Knee Defender

Brian wrote:
On 3 Dec 2005 08:02:34 -0800, "Tchiowa" wrote:


A passenger pays for a seat that reclines. The space that seat takes
up, including the space taken up during the recline, is part of what
that passenger paid for. Now you say you aren't comfortable with the
space that you paid for so you want to consume some of the space that
*he* paid for.

You, and a couple of others, have kept saying that it is your right to
recline even if it causes pain or injury to the person in back. Where
is that written?

You and others keep saying that it is your right to prevent the guy in
front of you from reclining even if it causes pain or injury to him.
Where is that written?

I recline in part because it's better for my back. If I sit up like a
rigid 50s school girl with a book on her head for 6 hours my back will
be killing me. So, again, (and again, and again, and again, and again,
and again, and again, and again, and again) why is it that it's rude
for me to recline for my comfort but not rude for you to block my
recline for your comfort?

To me that dilemma is resolved by the simple fact that everyone has
paid for a seat that allows a recline, the recline is part of what they
paid for, they get to do it. They have also paid for a seat that they
know is behind another seat that allows a recline. If you don't like
the guy in front of you reclining, then pay for a seat that doesn't
have a reclining seat that close in front of you (bulkhead, behind the
exit row, business class, etc.).

Quit trying to make other people responsible for your decisions.

Frank F. Matthews wrote:
Tchiowa wrote:

Correct. And the airline has allocated a certain amount of space for
those knees. If you buy a cheap seat in Coach
you get less space than if you buy a more expensive seat in Business or
First.


Wrong again. I have seen no documentation from any airline indicating
that the cubic space in front of my seat is allocated to the passenger
in front so that they can recline their seat. In fact on at least one
occasion when the passenger complained to the flight crew they declined
to require that the seat be able to recline.

Can you provide ANY documentation for your claim that the airline has
allocated the space?

Can you provide ANY documentation for your claim that the space belongs
to the guy in back?

Simple and obvious observation: Where is the button that controls the
recline? It's on the seat of the guy in front. The airline puts him in
control of the recline, not the guy in back. When the plane is
preparing for take-off and landing they announce that *you* should
raise the back of *your* seat to the upright position. They do not
instruct you to raise the back of the seat in front of you. After
take-off and reaching cruising altitude the FAs announce that *you* may
now recline *your* seat. They don't announce that *you* can decide
whether or not the guy in front of you reclines.

But it's not his space. Are you saying that if I rent a hotel room and
you rent the one next to me but you decide there isn't enough room for
your family you can but some of them in my room and say "that space is
currently occupied by my family"?

Hotel rooms have walls. There us no such space that you own for your
seat to recline.

I see. So if you are staying in a Youth Hostel and in a bunkroom you
believe that since there aren't any walls you can put your bags on the
other guy's bunk and tell him "that space is currently occupied"?

Try to think carefully and explain your ideas. The fact that the seat
is capable of reclining does not mean that it must be able to recline.
Now if you were in A BA business class seat that had been marketed as
reclining to flat and then were given one which couldn't because of the
location of the person behind you might have a complaint. But it would
be with the airline and not with the other passenger.

If the reason the seat wouldn't recline flat was because the passenger
behind was refusing to allow it even though he had exactly the space
that he had contracted for then it would be the passenger's fault. For
example I've seen cases in Business where a passenger pulled down his
carry-on in order to work on things and left it behind the seat in
front of him and that blocked a recline. The FA makes them move it.

Another example with the flat seats in Business is if you're in a 2-2-2
seating arrangement and you have the aisle seat in an outside row does
the guy next to the window have the right to tell you that you can't
recline because he feels claustrophobic when you do since he's now
blocked in?

And I suppose that he has to **** on you since he cannot go thru your
space to get to the loo.

I expected that attitude. Clearly since you don't understand the
recline situation you wouldn't understand this one. He can step over
you to get to the restroom. Yes, that inconveniences him a bit. That's
called "life".

It seems like what you don't understand is that your complaint is with
the airline, not the passenger in front of you. You don't have the leg
room you want or need so instead of complaining to the airline you
surrender (perhaps rightly, believing that the airline won't respond)
so you take it out on the guy in front of you.

If you don't fit properly in a Coach seat then, again, either pay for a
bigger seat or live with it. But it seems like too many people make the
decision not to pay for the bigger seat then refuse to accept the
responsibility for their decision.

You made a decision not to buy a bigger seat. Accept responsibility for
your decision. Don't take it out on the other guy if you made a bad
decision.

"Tchiowa" wrote:
Because it has little or nothing to do with his knees. As I've pointed
out repeatedly, the geometry of the seat is such that the change in
space at the level of the knees is a fraction of an inch. The true
issue is about the discomfort some people feel by having the person in
front of them simply too close.

I admit it is true that you say this repeatedly. I don't think it's fair
to take it as given, though. Several taller people (and some
not-so-much-taller people) don't agree.

miguel
--
Photos from 38 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu
Latest photos: Burma; Hong Kong; Macau; Amsterdam; Grand Canyon; Amman
Airports of the world: http://airport.u.nu

"Tchiowa" wrote:
Can you provide ANY documentation for your claim that the space belongs
to the guy in back?

It is shared space. Zero-sum property rights do not apply on an
airplane; no passenger is carrying deed and title for a plot of land.
The airline owns the plane, they sell people tickets for passage, and
tell them where to sit. There are no instructional diagrams adjudicating
who owns the center armrest (would you argue that each passenger owns
half of it, and nobody may allow their elbow to cross the invisible Line
of Control in the middle?) or the space beneath the seatback.

Therefore it is up to the passengers or crew to use common sense and
figure out how best to deal with space conflicts. Hopefully this means
being considerate and taking into account the needs of everyone affected.

miguel
--
Photos from 38 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu
Latest photos: Burma; Hong Kong; Macau; Amsterdam; Grand Canyon; Amman
Airports of the world: http://airport.u.nu

Miguel Cruz wrote:
"Tchiowa" wrote:
Can you provide ANY documentation for your claim that the space belongs
to the guy in back?

It is shared space. Zero-sum property rights do not apply on an
airplane; no passenger is carrying deed and title for a plot of land.
The airline owns the plane, they sell people tickets for passage, and
tell them where to sit.

And tell them what their seats are designed to do and advertize that
fact as part of the selling price of the ticket.

There are no instructional diagrams adjudicating
who owns the center armrest (would you argue that each passenger owns
half of it, and nobody may allow their elbow to cross the invisible Line
of Control in the middle?)

Absolutely!!

or the space beneath the seatback.

Actually there are. Read the handouts or the airline book and turn to
the section on how the seat works. It tells you right there that you
have control of that. There is no section (at least not one that I have
ever seen) that tells you how to control the seat in front of your.

Therefore it is up to the passengers or crew to use common sense and
figure out how best to deal with space conflicts.

That's true.

Hopefully this means
being considerate and taking into account the needs of everyone affected.

Not according to the "recline and I'll kick the back of your seat"
crowd. The only needs that they care about are theirs. They don't like
to see the top of someone's head that close to them so they make up a
whole lot of stories about suffering permanent physical disability if
anyone with 500 feet of them reclines.

DaveM wrote:
On 2 Dec 2005 23:07:02 -0800, "Tchiowa" wrote:


The guy in front paid for a seat that reclines


No he didn't. He paid for a seat that _probably_ reclines. And he paid as
much for it as the guy at the very back who can't recline.

DaveM

It is an interesting point that they do not give a discount for seats
that do not recline.

On 4 Dec 2005 22:38:13 -0800, "Tchiowa" wrote:


I recline in part because it's better for my back. If I sit up like a
rigid 50s school girl with a book on her head for 6 hours my back will
be killing me. So, again, (and again, and again, and again, and again,
and again, and again, and again, and again) why is it that it's rude
for me to recline for my comfort but not rude for you to block my
recline for your comfort?

To me that dilemma is resolved by the simple fact that everyone has
paid for a seat that allows a recline, the recline is part of what they
paid for, they get to do it. They have also paid for a seat that they
know is behind another seat that allows a recline. If you don't like
the guy in front of you reclining, then pay for a seat that doesn't
have a reclining seat that close in front of you (bulkhead, behind the
exit row, business class, etc.).

Quit trying to make other people responsible for your decisions.

So it's just your opinion that you have the right to recline into
someone's knees?
A reasonable argument can be made that seats recline so that a person
can recline if the seat in back is vacant or if there is sufficient
room.
As a flight attendant once said to a woman in front of me who
complained, "He can't cut his legs off."

On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 02:39:34 GMT, "Frank F. Matthews"
wrote:


It is an interesting point that they do not give a discount for seats
that do not recline.

It is but do you think logic will help?

On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 16:21:11 +0800, Miguel Cruz
wrote:


I admit it is true that you say this repeatedly. I don't think it's fair
to take it as given, though. Several taller people (and some
not-so-much-taller people) don't agree.

miguel

Somehow I wasn't born with the hinge in my shins that I'd need to be
able to do what he claims because that is where the bar often is.

Miguel Cruz wrote:
"Tchiowa" wrote:
Because it has little or nothing to do with his knees. As I've pointed
out repeatedly, the geometry of the seat is such that the change in
space at the level of the knees is a fraction of an inch. The true
issue is about the discomfort some people feel by having the person in
front of them simply too close.

I admit it is true that you say this repeatedly. I don't think it's fair
to take it as given, though. Several taller people (and some
not-so-much-taller people) don't agree.

miguel

Let's do the math. I don't have a coach seat right handy at my desk
right now so I'll estimate. Seat hinges roughly 4 inches below my knee.
Seat back height is around 30 inches. Seat reclines roughly 5 inches at
the top. "Similar triangles" translates to mean that the change in seat
position at the level of my knee will be 5/(30/4) which is 2/3 of one
inch. Given the padding and give in the back of the seat, unless your
knee is pressed hard against the seat in front of you when it is fully
upright 2/3 of an inch is not enough to cause any kind of discomfort or
pain. And if you are tall enough or the seat pitch is small enough that
your knees *are* pressed hard against the back of the seat when it is
fully upright then you simply don't fit in that seat and you should be
buying a bigger seat.