Knee Defender

"Frank F. Matthews" wrote in message
...


Tchiowa wrote:
Frank F. Matthews wrote:

Tchiowa wrote:


There are a lot of things that I am perfectly
willing for others to do only if they do not involve an assault on my
person. Well, I might throw in a restriction against assaulting
various
family members as well but you get the drift.

That's *not* an assault on your person. That's you trying to impose
your will on others. You have the option of paying for a better seat
where the problem doesn't exist for you but you don't want to. The guy
in front paid for a seat that reclines. You paid for a seat behind a
seat that reclines. You both should get what you pay for but you want
more than what you paid for and want him to have less than what he paid
for.

In my mind it's just as much an assault as one that occurs when someone
decides to swing a bat in a space that includes my body.


No. Let's revisit that just a bit. If I rent a batting cage to practice
my batting and you rent a chair to sit on to watch but decide that your
chair isn't big enough for you so you decide to take some of the space
in my batting cage then complain if the bat hits you. That's the more
accurate scenario.

A passenger pays for a seat that reclines. The space that seat takes
up, including the space taken up during the recline, is part of what
that passenger paid for. Now you say you aren't comfortable with the
space that you paid for so you want to consume some of the space that
*he* paid for.


You still do not understand. The airline has sold space to two persons.
Each gets a seat. For the person in the rear seat to occupy the seat
their knees need space in front of the seat. The passenger in front
also has a seat which he occupies. He wants to change the space that
his seat occupies. Alas the space that he wants to use is currently
occupied by the knees of the person behind. From whence do you get the
concept that his desire to recline holds sway over the desire of the
person in the rear to retain his knees. Trying to crush the knees
forcefully is clearly assault. Are you trying to claim that the person
in the rear does not have a right to occupy the seat that he has paid
for? Or simply that he has to remove his knee caps to accommodate you?

The person in the rear paid for the space just as much as the person in
the front. However it is not possible to use any of the space that he
paid for without the space that you want to occupy.

Try to think carefully and explain your ideas. The fact that the seat
is capable of reclining does not mean that it must be able to recline.
Now if you were in A BA business class seat that had been marketed as
reclining to flat and then were given one which couldn't because of the
location of the person behind you might have a complaint. But it would
be with the airline and not with the other passenger. Alas in cattle
class the most that the airline promises is that they will transport
you. Not even when they will get you there. And certainly not that
they will get you there in comfort.

I'm in the, "Recline, but don't recline if someone's knees are crushed"
camp, but I'd like to ask you this:

How do you feel about Customers of Size who take up part of your seat
acreage? How about if the insist on raising the arm rest?

I assume you're not willing to make those kind of concessions to someone who
didn't want to purchase two seats. How is that different from requiring
recliners to not recline because the passenger behind them is a "Customer of
Height"?

Politeness has nothing to do with rights. Pushing your seatback into
the knees of another person is rude per se, as a matter of fact.
Period.

Patrick Danville wrote:
Politeness has nothing to do with rights. Pushing your seatback into
the knees of another person is rude per se, as a matter of fact.
Period.

Shoving your knees into the back of the seat in front of you trying to
stop the guy in front from reclining is rude per se, as a matter of
fact.
Period.

No one still is willing to discuss why the guy in front has to be
polite but the guy in back can be as big of a jerk as he wants to be.

Tchiowa wrote:
Frank F. Matthews wrote:

Tchiowa wrote:


snip

You still do not understand.


Well, one of us doesn't. That's for sure. Let's see who.


The airline has sold space to two persons.


Correct.


Each gets a seat.


Correct.


For the person in the rear seat to occupy the seat their knees need space in front of
the seat.


Correct. And the airline has allocated a certain amount of space for
those knees. If you buy a cheap seat in Coach
you get less space than if you buy a more expensive seat in Business or
First.


Wrong again. I have seen no documentation from any airline indicating
that the cubic space in front of my seat is allocated to the passenger
in front so that they can recline their seat. In fact on at least one
occasion when the passenger complained to the flight crew they declined
to require that the seat be able to recline.

Can you provide ANY documentation for your claim that the airline has
allocated the space?


The passenger in front also has a seat which he occupies.


Correct.


He wants to change the space that his seat occupies.


Wrong. His seat occupies space that includes the space allocated for
the recline.


Alas the space that he wants to use is currently occupied by the knees of the person
behind.


But it's not his space. Are you saying that if I rent a hotel room and
you rent the one next to me but you decide there isn't enough room for
your family you can but some of them in my room and say "that space is
currently occupied by my family"?


Hotel rooms have walls. There us no such space that you own for your
seat to recline.


From whence do you get the concept that his desire to recline holds sway over the
desire of the person in the rear to retain his knees.


Because it has little or nothing to do with his knees. As I've pointed
out repeatedly, the geometry of the seat is such that the change in
space at the level of the knees is a fraction of an inch. The true
issue is about the discomfort some people feel by having the person in
front of them simply too close. You want to work on a laptop on your
tray table. You don't want his head too close to yours.

If for whatever reason you are among the few who physically can't fit
in a Coach seat then you have 2 choices:

1) Pay more money for a better seat, or
2) Live with the discomfort.

What you don't have the right to do is to prevent other people around
you from benefitting from the seat and space that they paid for.


They haven't paid for the space.


Trying to crush the knees forcefully is clearly assault.


