection
and independence.

Not necessarily. That's a wild leap of logic. Not all wars were
Hitlerian, and certainly the Great War was not.


See above.


What? The great War was oneof those wars you experienced?


No. But the root cause of all wars are about the same.

You really have a hard time with logical thinking, don't you? I said
absolutely nothing that even resembled what you thought you understood.

So you calim that in 1860 Virginai didn't much like North
Carolina?


Nope. But they weren't fond of New York at all.


Quote: "The US was once a group of small political entities that
didn't much like each other." This says that they all disliked
all the others.


No it doesn't.

It's commonly said that prior to the Civil War we said "The United
States *are*" but after the war we said "The United States *is*"
(indicating a finally unified country).

It's commonly said, all right. But attemtps to document it have
demonstrated it to be untrue.


Whose attempts?


When you cited an EU law you rfused to tell me what it said oin
an apparent attempt to make me do my own homework; well, back to
you.


Fine. Tell me who made the attempt and I'll try to find it. I told you
who had the law, you tell me who made the "attempt" you referred to.

  #1186  
Old August 18th, 2006, 02:10 AM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
mrtravel[_1_]
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Tchiowa wrote:
Hatunen wrote:


We were on a train in Finland from Oulu to Tampere with an hour
or so to change to the train to Turku Harbor where we were to
take a ferry to Stockholm. North of Tampere the train came to a
dead standstill in the middle of nowhere and sat, and sat, and
sat. We were getting worried aobut our connections, but all
attempts to find out from the conductor what the problem was
failed because the conductor simply didn't know any English and
my Finn is very, very skimpy.



I took the ferry from Stockholm to Helsinki. Had no problem
communicating in English with the ticket staff, crew, or people at the
arrival area. Even had no problem getting someone to explain to me in
English about Ankracet (I'm sure I misspelled that).


It is also difficult to believe that nobody else on his train spoke English.
  #1187  
Old August 18th, 2006, 02:37 AM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Tchiowa
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Posts: 1,374
Default Draconian vacation policies for US slave workers


Hatunen wrote:
On 17 Aug 2006 08:09:52 -0700, "Tchiowa"
wrote:


Dave Frightens Me wrote:
On 16 Aug 2006 17:10:14 -0700, "Tchiowa" wrote:


After all *what*????? An editorial from a biased source quoting a
defense attorney????

I am still waiting for you to demonstrate that bias.


Let me get this straight. You're waiting for me to document the fact
that the BBC has been caught deliberately falsifying evidence to try to
discredit Blair and Bush as to the conduct of the war?


You expect others to do the homewoerk, so why shouldn't we expect
you to?

(and no, merely trying to broadly discredit the BBC doesn't count)


I don't need to try. They did that to themselves.


Cite, please?


????? Have you been sleeping the past few years? (I guess given some of
your other comments that might have actually happened.)

Andrew Gilligan? David Kelly? "Sexed up dossier"? Lord Hutton's
inquiry? You missed all that?

Here's one of probably 10,000 articles about what they pulled.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe...air/index.html

If you don't think we're at war with Islamic Fascists then you need to
wake up. The fact is that the politicians refuse to label them as
Islamic so they just say "Terrorists". But that doesn't alter the fact
that we are in a shooting war.


Among other things, you apparently have no idea of what "fascism"
actually is. The Islamic terrorists are not fascists. For the
most part, fascism is antithetical to Islam. Saddam Hussein was
close to be a fascist, but he decreed the state to be secular.


Excellent tactic. You can't find fault with the argument so you want to
debate the use of a particular word.

Works real well in High School debates.

My predjudice is getting these people on trial (IOW justice). Yours is
to avoid seeing that happen.


On trial for *what*? Most aren't accused of breaking US law. They are
being held as prisoners of war. Nothing "guilty" about that. And no
trials to hold.


They are indeed being held as prisoners of war. But that begs the
question: "Should they be held as prisoners of war?"


Good question. I think they should. But it has nothing to do with being
"guilty" of anything. Nor can we put them on trial.

During WWII, did the UK put captured German soldiers on trial or did
they simply hold them until the end of the war then send them home?


That was a declared war and both sides wore uniforms. A captured
enemy out of uniform is not a prisoner of war; that's why
Washington had Major Andre hanged.


Very good. A captured enemy out of uniform is not a prisoner of war.
Exactly Bush's argument with these people.

So now you're a Bush supporter? Amazing.

