Bilingual in Europe versus USA

["Followup-To:" header set to rec.travel.usa-canada.]
On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Hatunen wrote:
On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 13:24:53 -0400, Dave Smith
wrote:

spamfree wrote:

This is somewhat of a USA rant, but Europeans will understand. In
the USA, if a sign/ad includes the word bilingual, it always refers to
an ability to speak English & Spanish (and not European Spanish, but
Mexican / Central American Spanish). But in Europe, bilingual would
simply refer to an ability to speak two languages; German & Italian,
Dutch & French, etc. A European employment ad requiring bilingual
employees would always attract the query "Which two languages?"
This USA policy completely annoys some of us because if we ask that
question, "Which two languages?", we are immediately termed racists,
but in reality we are merely literalists. In any major city's Chinatown,
bilingual would more honestly refer to English & Chinese, and there are
neighborhoods in New York and Chicago where bilingual could easily
refer to English & Polish or English & Russian.

In Canada, if a job posting calls for applicants to be bilingual, it means
French and English.

You mean Quebecoise and English.

Likely meant French and English. We don't generally distinguish
among English dialects in Canada, we call them English.
Same with French.

Hatunen wrote:



In Canada, if a job posting calls for applicants to be bilingual, it means
French and English.

You mean Quebecoise and English.


True., but the Quebecois think it is French.
It's funny, but I took French in high school, had s few immersion experiences,
have spent time in Quebec and France, and had work dealt with some Quebecois and
some real French people. I can understand French in France. I can actually
communicate with people there and understand what they are telling me. When
French Canadians speak their French to me it sounds like a different language.

Tanner wrote:

[
You mean Quebecoise and English.

Likely meant French and English. We don't generally distinguish
among English dialects in Canada, we call them English.
Same with French.

Speak for yourself, but a lot of us know that there is a *******ized version of
French called Joual spoken in Canada. Then there is the Cajun French spoken by
the Acadians who left for the southern US.

In rec.travel.usa-canada Hatunen wrote:

French is not a language used in Louisiana. They use a patois
called "Cajun" which probably wouldn't be classified as French
any longer (although much of it betrays its obvious French
roots). Cajun has strayed even further from the French of
Montclam's day than has Quebecoise. Still, I suppose it's
arguable whether Cajun is a dialect of French or a distinct
language.



I beg to differ. Having traveled around LaFayette et environs, I found the
French to be perfectly understandable. Quite like the New Brunswick variety
but farther away from Quebec's 'twang'. (which I'm quite partial to by the
way). I spoke French with the locals a lot; mostly white but also black. And
yes I did have to seek them out a little. I'm tall and nordic-looking, so I
was immediately seen as some sort of furriner, to be spoken to in English
Only.

Their proficiency differed depending on those I spoke with, but in general
their French was not bad at all and amply sufficient to live in with a few
borrowed words from English (something the French from France are pretty
awkward with, prefering for example 'le shopping' to Quebec's 'le magazinage'
and 'aller magaziner').

The worst French I found in the LaFayette area was spoken by those who, well,
didn't really speak French but thought they did. What has happening there?
They were rusty. They might have spoken it at home with a relative or two but
essentially grew up in English from a certain age onward and lost most of it.

But I found a lot of folks living in French at home, at their community do's,
church affairs and so on. Many of them would not speak French to me unless I
insisted. It's a family affair, apparently.

Here in San Diego I once met some Cajuns from that area who refused to speak
French with me until I practically forced them to! Turns out they'd been
condescended-to by some snobby francais, who by the way don't pretend to be on
an equal footing with Quebec French either. The minute they realized I wasn't
going to look down my nose at them they opened-up; their French was good and
easily understandable.

Down in New Orleans I didn't find too many French-speakers. In my experience
they fell into two categories: visitors from Europe or Quebec, and the
upper-class Louisianans who tend to send their kids to school in France and
hence speak perfect Parisian French. I did run into some Louisianans who spoke
French very badly in New Orleans, which may be what imparts this impression of
it being a completely different language. And from what I've heard it's true
that in some bayou areas the loan words are more frequent and the speech even
farther away from the French. But when traveling through the bayou areas
(short trip lasting only a few days so not very useful) I found I could
convserse in French with housewives in supermarkets (mainly the pretty ones)
just fine, thank you. Were they all exceptions?

So in my experience, to lump Louisiana French into that one pigeonhole is
simply wrong. Nex

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Dave Smith wrote:
Tanner wrote:

[
You mean Quebecoise and English.

Likely meant French and English. We don't generally distinguish
among English dialects in Canada, we call them English.
Same with French.

Speak for yourself, but a lot of us know that there is a *******ized version of
French called Joual spoken in Canada. Then there is the Cajun French spoken by
the Acadians who left for the southern US.