It clearly is not.


You do not understand assault.


Are you trying to claim that the person in the rear does not have a right to occupy the
seat that he has paid for?


Of course not. He has that right. But he doesn't have the right to
occupy his seat plus part of the seat in front of him.


Or simply that he has to remove his knee caps to accommodate you?


Silly comment.


No, that is what you are trying to do.


The person in the rear paid for the space just as much as the person in
the front. However it is not possible to use any of the space that he
paid for without the space that you want to occupy.


Again, the space for the recline belongs to the seat that is designed
to recline. Clearly.


Clearly not. Can you provide any documented evidence for your claim.


Try to think carefully and explain your ideas. The fact that the seat
is capable of reclining does not mean that it must be able to recline.
Now if you were in A BA business class seat that had been marketed as
reclining to flat and then were given one which couldn't because of the
location of the person behind you might have a complaint. But it would
be with the airline and not with the other passenger.


If the reason the seat wouldn't recline flat was because the passenger
behind was refusing to allow it even though he had exactly the space
that he had contracted for then it would be the passenger's fault. For
example I've seen cases in Business where a passenger pulled down his
carry-on in order to work on things and left it behind the seat in
front of him and that blocked a recline. The FA makes them move it.

Another example with the flat seats in Business is if you're in a 2-2-2
seating arrangement and you have the aisle seat in an outside row does
the guy next to the window have the right to tell you that you can't
recline because he feels claustrophobic when you do since he's now
blocked in?


And I suppose that he has to **** on you since he cannot go thru your
space to get to the loo.


Alas in cattle class the most that the airline promises is that they will transport
you.


Wrong. Looks at the ads. They market reclining seats in Coach. So the
exact same principle applies.


Not even when they will get you there. And certainly not that
they will get you there in comfort.

Have fun complaining to the airline.


It seems like what you don't understand is that your complaint is with
the airline, not the passenger in front of you. You don't have the leg
room you want or need so instead of complaining to the airline you
surrender (perhaps rightly, believing that the airline won't respond)
so you take it out on the guy in front of you.

If you don't fit properly in a Coach seat then, again, either pay for a
bigger seat or live with it. But it seems like too many people make the
decision not to pay for the bigger seat then refuse to accept the
responsibility for their decision.

You made a decision not to buy a bigger seat. Accept responsibility for
your decision. Don't take it out on the other guy if you made a bad
decision.

On 21 Nov 2005 01:15:37 -0800, "Tchiowa" wrote:

The whole concept of "knee pain" is a phony argument. The fact is that
in virtually any economy seat if you're under around 7' you can simply
stretch out your legs and put your feet under the seat in front of you.
When you do so then a recline will have zero effect on your knees

Huh? I don't know about your legs but mine bend at the knees, not in the
mid-thigh. And it makes virtually no difference whether they're bent at 90
or 120 degrees.

DaveM

On 2 Dec 2005 23:07:02 -0800, "Tchiowa" wrote:

The guy in front paid for a seat that reclines

No he didn't. He paid for a seat that _probably_ reclines. And he paid as
much for it as the guy at the very back who can't recline.

DaveM

On 3 Dec 2005 08:02:34 -0800, "Tchiowa" wrote:

No. Let's revisit that just a bit. If I rent a batting cage to practice
my batting and you rent a chair to sit on to watch but decide that your
chair isn't big enough for you so you decide to take some of the space
in my batting cage then complain if the bat hits you

But the chair has a facility to be moved ,so he's just using it as it was
designed.

DaveM

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 16:28:54 GMT, "Frank F. Matthews"
wrote:


Can you provide ANY documentation for your claim that the airline has
allocated the space?


I asked that and didn't get a response.

In message "PTravel"
wrote:

How do you feel about Customers of Size who take up part of your seat
acreage? How about if the insist on raising the arm rest?

I have less patience for big fat ****s as I do for tall people -- Fat
people can (with a few exceptions) do something about it if it causes
them to be unable to function in polite society.

I'm 6'3 and 300 pounds, and I count myself in the "big fat ****s"
category, but I make sure it doesn't interfere with anyone near me, even
if that means I'm sitting in an uncomfortable position.

And yes, I can put the armrest down when I'm in my seat, and no I don't
hang over it. I have broad shoulders and my arms tend to stick out a
bit, but I keep them folded up too.

--
I never fail, I just succeed at finding what doesn't work.

"DevilsPGD" wrote in message
...
In message "PTravel"
wrote:

How do you feel about Customers of Size who take up part of your seat
acreage? How about if the insist on raising the arm rest?

I have less patience for big fat ****s as I do for tall people -- Fat
people can (with a few exceptions) do something about it if it causes
them to be unable to function in polite society.

I'm 6'3 and 300 pounds, and I count myself in the "big fat ****s"
category, but I make sure it doesn't interfere with anyone near me, even
if that means I'm sitting in an uncomfortable position.

And yes, I can put the armrest down when I'm in my seat, and no I don't
hang over it. I have broad shoulders and my arms tend to stick out a
bit, but I keep them folded up too.

Well, good, more power to you, then. However, it wasn't my question. I'm
referring specifically to Customers of Size (not you) who do _not_ fit in a
single seat, but must intrude on space reserved for others. How is that
different than a Customer of Height who needs the knee room that would
otherwise be used to recline?


--
I never fail, I just succeed at finding what doesn't work.