  #1188  
Old August 18th, 2006, 02:49 AM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Tchiowa
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Posts: 1,374
Default Draconian vacation policies for US slave workers


Dave Frightens Me wrote:
On 17 Aug 2006 08:09:52 -0700, "Tchiowa" wrote:


Dave Frightens Me wrote:
On 16 Aug 2006 17:10:14 -0700, "Tchiowa" wrote:


After all *what*????? An editorial from a biased source quoting a
defense attorney????

I am still waiting for you to demonstrate that bias.


Let me get this straight. You're waiting for me to document the fact
that the BBC has been caught deliberately falsifying evidence to try to
discredit Blair and Bush as to the conduct of the war?


No, I want you to demonstrate the bias you claimed existed in the
article I posted. You have misread. Again.


Misread? I said "An editorial from a biased source quoting a defense
attorney????" and that was the only reference to bias. You responded to
that line asking me to demonstrate the bias. Since the reference you
responded to was biased *source* I responded appropriately.

As far as bias in the article I did in fact show you the bias. It was
an editorial (not a news source) from a biased source (BBC on Iraq)
quoting a defense attorney (clearly biased as all lawyers representing
their clients) claiming an analysis on some alleged government data.

Bias by definition. No where in that article did anyone post any actual
government figures as you claimed they did.
you still conclude that all of them are guilty,

Learn to read. I never said anyone was "guilty" of anything.

You most certainly concluded that.


Out and out lie. Show me where I said that.


You said:
"As it always is with prisoners of war. The fact that they were
captured on a battleground is all that it takes."


I have read that sentence 3 more times, played it backwards, rearranged
the letters, translated it into about 47 languages. Can't find anywhere
where I said anyone was *guilty* of anything.

Which wasn't correct, was it?


Not according to your biased source that you refuse to challenge.

If you don't think we're at war with Islamic Fascists then you need to
wake up. The fact is that the politicians refuse to label them as
Islamic so they just say "Terrorists". But that doesn't alter the fact
that we are in a shooting war.


A shooting war? What war are you talking about?


????? 9/11? Madrid? London? Any of this ring a bell?

Terrorism is what happens when people are slapped about so much, that
they resort to extreme methods to get some semblance of justice.


I see. So bin Ladin, a millionaire son of a billionaire, was slapped
about so much that he had to resort to terrorism?

Wake up. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were wealthy or middle class and
well educated.

I don't condone that,


Actually you just did.

When you (or anyone) uses a sentence that starts something like "I
oppose terrorism" there is one and only one proper way to punctuate it.
That is with a period, dot, full stop ".". As in "I oppose terrorism."
But if you punctuate it with "but...." then you are actually condoning
it.

but the symptoms and the problems need to be
equally adressed. Simply feeding one side of it (like the USA and UK
have been doing) does nothing to stop it.


Nor does caving it do it.

You've obviously made up your mind on this one, so there's not much
point in trying to get any sense out of, or into you. That brain of
yours is in lockdown denial mode.

Pots and kettles. You clearly don't understand any of the issues but
you're not going to let that get in the way of your prejudices.

My predjudice is getting these people on trial (IOW justice). Yours is
to avoid seeing that happen.


On trial for *what*? Most aren't accused of breaking US law. They are
being held as prisoners of war. Nothing "guilty" about that. And no
trials to hold.


The war on terrorism is over, in case you hadn't noticed.


????? So the BBC lied when they reported the interrupted plan to bomb
the airliners last week?

  #1189  
Old August 18th, 2006, 02:59 AM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Carole Allen[_1_]
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On 17 Aug 2006 08:09:52 -0700, "Tchiowa" wrote:
That would be the phantoms that knocked down the Twin Towers and killed
3,000 people? The phantoms that bombed the Madrid subway? The phantoms
that bombed the UK transit system? The phantoms that were just stopped
from bombing 10 trans-Atlantic flights? *Those* phantoms?


The guys who did the Twin Towers were not Iraqi and had nothing to do
with Iraq.


  #1190  
Old August 18th, 2006, 03:53 AM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.bush
Morton Davis
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"Carole Allen" wrote in message
...
On 17 Aug 2006 08:09:52 -0700, "Tchiowa" wrote:
That would be the phantoms that knocked down the Twin Towers and killed
3,000 people? The phantoms that bombed the Madrid subway? The phantoms
that bombed the UK transit system? The phantoms that were just stopped
from bombing 10 trans-Atlantic flights? *Those* phantoms?


The guys who did the Twin Towers were not Iraqi and had nothing to do
with Iraq.

Iraq isn't about that.


 




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