And there are those that speak an Acadian dialect in Canada too, but
I don't see many making a big deal on the distinctions when trying
to determine whether it is English or French under discussion. They
say French.

Calling it a *******ized version is a bit of a loaded statement.

Do you speak Maritime English? Newfoundland English? West/Central dialect?

B Vaughan writes:

An American friend has a 2-year-old grandson whose father is Spanish.
They're trying to raise this little boy to be bilingual. He generally
speaks English to his mother and Spanish to his father. My friend once
heard him ask his mother for "agua" and then correct it to "water".

Small children believe that languages are attached to individuals,
rather than groups.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 19:49:15 +0000 (UTC), Tanner
wrote:

["Followup-To:" header set to rec.travel.usa-canada.]
On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Hatunen wrote:
On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 13:24:53 -0400, Dave Smith
wrote:

spamfree wrote:

This is somewhat of a USA rant, but Europeans will understand. In
the USA, if a sign/ad includes the word bilingual, it always refers to
an ability to speak English & Spanish (and not European Spanish, but
Mexican / Central American Spanish). But in Europe, bilingual would
simply refer to an ability to speak two languages; German & Italian,
Dutch & French, etc. A European employment ad requiring bilingual
employees would always attract the query "Which two languages?"
This USA policy completely annoys some of us because if we ask that
question, "Which two languages?", we are immediately termed racists,
but in reality we are merely literalists. In any major city's Chinatown,
bilingual would more honestly refer to English & Chinese, and there are
neighborhoods in New York and Chicago where bilingual could easily
refer to English & Polish or English & Russian.

In Canada, if a job posting calls for applicants to be bilingual, it means
French and English.

You mean Quebecoise and English.

Likely meant French and English. We don't generally distinguish
among English dialects in Canada, we call them English.
Same with French.

No one disputes any version of English being English, although many
feel Quebec French is quite different from French French.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

Tanner wrote:


Speak for yourself, but a lot of us know that there is a *******ized version of
French called Joual spoken in Canada. Then there is the Cajun French spoken by
the Acadians who left for the southern US.

And there are those that speak an Acadian dialect in Canada too, but
I don't see many making a big deal on the distinctions when trying
to determine whether it is English or French under discussion. They
say French.


Yep. And there are Anglos who use "I seen" instead of "I saw" and "youse" as a plural
for "you" and think they are speaking English.

Calling it a *******ized version is a bit of a loaded statement.

Actually, that was the way it was described to me by some friends visiting from
France who had trouble understanding, and who thought that much of what they could
understand was pretty bad.

Do you speak Maritime English? Newfoundland English? West/Central dialect?

That is more a matter of a slight accent and different idioms. It is still readily
identifiable as English.

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 22:54:40 +0200, Dave Frightens Me
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 19:49:15 +0000 (UTC), Tanner
wrote:

["Followup-To:" header set to rec.travel.usa-canada.]
On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Hatunen wrote:
On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 13:24:53 -0400, Dave Smith
wrote:

spamfree wrote:

This is somewhat of a USA rant, but Europeans will understand. In
the USA, if a sign/ad includes the word bilingual, it always refers to
an ability to speak English & Spanish (and not European Spanish, but
Mexican / Central American Spanish). But in Europe, bilingual would
simply refer to an ability to speak two languages; German & Italian,
Dutch & French, etc. A European employment ad requiring bilingual
employees would always attract the query "Which two languages?"
This USA policy completely annoys some of us because if we ask that
question, "Which two languages?", we are immediately termed racists,
but in reality we are merely literalists. In any major city's Chinatown,
bilingual would more honestly refer to English & Chinese, and there are
neighborhoods in New York and Chicago where bilingual could easily
refer to English & Polish or English & Russian.

In Canada, if a job posting calls for applicants to be bilingual, it means
French and English.

You mean Quebecoise and English.

Likely meant French and English. We don't generally distinguish
among English dialects in Canada, we call them English.
Same with French.

No one disputes any version of English being English,

Many people think American is quite different from English
(depending on the English in question), and many consider Scots
to be different from English.

although many feel Quebec French is quite different from French French.

Including many Frenchmen.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 22:54:24 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

B Vaughan writes:

An American friend has a 2-year-old grandson whose father is Spanish.
They're trying to raise this little boy to be bilingual. He generally
speaks English to his mother and Spanish to his father. My friend once
heard him ask his mother for "agua" and then correct it to "water".

Small children believe that languages are attached to individuals,
rather than groups.

Another scientific statement from Mixi. I'm waiting for support
for that claim, although I must admit the claim is ambiguous
enough to provide a great deal of wiggle room since a group is
composed of individuals.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *